The FSF's statement on Windows 10



  • Spoiler: they don't like it.

    Increased public scrutiny has forced Microsoft to adjust its advertising to focus on how secure it is and how well it protects privacy. But who does it secure and protect? Certainly not the user. Since Windows 10 is nonfree software, users and independent security experts can't access the source code, so they are forced to take Microsoft's word for it that their computers are safe and their data is being used responsibly.

    Now's a bad time to be comparing security between Windows and open source, considering how many extremely dangerous security holes have been discovered in open source code in the last year or two. Guess how many of those affected Windows users? Hint: zero.

    And it hardly seems warranted to trust a company that is reported to give the NSA special security tip-offs that it could use to crack into Windows computers.

    "is reported to" is a great weasel-phrase, I'm going to have to remember that.

    Obama "is reported to" have a network of secret tunnels dug underneath Wal-Mart stores all over the US so he can meet with his fellow lizard-people invaders while planning their ultimate attack on the Illuminati.

    PROVE THAT LAST PARAGRAPH IS UNTRUE! I DARE YOU!

    Advertising companies are surely licking their chops over Windows 10's new privacy policy, which asserts the privilege to sell almost any information it wants about users, even creating a unique advertising ID for each user to sweeten the deal.

    Oh snap! That's almost 1/100th as awful as the shit Google does every goddamned day!

    By contrast, free software like the GNU/Linux operating system is developed by professional and volunteer communities working transparently, freely sharing their work with each other and the world.

    Right; the resulting software just isn't very good.

    Users have meaningful influence over the software development process and complete choice over what code they run.

    Anybody who's tried to use a bug tracker for an open source product to make a suggestion (or even point out a bug) knows this is a flat-out lie.

    If you are thinking about buying a new computer, check out the laptops we certify through our Respects Your Freedom program.

    Ok, why not.

    Yesss! I can buy a "Libreboot X200 Gluglug". It's the laptop I always wanted! It's gonna make all the honeys at the club look my way when I let slip that I compute on a "Gluglug".

    Finally an open source laptop made independen--

    The Libreboot X200 is a modified ThinkPad X200

    Oh. Well at least the specs are pretty go--

    Core 2 Duo P8400 2.26GHz processor or higher
    Graphics: Intel GMA 4500MHD
    Screen: 12.1" 1280×800 TFT LCD

    Jesus. My 2012 Aspire S7 kicks this things' ass.

    Think I'm gonna pass on the "Gluglug" and go for the Surface 4, FSF. Sorry.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    Oh snap! That's almost 1/100th as awful as the shit Google does every goddamned day!

    QFT!

    Apple and Android have both had the "advertising ID" thing for years now. This is just a relic of the "Unified windows 10 on all devices" thing

    Also, the open source community makes all these complaints about "not being able to see the source code of windows", yet anyone with the right dreamspark subscription can download the checked/debug version of the kernel, download the debugging symbols, and step through every single function call the kernel makes and see every bit of data that gets passed around.

    If the open source guys really thought seeing the source code mattered, they would inspect it



  • @mrguyorama said:

    @blakeyrat said:
    Oh snap! That's almost 1/100th as awful as the shit Google does every goddamned day!

    QFT!

    Apple and Android have both had the "advertising ID" thing for years now. This is just a relic of the "Unified windows 10 on all devices" thing

    Don't forget Verizon Wireless and AT&T!



  • Yup, and in each and every platform you can technically turn it off.

    And then there is the shit facebook does



  • @blakeyrat said:

    Oh snap! That's almost 1/100th as awful as the shit Google does every goddamned day!

    That's why I run an ad blocker.



  • Doesn't stop the tracking, just the ads



  • @blakeyrat said:

    Advertising companies are surely licking their chops over Windows 10's new privacy policy, which asserts the privilege to sell almost any information it wants about users, even creating a unique advertising ID for each user to sweeten the deal.

    Hasn't this been there for a while, and can be switched off?



  • @mrguyorama said:

    Yup, and in each and every platform you can technically turn it off.

    And then there is the shit facebook does

    Did Verizon Wireless do that yet? They said they were finally going to allow people to disable it (rather than just not share/collect data about you directly), but the site I used to use to check the header has gone offline, and I CBA to write one to replicate the function.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    Now's a bad time to be comparing security between Windows and open source

    I can't see the code, how do I know it's secure.

    "Results".

    @blakeyrat said:

    PROVE THAT LAST PARAGRAPH IS UNTRUE! I DARE YOU!

    "Reliable source - Simply a source that has been published" - Wikipedia.

    But, the article is about what happened in my backyard, I'm the owner of the backyard, and the article got all the facts wrong.

    "You're not a reliable source" - Wikipedia.

    #Solar freakin roads

    @blakeyrat said:

    Oh snap! That's almost 1/100th as awful as the shit Google does every goddamned day!

    I don't want my information shared.

    Posts on Facebook "You should come try my bbq at [address]"
    Downloads App "This app has access to your brain" Clicks Approve

    @blakeyrat said:

    Right; the resulting software just isn't very good.

    But I can haz linux that boots from a stick.
    Can winblows boot from a stick.

    @blakeyrat said:

    developed by professional and volunteer communities working transparently

    in their free time...

    Oh what, you're not going to approve my pull request?

    Fuck you!!!

    forks repo

    Come try my flavor of Linux.



  • You have to actually contact tech support, it's a massive pain in the ass and not really worth it IMO, but it is technically possible


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @blakeyrat said:

    PROVE THAT LAST PARAGRAPH IS UNTRUE! I DARE YOU!

    With enough construction equipment, you could. Just dig a moat underneath every Wal-Mart.

    SOMEONE TELL RMS!



  • @mrguyorama said:

    You have to actually contact tech support, it's a massive pain in the ass and not really worth it IMO, but it is technically possible

    They said the opt-out on the website would eventually do it, too.



  • But you didn't prove it wasn't reported.

    You proved that the tunnels didn't exist

    At minimum, Blakey, himself, reported it.

    So the statement

    It is reported that tunnels...

    is true.

    But it essentially a tautology.


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @blakeyrat said:

    Obama "is reported to" have a network of secret tunnels dug underneath Wal-Mart stores all over the US so he can meet with his fellow lizard-people invaders while planning their ultimate attack on the Illuminati.

    PROVE THAT LAST PARAGRAPH IS UNTRUE! I DARE YOU!

    How can we prove it untrue? You just reported it to us hence it is "reported".

    My sources actually tell me the tunnels were not dug but actually drilled but I guess thats what you get for being on the other side of the pond.

    Also: I am kind of disappointed. I was hoping for a Feminist Software Foundation statement on Win10 after reading that title.

    Filed Under: You could call your laptop "gluglug" if you wanted... If I ever need a new name for my wireless, I might as well choose that



  • @Kuro said:

    Feminist Software Foundation

    Windows are made out of glass.

    Glassblowers were mostly men, because women couldn't own businesses.

    Windows is sexist.

    And if you deny that women didn't contribute to glassblowing, you're sexist.

    But if you deny that they couldn't contribute enough, because of the patriarchy, you're sexist.

    In fact, if you make a statement about glassblowing, and you're not a feminist..... you're sexist.





  • @blakeyrat said:

    "Libreboot X200 Gluglug"

    Holy shit, that's not a made up name.

    Gluglug! Can't go wrong with a Gluglug! The brand you can trust, Gluglug! Try our new Libreboot burritos, now with 100% organic tomatoes!



  • @blakeyrat said:

    Now's a bad time to be comparing security between Windows and open source, considering how many extremely dangerous security holes have been discovered in open source code in the last year or two.

    This statement has always bothered me. How were the vulnerabilities in open-source stuff found? Was it by 3rd parties examining the source code? Which was possible because it was open-source?

    If the source wasn't available, those bugs would still be there and there'd be that many fewer reasons to think of it as less secure. Even though it would be less secure in reality.

    Weird.



  • @Bort said:

    How were the vulnerabilities in open-source stuff found? Was it by 3rd parties examining the source code? Which was possible because it was open-source?

    Probably some were. Obviously, those were less likely to be big news.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    This post is deleted!

  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @xaade said:

    In fact, if you make a statement about glassblowing, and you're not a feminist..... you're sexist.

    Fixed.



  • @anonymous234 said:

    @blakeyrat said:
    "Libreboot X200 Gluglug"

    Holy shit, that's not a made up name.

    Gluglug! Can't go wrong with a Gluglug! The brand you can trust, Gluglug! Try our new Libreboot burritos, now with 100% organic tomatoes!

    Seriously? In Germany, "Gluglug" is an onomatopoeia for the sound a drowning man makes.



  • @boomzilla said:

    Probably some were. Obviously, those were less likely to be big news.

    The others were discovered when someone was the victim of an exploit I guess?

    What is the potential of a hybrid approach - commercial, open source software that requires a license to run legally? Finding bugs would be much easier and a for-profit company would have enough money to pay the bug bounties.



  • Isn't that what RedHat kind of does?



  • @Bort said:

    The others were discovered when someone was the victim of an exploit I guess?

    Just like a lot of Windows vulnerabilities, presumably.

    @Bort said:

    What is the potential of a hybrid approach - commercial, open source software that requires a license to run legally? Finding bugs would be much easier and a for-profit company would have enough money to pay the bug bounties.

    Seems to work for google and chrome. Of course, the key is to get those people interested in looking at stuff and finding the bugs. The black hats have an obvious motivation. There are also issues of scarcity of people actually capable of competently reviewing code.



  • @mrguyorama said:

    Also, the open source community makes all these complaints about "not being able to see the source code of windows", yet anyone with the right dreamspark subscription can download the checked/debug version of the kernel, download the debugging symbols, and step through every single function call the kernel makes and see every bit of data that gets passed around.

    To be fair, if Microsoft did add a backdoor to Windows, you would expect them to remove it from the checked versions.



  • This is a good point. Of course Microsoft doesn't need a backdoor, they store your account details and password for windows 8 and up on their servers, they can literally remote in and do whatever.

    But I'm not that worried about it.

    Also, screw the whole "use your windows live ID to log on" thing. Why? Why is that a good idea?



  • It's pretty incredibly nice when you have multiple laptops, a desktop, a tablet, a phone, and a console that all synchronize.



  • What exactly do they synchronize? Does it keep all my TB's of data shadowed to every single device? Does it work across multiple windows versions?



  • I can take a picture with my Windows Phone and it's immediately available on my desktop, laptop, and tablet. I don't have to do anything.

    It also synchronizes my desktop backgrounds across all devices. I'm unsure of the practicality of that feature, but it's there.



  • @mott555 said:

    I can take a picture with my Windows Phone and it's immediately available on my desktop, laptop, and tablet. I don't have to do anything.

    This is the basic OneDrive stuff, and is pretty nice.

    @mott555 said:

    It also synchronizes my desktop backgrounds across all devices. I'm unsure of the practicality of that feature, but it's there.

    This, plus app ownership, wifi passwords, and a few other things. It's mostly small conveniences, because they don't want you thinking about the fact that you're switching devices.



  • So I can replicate the exact features it provides a million different ways? Okay good, I was worried I was actually missing out.

    I have a Windows 7 gaming pc, a windows 7 laptop, and a Server 2012R2 system. It really would be useless to me.

    However I can see it working well if I had a windows phone. How is it BTW?



  • But wouldn't you rather trade all that for the opportunity to be 100% free with a laptop from 2008?



  • @mrguyorama said:

    windows phone. How is it BTW?

    10 is horribly broken in the current beta version. But it's a great system in general.



  • I have never owned one, I've stayed in the motorala droid family, which I also love



  • @xaade said:

    Solar freakin roads

    Fuck you plant math article!

    @Rhywden said:

    Seriously? In Germany, "Gluglug" is an onomatopoeia for the sound a drowning man makes.

    It kind of is in the US also.

    @mott555 said:

    It also synchronizes my desktop backgrounds across all devices.

    If you install a Windows Store app on one device, it gets installed on all the others (that support it) also. And its settings are synchronized between all of them. It's handy.

    @hungrier said:

    But wouldn't you rather trade all that for the opportunity to be 100% free with a laptop from 2008?

    That's the part that bothers me the most. IT'S NOT EVEN A NEW LAPTOP! It's a refurb of a Lenovo! A shitty Lenovo that, even when it was made was barely out of the "Netbook" ghetto. Jesus.

    And that's the only laptop model the FSF certifies.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    And that's the only laptop model the FSF certifies.

    Knowing what I've heard about Stallman, it's probably the only model in the world that has "free" (as in GPL-compliant) BIOS, disk firmware, chip design, etc. As if anyone would actually care to inspect their open-source BIOS code...



  • Right; because that freedom's a lot more important than the freedom of the one notch from slavery Chinese sweatshop laborers Lenovo laptops are made by.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    And that's the only laptop model the FSF certifies.

    According to my in-depth research (one google search leading to a forum thread) there was also a Gluglug x60, which doesn't exist on Gluglug's page anymore but you can read about here

    [spoiler]it's from 2006[/spoiler]



  • Richard Stallman is an idiot, and the FSF is run by idiots. I say that as someone who doesn't totally hate their ideas, I just find them completely unrealistic and pointless. Plus, the fact it's open source doesn't make software any more private. OSS is just mob rule in disguise, you can do anything if you convince enough people to agree with you (or look the other way).



  • Yeah, it's "Freedom" as in "Free to do whatever you want as long as it falls within this weird restrictive ruleset mandated by Richard Stallman", or, an odd form of bondage labeled "freedom".

    I much prefer the MIT/BSD licenses to GPL. You're actually free to do what you want under those licenses.



  • @mott555 said:

    Yeah, it's "Freedom" as in "Free to do whatever you want as long as it falls within this weird restrictive ruleset mandated by Richard Stallman", or, an odd form of bondage labeled "freedom".

    I much prefer the MIT/BSD licenses to GPL. You're actually free to do what you want under those licenses.

    Not as free as the WTFPL:


                DO WHAT THE FUCK YOU WANT TO PUBLIC LICENSE
                        Version 2, December 2004
    
     Copyright (C) 2004 Sam Hocevar <sam@hocevar.net>
    
     Everyone is permitted to copy and distribute verbatim or modified
     copies of this license document, and changing it is allowed as long
     as the name is changed.
    
                DO WHAT THE FUCK YOU WANT TO PUBLIC LICENSE
       TERMS AND CONDITIONS FOR COPYING, DISTRIBUTION AND MODIFICATION
    
      0. You just DO WHAT THE FUCK YOU WANT TO.
    



  • @blakeyrat said:

    Now's a bad time to be comparing security between Windows and open source, considering how many extremely dangerous security holes have been discovered in open source code in the last year or two. Guess how many of those affected Windows users? Hint: zero.

    Your other points have a point, but you might like to edit this one.



  • I want to change it without changing the name!

    @rad131304 said:

    and changing it is allowed as long
    as the name is changed.

    Aw, fuck.



  • @PWolff said:

    Your other points have a point, but you might like to edit this one.

    I do not.



  • This is how I interpreted it.

    @blakeyrat said:

    how many extremely dangerous security holes have been discovered in open source code [ended up] affect[ing] Windows users. Hint: zero



  • Yes it changes the meaning of my paragraph if you edit out several critical words. Thanks for that I guess.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @mrguyorama said:

    Why is that a good idea?

    You can debate whether it's a good idea or not, but by storing information on their servers, if you move to a new computer, your shit can follow you, like a roaming profile, or the way you can move to a new Apple/Android phone by just putting in your email address.



  • Then I misunderstood.

    I interpreted as you saying that Open Source security holes did not affect window's users.

    And I interpreted @PWolff as interpreting as you saying that Windows didn't create their own security holes, and therefore Window's users weren't affected by any security holes.

    Now, I'm not sure.



  • @xaade said:

    I interpreted as you saying that Open Source security holes did not affect window's users.

    That is what I did say. It was more obvious in the version before you chopped it to shit and back for... reasons? But since you didn't say what those reasons were, or in fact provide any commentary at all other than the non-word "reread" I had no fucking clue what you were trying to say.

    @xaade said:

    And I interpreted @PWolff as interpreting as you saying that Windows didn't create their own security holes, and therefore Window's users weren't affected by any security holes.

    I also have no fucking clue what PWolff is fucking talking about as he's another one of those douchenozzles who will just post bullshit like "you might want to edit this" without ACTUALLY COMMUNICATING ANYTHING USEFUL ME AT ALL and I want him to die.

    It's like being FrostCat'ed by two morons simultaneously.


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