Lecturing linux guru slapped into place
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Well, having a domain-attached account meant you couldn't use it. Then again...
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Windows comes with two text editors pre-installed and most people install at least a third one.
Notepad, Wordpad, Word
Only one of those is a text editor.
The others are word processors. Sure, they can be used as a text editor, but so can Excel or Discourse.BTW: what happened to Joe?
I remember it being included in all the major Linux distro's, when I last really used Linux (probably kernel version 1.something).
I liked it a lot a the time, because it supported the WordStar keys I grew up with (and were supported by the Borland editors well into the 21st century).
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@marczellm said:
Please someone explain to me what "multiple active sessions" would mean in the context of an almost GUI-only operating system such as Windows. I don't understand how that could be implemented.
Multiple RDP sessions to one operating system instance.
Multiple sets of monitors and HID.
http://www.linuxtoys.org/multiseat/multiseat.html
I get the multiple RDP sessions idea, because RDP is sufficiently geeky stuff that people using it need even more geeky stuff.
But a multi-seat system? That seems like a real :WTF:. Does anyone use such a system?
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Internet coffee shops and schools (as the article explains)
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I get the multiple RDP sessions idea, because RDP is sufficiently geeky stuff that people using it need even more geeky stuff.
Or even at home, trying to admin family members' computers.
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Only very geeky people admin family member's computers through RDP, because less geeky people are afraid of such advanced stuff.
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Internet coffee shops and schools (as the article explains)
Do they really use it (on Linux), or they would use it theoretically if it was available in Windows?
Because in my experience, Internet coffee shops are dying if not already extinct, and school IT staff doesn't have a clue.
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Do they really use it (on Linux
some did.
others used a terminalserver and thinclients.
At least before computers became cheap enough that it became possible for an internet cafe to buy ~10 crappy desktops for 200$ each (including monitor and keyboard/mouse) and just set up a bunch of tables with power and RJ45 connections for people to use their laptops at. (skip the RJ45 if you want to be a wifi cafe)
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Do they really use it (on Linux), or they would use it theoretically if it was available in Windows?
There was a company back in the XP days that sold such a system to internet cafes and such. They used to advertise in the computer magazines back in the day. Microsoft sued them out of existence in short order.
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Because in my experience, Internet coffee shops are dying if not already extinct
The FWIP thread is over there
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First World-Ish Problems?
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First World-Ish Problems?
Maybe. But in my defense, neither http://www.acronymfinder.com/FWIP.html nor http://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/FWIP had anything that fitted (not even Forever Work In Progress), so I used the most thread topic related Google result I found on the first results page. (Knowing it wouldn't fit either.)
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Sure, the "guru" wasn't all to clever, but never made it personal.
Sure he did, he was just subtle about it.
The easy way to get rid of this problem is to learn basic security procedures...
That's a verbose way of saying "I blame you".
I'm not saying it's technically wrong, but then I don't know much about the technical side of this area. I know making it personal when I see it though. For one thing, if it's so easy and basic, one imagines it could be explained in a paragraph. I mean, how easy and basic are we talking? Even on the frontend with SPAs I need to know about authorisation headers and sessions, and they're rarely under my control unless I'm handling the backend as well.
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Maybe.
It started off as FWP, but someone decided to add the
iin to make it more pronounceable I suppose. You'd have to ask @ben_lubar.
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surely it would be easier to ask him?
Easy to ask. Less easy to understand the answer.
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@accalia said:
surely it would be easier to ask him?
Easy to ask. Less easy to understand the answer.
hmm... you make a compelling point.
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But a multi-seat system? That seems like a real . Does anyone use such a system?
Given the completely excessive power of even a low-end modern desktop computer compared to what's required for classroom use, multi-seat can be a big cost win for schools.
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@marczellm said:
school IT staff doesn't have a clue
thems fightin words
someone's got to be the exception that proves the rule. ;-)
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thems fightin words
I hope you're not setting out to argue that all school IT staff everywhere are clueful. It'd be too easy to falsify. (Majority being at least competent is what I'd expect, as is the normal for most professions.)
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The thing about school IT staff is that most schools can't afford what competent IT staff generally expect to make. Most schools will have access to a remote helldesk, or if they're very lucky they'll get a 5% time allocation from some poor overworked tech who spends most of their day driving around and doesn't have time to actually fix much.
I made my money in embedded systems and I'm comfortable, so I don't need to charge my school more than it takes to keep the bills paid at my house; I netadmin for fun. Which will be a bummer for the school when I go, but at least they'll have had a decade and a bit that was less painful than it would have been otherwise.
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@marczellm said:
But a multi-seat system? That seems like a real . Does anyone use such a system?
Given the completely excessive power of even a low-end modern desktop computer compared to what's required for classroom use, multi-seat can be a big cost win for schools.
Unless they teach introduction to programming in C# which requires Visual Studio which eats all that excessive power.
Come to think of it, I've been to a high school which tried to implement a similar system. All classroom computers were thin terminals, and signed in to a Linux server running virtual Windows instances. But it lagged heavily, especially during C# classes (when there are like 30 Visual Studios running inside 30 virtual machines on a single server.) So this situation could be made at least less bad, if there wasn't 30 Windows instances but 30 active sessions on a single instance. Okay I see the point now.
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30 is way too many. A school set up that way is too far down the path into diminishing returns.
A single PC serving a bench with four to six seats, though? That's a considerable cost saving, and will almost always work without noticeable lag.
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30 is way too many. A school set up that way is too far down the path into diminishing returns.
A single PC serving a bench with four to six seats, though? That's a considerable cost saving, and will almost always work without noticeable lag.
Not in my experience...
My high school had a 4-user-per-computer setup and it wasn't pretty. Everyone loading IE8 (yes, we had to use IE8) and Word at the same time pretty much brought the system to its knees. Especially for the guy in session 4 (apparently the resources were not fairly distributed so the guy in session 4 was guaranteed to have a bad time...)
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My high school had a 4-user-per-computer setup and it wasn't pretty. Everyone loading IE8 (yes, we had to use IE8) and Word at the same time pretty much brought the system to its knees.
How did they manage that without running afoul of MS licensing?
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@sloosecannon said:
My high school had a 4-user-per-computer setup and it wasn't pretty. Everyone loading IE8 (yes, we had to use IE8) and Word at the same time pretty much brought the system to its knees.
How did they manage that without running afoul of MS licensing?
I'm guessing:
- Very expensively
or - Very Luckily (i.e. didn't get caught)
- Very expensively
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This Linux server is running at the school I go to:
One time, there was an "introduction to C systems programming" course and one of the assignments was to write a shell and someone managed to make theirs allocate memory and then fork and repeat forever. But other than that, there's rarely more than 1 CPU core being used when I look at it.
Also, not sure what
-nan%CPU usage is.
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to make theirs allocate memory and then fork and repeat forever.
#!/bin/bash :(){ :|:& };:/me looks innocent
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That wouldn't allocate several gigabytes of memory, though.
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Also, not sure what -nan% CPU usage is.
It's running in reverse, i.e., it's making you do work instead of doing work for you.
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Windows Server license per computer. So yeah, probably very expensive indeed.
The multi-seat software was NComputing VSpace
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That wouldn't allocate several gigabytes of memory, though.
i'm sure it could be altered to....
i'm damn sure it could be altered to actually. Extremely easily if /tmp is mounted on tmpfs as it is in most distros these days, less easily but still doable if not.
#!/bin/bash :(){ :|:&; cat /dev/urandom > /tmp/foo & rm /tmp/foo; };:something like
sed s/a/\n/g < /dev/urandom | sort -ushould do it if tmpfs tomfoolery is cheating.#!/bin/bash :(){ :|:&; sed s/a/\n/g < /dev/urandom | sort -u & };:
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echo.+^|+>+.cmd&+/me whistles nonchalantly
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you've done this before i see.
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How did they manage that without running afoul of MS licensing?
Microsoft has Educational Licensing options that charge by headcount instead of computer count.
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Microsoft has Educational Licensing options that charge by headcount instead of computer count.
Yeah, but that is just a discounted version of their volume licensing using KMS. It does not make Windows multi-user, and the last company that tried to make desktop Windows multi-user got sued out of existence.
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that is just a discounted version of their volume licensing using KMS.
Not "just"... it allows the customer to install any number of copies of Windows for the use of the students that they paid for.
@Polygeekery said:It does not make Windows multi-user
I never claimed it did. @sloosecannon is the one that witnessed it in action, I only answered the licensing question that was raised. Since his high school actually did it, Windows must have been multi-user from the beginning.
@Polygeekery said:the last company that tried to make desktop Windows multi-user got sued out of existence.
Citrix is still alive and well.
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Since his high school actually did it, Windows must have been multi-user from the beginning.
FWIW I'm a youngn and graduated in 2012... so it wasn't that long ago. They were running a Windows Server edition too (2003 IIRC). So that's probably how they stayed within the Windows licensing rules.
Of course nowadays something like that is totally silly. A central RDP server and Raspberry Pi style thin clients would make much more sense IMO. Plus probably cost much less...
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Not "just"... it allows the customer to install any number of copies of Windows for the use of the students that they paid for.
Yes, just. You can do the same thing with KMS activation.
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Citrix is still alive and well.
-sigh- I feel like I am beating my head against the wall trying to fucking talk to you.
Desktop Windows is not multi-user according to the definition that the rest of us have agreed to. Windows Server, yes. Terminal Services running atop Windows Server, yes. VDI installs are not, thin clients are not. I looked in to the technology that @sloosecannon posted, it appears to be thin-client based. That is not multi-user desktop Windows. Not according to the definition that the rest of us humans use. Also:
Windows Server license per computer. So yeah, probably very expensive indeed.
The multi-seat software was NComputing VSpace
So seriously, you are just wrong. Quiet down son, the grown-ups are speaking.
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Windows Server license per computer. So yeah, probably very expensive indeed.
Not necessarily. TechSoup has educational/NFP pricing for dirt cheap. Enough to make me envious as a business owner dirt cheap.
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it appears to be thin-client based
I don't think they were - or if they were they did some really belgiuming weird stuff with the thin clients. One of my fellow classmates' favorite passtimes was finding the one keyboard with the media key buttons and mashing "calculator".
Due to unknown rasins and the internals of the platform, the calculator windows would appear on the screen of the first user who logged in. Repeatedly. So something in the way they handled sessions was... odd...
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0.0 $65 for Server Standard.
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Due to unknown rasins and the internals of the platform, the calculator windows would appear on the screen of the first user who logged in. Repeatedly. So something in the way they handled sessions was... odd...
That doesn't sound very multi-user to me. Paging @Jaime. ;)
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Lol - it was... The sessions were seperate (they showed up seperately on Task Manager, etc - which lead to much
funexcitement when they found the "logout" and "message" buttons). I think they screwed up something at the hardware level...
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Don't mind me, I am just pouring salt in wounds. ;)
