Planned Parenthood is in Denial


  • mod

    Continuing the discussion from 💡 The good ideas thread, with a nice searchable name:

    @lolwhat said:

    And then there were three:

    ObTheEvilIdeasThreadIs :arrow_double_down: :smiling_imp:

    How long is PP going to continue denying that the are making a profit from this? If they were just trying to "cover expenses", they wouldn't be negotiating prices (as shown in the first two videos) or getting a percentage of the fees from the companies that do the harvesting (as claimed in the newest video). The price would be the price, just enough to cover expenses, and that would be it. No negotiating. No fee percentage.

    This is getting ridiculous.



  • It's Fox News reviewing something Republicans hate. Take it with a grain of salt.


  • Fake News

    @abarker said:

    How long is PP going to continue denying that the are making a profit from this?

    And how long will the Progressivists continue to cover for them?


  • Fake News

    @ben_lubar said:

    It's Fox News reviewing something Republicans hate. Take it with a grain of salt.

    Did you watch this video, or the one before that, or the one before that? :trollface: I can guarantee that plenty of other videos documenting Planned Parenthood's profiteering are coming down the line.



  • Generally, I don't click links to news stories that are posted here unless they're actually topics that interest me.



  • @ben_lubar said:

    It's Fox News reviewing something Republicans hate. Take it with a grain of salt.

    Hey @boomzilla, someone here doesn't like Fox News! :trolleybus:



  • @abarker said:

    If they were just trying to "cover expenses", they wouldn't be negotiating prices (as shown in the first two videos) or getting a percentage of the fees from the companies that do the harvesting (as claimed in the newest video). The price would be the price, just enough to cover expenses, and that would be it. No negotiating. No fee percentage.

    I don't get your argument. Are you saying not-for-profits aren't supposed to try to get more money? Are you saying there can't be any possible incentive to negotiate other than someone taking a cut - say, wanting to open a new office, or do a PSA campaign?

    If they have a case, the courts at your country were still open last time I checked.


  • Fake News

    @ben_lubar said:

    Generally, I don't click links to news stories that are posted here unless they're actually topics that interest me.

    Of course, PP receives federal funding, so whatever they do with that money (like buying a Lambo) certainly interests me...


  • mod

    @Maciejasjmj said:

    I don't get your argument. Are you saying not-for-profits aren't supposed to try to get more money? Are you saying there can't be any possible incentive to negotiate other than someone taking a cut - say, wanting to open a new office, or do a PSA campaign?

    That's part of it. The second video showed a Planned Parenthood rep saying something along the lines "We may ask for more later. After all, I want to get a Lamborghini," without any indication that she was joking. Even if she was joking, that's a horrible joke to make in such a situation. Assuming she wasn't joking, that definitely goes beyond covering expenses or getting enough to open a new location. That is an attempt to profit.

    In addition, federal law here in the US forbids them from asking anything more than what is necessary to cover the expenses involved in obtaining the organs. If they were trying to do that, the price would be pretty much set. But they are negotiating to get as much as they can, which definitely looks like a violation of the law.

    @Maciejasjmj said:

    If they have a case, the courts at your country were still open last time I checked.

    And that is why there is a Congressional inquiry.


  • Grade A Premium Asshole

    @abarker said:

    How long is PP going to continue denying that the are making a profit from this? If they were just trying to "cover expenses", they wouldn't be negotiating prices (as shown in the first two videos) or getting a percentage of the fees from the companies that do the harvesting (as claimed in the newest video). The price would be the price, just enough to cover expenses, and that would be it. No negotiating. No fee percentage.

    This is getting ridiculous.

    I dismissed it all as bullshit as soon as I heard the source. I don't mean Faux News either. I am talking about that fucking asshat James O'Keefe. Nothing he says can be believed, and you can safely wager that anything coming from his organization is a lie.


  • Fake News

    @Polygeekery said:

    I dismissed it all as bullshit as soon as I heard the source.

    So you're saying the videos are fabricated?


  • mod

    @lolwhat said:

    @Polygeekery said:
    I dismissed it all as bullshit as soon as I heard the source.

    So you're saying the videos are fabricated?

    Well obviously! It's all an elaborate ploy by PP to show that they desperately need more government funding!

    :trolleybus:


  • Grade A Premium Asshole

    @lolwhat said:

    So you're saying the videos are fabricated?

    No, I am saying that asshole attended the same creative editing classes that Michael Moore did.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @abarker said:

    That's part of it. The second video showed a Planned Parenthood rep saying something along the lines "We may ask for more later. After all, I want to get a Lamborghini," without any indication that she was joking.

    More people need to understand that non-profit doesn't mean no one's getting paid. It just means that they don't have to pay shareholders or taxes.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @antiquarian said:

    non-profit doesn't mean no one's getting paid

    QFT


  • mod

    @antiquarian said:

    @abarker said:
    That's part of it. The second video showed a Planned Parenthood rep saying something along the lines "We may ask for more later. After all, I want to get a Lamborghini," without any indication that she was joking.

    More people need to understand that non-profit doesn't mean no one's getting paid. It just means that they don't have to pay shareholders or taxes.

    I understand that. If this were the only point of contention, then there wouldn't be much to complain about, other than the morality, which we could go back and forth on forever. But that's just evidence that they are looking to get more out of the deal than "covering expenses". Which goes to supporting the second point I made:

    @abarker said:

    federal law here in the US forbids them from asking anything more than what is necessary to cover the expenses involved in obtaining the organs.

    That woman had nothing to do with obtaining the organs. She should not be getting a cut of the money from selling the organs, legally speaking. Even if you define what she's doing as part of the "obtaining" process, she doesn't contribute enough to earn a Lambo from the sale of the organs.

    In addition, that same woman made a point of indicating that she would ask her doctors to make an effort to preserve the more "desireable" organs, which is another illegal practice. Abortions are not permitted to be performed with the intended goal of harvesting specific organs. I imagine that is because doing so increases the risk of a partial birth abortion, which is an illegal practice.

    tl;dr: If my first point were given in isolation, you might have something to argue, but it wasn't. The videos currently available indicate that Planned Parenthood is violating the law.


  • Grade A Premium Asshole

    @abarker said:

    I understand that. If this were the only point of contention, then there wouldn't be much to complain about, other than the morality, which we could go back and forth on forever. But that's just evidence that they are looking to get more out of the deal than "covering expenses". Which goes to supporting the second point I made:

    Have you seen the actual figures? PP released them, and they certainly look like "just covering expenses" levels of reimbursement to me. They are certainly not revenue generators. This whole thing is a very creatively edited ploy by the asshole O'Keefe. Remember him? He was behind the Acorn videos that got everyone all riled up and turned out to be nothing at all. Same shit is happening here.

    @abarker said:

    That woman had nothing to do with obtaining the organs. She should not be getting a cut of the money from selling the organs, legally speaking. Even if you define what she's doing as part of the "obtaining" process, she doesn't contribute enough to earn a Lambo from the sale of the organs.

    I did not look in to it real heavily, but she went to the mostly fictitious "Center for Medical Progress" to tell her story. Another O'Keefe shell company. She has no credibility to me. That man does not know what the truth is.

    @abarker said:

    In addition, that same woman made a point of indicating that she would ask her doctors to make an effort to preserve the more "desireable" organs, which is another illegal practice. Abortions are not permitted to be performed with the intended goal of harvesting specific organs. I imagine that is because doing so increases the risk of a partial birth abortion, which is an illegal practice.

    -sigh- What you are saying here is only partially true, and the relevant bit is not the true part. As soon as a woman decides to have an abortion, then it is perfectly legal to do so in such a way as to preserve as much as possible for medical usage (in a very small number of states only). Getting pregnant and then having an abortion for the sole purpose of providing tissue would be illegal, that is not what is happening here.

    @abarker said:

    tl;dr: If my first point were given in isolation, you might have something to argue, but it wasn't. The videos currently available indicate that Planned Parenthood is violating the law.

    Yeah, if you believe anything that O'Keefe says. The guy is a distasteful asshole, who lies, cheats and steals in order to promote his own message.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_O'Keefe

    And here you are, helping him further his cause...



  • @abarker said:

    That is an attempt to profit.

    That sounds like a rep trying to steal from their employer, I doubt PP has as a goal itself getting this woman a Lambo. Yes, there's corruption everywhere. Shocking news.


  • mod

    @Polygeekery said:

    I did not look in to it real heavily, but she went to the mostly fictitious "Center for Medical Progress" to tell her story. Another O'Keefe shell company. She has no credibility to me. That man does not know what the truth is.

    You're thinking of the woman from the third video. I'm talking about the woman from the second video. The one who wants the Lambo.



  • @abarker said:

    The one who wants the Lambo.

    In her defense, wanting a Lambo is a worthy goal.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place


  • Grade A Premium Asshole

    @abarker said:

    You're thinking of the woman from the third video. I'm talking about the woman from the second video. The one who wants the Lambo.

    And you leave no room for the possibility that she may have been speaking facetiously? Look over the reimbursement figures for these operations. Even if you were to think that it was 100% profit and 0% overhead and all proceeds went to her...it would take a fucking fuckload of procedures to buy a Lamborghini.

    This guy is a master at creatively editing things to push his point. You are smarter than that, don't fall for it.



  • The Lambo comment was gallows humor - they know they're not making that level of profit off of the limbs, organs, and offals of small children. In fact, if you watch the unedited full videos or read the transcripts (bottom of the page), you'll see that they are very concerned to get only enough payment that they don't appear to be profiting off the sale of these organs.

    The reason, of course, is because it would be bad press if they appeared to be selling organs. Of course, when you have to worry that what you are doing may be perceived as selling the organs of recently deceased children you might have a systemic organizational problem. "Oh gosh Cecile, do you think we're the baddies?"


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @Maciejasjmj said:

    Are you saying not-for-profits aren't supposed to try to get more money?

    Well, you're not actually allowed to sell fetal body parts. All you're supposed to be able to do is recoup your costs. When you're negotiating how much you're getting, as is going on in this video, what's really happening but isn't stated, is they ARE selling the parts.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @Polygeekery said:

    No, I am saying that asshole attended the same creative editing classes that Michael Moore did.

    How did he creatively edit the entire unedited video, that was posted at the same time as the short version was posted?

    Just because you dislike the guy doesn't mean everything he says is a lie.


  • Grade A Premium Asshole

    @FrostCat said:

    How did he creatively edit the entire unedited video, that was posted at the same time as the short version was posted?

    Just because you dislike the guy doesn't mean everything he says is a lie.

    He didn't. He is just counting on idiots getting outraged and not watching it.


  • Grade A Premium Asshole

    @FrostCat said:

    When you're negotiating how much you're getting, as is going on in this video, what's really happening but isn't stated, is they ARE selling the parts.

    Not necessarily.

    Let's remove fetuses from the equation. Let's say you and I are negotiating a transaction to sell widgets. Due to raisins, I am not allowed to turn a profit from the transaction, but you lowball me and put try to set a price well below what my costs are. So, I try to get a higher price.

    That is just one way that this could have went, and likely did considering the fact that in the unedited version of the video the person said over and over again things like:

    “Affiliates are not looking to make money by doing this. They’re looking to serve their patients and just make it not impact their bottom line.”

    “No one’s going to see this as a money making thing.”

    “Our goal, like I said, is to give patients the option without impacting our bottom line. The messaging is this should not be seen as a new revenue stream, because that’s not what it is.”

    But still, fucking idiots watch the edited video, get all enraged because they see it as Planned Parenthood turning a huge profit on fetal tissue and don't even bother watching the unedited version, because they are fucking easily-swayed idiots.

    The fact of the matter is, the reimbursement amount is $30-$100 per specimen amount. Not exactly barn burning numbers here, and certainly not the unit costs that sends one to the Lamborghini dealership.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @Polygeekery said:

    The fact of the matter is, the reimbursement amount is $30-$100 per specimen amount. Not exactly barn burning numbers here, and certainly not the unit costs that sends one to the Lamborghini dealership.

    Ah, got it. So you're OK with chopping up babies. Because in the end that's what this is coming down to. We're constantly told by anti-life advocates that this is just a bit of tissue, not a human at all, who cares if we excise it, after all, it's no worse than clipping a toenail.

    The fact that you can cut up these parts off that worthless tissue and sell them proves they're not just worthless tissue. Whining about how this video's fake is a big distraction from the issue.


  • Grade A Premium Asshole

    Ah, got it. So you're a pro-life nutcase?

    No, I am not "OK with chopping up babies", but I am also not OK with fucking idiots and liars trying to kill the one organization where women of any economic circumstance can go to get gynecological visits and birth control (which tends to have the ability to prevent abortions...).


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @Polygeekery said:

    So you're a pro-life nutcase?

    Well, I would disagree with the nutcase part. Also, let's not forget the vast, vast, majority of what PP does is abortions.


  • Grade A Premium Asshole

    @FrostCat said:

    Whining about how this video's fake is a big distraction from the issue.

    No, the video being fake is the distraction from the issue.


  • Grade A Premium Asshole

    @FrostCat said:

    Well, I would disagree with the nutcase part.

    And you would be wrong.


  • Grade A Premium Asshole

    @FrostCat said:

    Also, let's not forget the vast, vast, majority of what PP does is abortions.

    Yeah, OK, now you are just being fucking retarded. It is not even in the double digits of their budget. If you choose to just lie, I will bow out of this conversation as the level of crazy is a bit more than I can withstand.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @Polygeekery said:

    And you would be wrong.

    Says the guy who's not overly bothered by mass baby julienning.



  • @Kian said:

    In her defense, wanting a Lambo is a worthy goal.

    Disagree. High maintenance costs, exotic parts, etc. For the same price, you could pick two or three of these and spend the rest on performance upgrades.


  • Grade A Premium Asshole

    @FrostCat said:

    Also, let's not forget the vast, vast, majority of what PP does is abortions.

    Three percent of all Planned Parenthood health services are abortion services.

    Three percent is not what any rational person would call a "vast, vast majority". Only nutcases would say that. Nutcases who can't grasp numbers.


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    :popcorn:



  • @Polygeekery said:

    I am also not OK with [people] trying to kill the one organization where women of any economic circumstance can go to get gynecological visits and birth control

    Because none of these organizations exist, huh?

    The search term was "gynecologist charity clinic" if you care to look further for the unicorns that could. not. possibly. be. out. there.


  • :belt_onion:

    oh yay the foxnews weighs in. NOW IT"S TRUE GUYZ


  • :belt_onion:

    @Polygeekery said:

    This guy is a master at creatively editing things to push his point. You are smarter than that, don't fall for it.

    Have you read any other politically based links that he posts? I've seen 2 now, and both of them are about the worst of the worst in credibility. The last one I saw was entirely fabricated article from a random right-wing internet trash mag. Fox News is a step UP.


  • :belt_onion:

    @Polygeekery said:

    Three percent is not what any rational person would call a "vast, vast majority". Only nutcases would say that. Nutcases who can't grasp numbers.

    of course he can't grasp the numbers, they go against his ideology.


  • Fake News

    :fire: :popcorn:


  • :belt_onion:

    careful, once they bring down PP, they'll start going after those 6 if any of them happen to use the A word once.



  • @FrostCat said:

    All you're supposed to be able to do is recoup your costs.

    Costs of that particular procedure, or overall activity costs? Because if the former, they'd need to be cooking their books even if they got more money, and if the latter, I believe there's still a lot to recoup.

    And even in the first case, maybe they weren't getting enough to get reimbursed for the whole procedure?

    @abarker said:

    The second video showed a Planned Parenthood rep saying something along the lines "We may ask for more later. After all, I want to get a Lamborghini," without any indication that she was joking.

    So the crime is not having a sarcastic enough tone?

    @abarker said:

    Even if she was joking, that's a horrible joke to make in such a situation.

    So the crime is making bad jokes? Man, we'd all be in Shawshank by now if that was the case.

    @FrostCat said:

    So you're OK with chopping up babies.

    See? Now we got to what's actually outrageous about this for you.

    Frankly, even after watching the video, I see nothing particularly illegal in that (except that juxtaposing the out-of-context snippets like this should be outlawed). The Lamborghini joke? Come on, they're getting like $300 per fetus, and that's probably the top, not the average. And they still have costs to cover.

    I think you guys just did an epic whoosh on this one.



  • @Polygeekery said:

    You are smarter than that

    Cite please



  • @FrostCat said:

    Says the guy who's not overly bothered by mass baby julienning

    #worsethanhitler


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @lolwhat said:

    :fire: :popcorn:

    Burnt popcorn? Disgusting!


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @FrostCat said:

    Says the guy who's not overly bothered by mass baby julienning.

    Not that your statement deserves any reply, but: Have you ever considered there might be a difference between not being bothered by abortions and not wanting to deny women the right to have one?

    <I feel like I'm going to regret this reply pretty soon ...



  • @Polygeekery said:

    Three percent is not what any rational person would call a "vast, vast majority".

    Except that that number doesn't travel well:

    A service is a discrete clinical interaction, such as the administration of a
    physical exam or STI test or the provision of a birth control method. In 2013,
    Planned Parenthood health centers saw 2.7 million patients, who collectively
    received 10.6 million services during 4.6 million clinical visits.
    ~ Planned Parenthood 2013-2014 Annual Report, page 19, footnote #6

    Given that Planned Parenthood performed 327,653 abortions in 2013 that means that effectively ~12% of their patients were abortion-only. For comparison, they did 1,880 adoption referrals in 2013, a grand total of ~0.06963% of their patients.

    Still not a majority of their services (for that you have to go count every STD test, treatment, and contraceptive "provisioning"), but 4x higher than the 3% they claim by counting every condom they hand out as an equal service with their abortion wing.

    However, I don't object to Planned Parenthood because they hand out bad sex literature and praise socialist eugenists (though I certainly would find them objectionable if that was what they did) - I object to them because they murder children. And 327 thousand a year is 327K too many.

    @Maciejasjmj said:

    Come on, they're getting like $300 per fetus, and that's probably the top, not the average. And they still have costs to cover.

    The only costs Planned Parenthood takes on are the costs to run the back-light and wash out the dish - couriers (who are payed by the receiving party) come in and pick through the remains and take what they want. So $60 to $100 for each intact organ or system that can be re-sold at $400-$24,000 (no that's not a typo) for no work by the clinic.

    Imagine that a non-profit that oversaw end-of-life care was responsible for pulling the organs out of donors and offering them to others who were selling them on the open market. There were rumors that they might be encouraging their patients to sign up to be donors, and then being a wee-little-bit hasty to declare them dead. Now they weren't making much of a profit on these organs, but the companies they sold to were. And imagine that this non-profit, instead of opening up its books and clearing itself in 20 seconds, insisted that the whistleblowers be investigated for tax fraud. Is it worth investigating further, or are they clearly above reproach and no investigation is needed?



  • @svieira said:

    Still not a majority of their services (for that you have to go count every STD test, treatment, and contraceptive "provisioning"), but 4x higher than the 3% they claim...
    I think that measure is probably better, but even if they had said 12%, Polygeekery would still have been very well-justified to call FrostCat's statement completely ludicrous to the point of nutcasery; even if you ignore the "very, very" part of it, FrostCat would still be wrong by a greater factor than you assert PP is "wrong".

    (Though I would argue that visits to the clinic is probably a better measure than # patients, which would put it at 7.1%, not 12%.)


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