Visual Studio 2015 is out



  • I'm not sure what's new in it, but .NET 4.6 and Visual Studio 2015 are out now, including the Visual Studio Community Edition, Express Edition, and an updated version of Visual Studio Code.

    You can also get the Standard, Professional, Test Professional, or Enterprise Editions from MSDN, assuming you have a subscription.



  • There's a shitload of good stuff there, makes me enthusiastic. Seems like Microsoft dev tools is starting to recover from their disasters of the recent past.

    Except EF7 is still an amazing strategic error. And I'm still pissed at them for getting rid of XNA, what the fuck were they THINKING!



  • Is there a chance I'll be finally able to move on from 2-thousand-fucking-8? Or, in other words, does it restore ability to build for Windows CE, now known and Windows EC (but there are lot of boxes with still WinCE 5 or 6 that we need to target)?

    Integration of Xamarin cross-platform mobile toolkit does sound like a good strategic move though.



  • Yeah, probably not. If the last three releases didn't get the point across, they don't really care, and are more worried about things like building an ecosystem people want in on and improving the editor experience.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    disasters of the recent past

    By that you mean...? VS seems to have been put together quite well since VS2012, and even 2010 is rather comfortable, if a bit buggy (though it might be that ancient version of DevExpress we're using).

    @blakeyrat said:

    EF7 is still an amazing strategic error

    Also, huh? Don't know what's new there that well, but other than dropping edmx support (and that was a mess anyway), I don't see many bumps.



  • Well, the thing is the platform itself is still being actively developed though WP8 have a new kernel that is unrelated to the WCE (WP7 were WCE-based).



  • I was trying out VS2015CE RC just a few days ago. My very simple program kept crashing with invalid opcode error in SDL2 library (I compiled it with VS as well). I'm gonna stay with 2013 for now.





  • I feel dirty

    Oh well, if I get tired of Atom I'll give this one a try.



  • This is not RC, though. And what do you expect of beta software?



  • @Gaska said:

    My very simple program kept crashing with invalid opcode error in SDL2 library (I compiled it with VS as well).

    And of course you've reported the bug for the compiler team to fix, right?



  • @blakeyrat said:

    getting rid of XNA

    Well, at least 2013 still supports it.



  • @Rhywden said:

    This is not RC, though. And what do you expect of beta software?

    RC is not beta. If you don't know, RC stands for Release Candidate - ie. "we're going to make this the final version, after polishing it a little more and completing all the testing stages; it's fully functional and we're not aware of any major issues". And even if it was Beta, I would expect at least the "Gmail beta" level of stability from the thirteenth iteration of a product made by one of the biggest IT corporations in the world.

    @Maciejasjmj said:

    And of course you've reported the bug for the compiler team to fix, right?

    No, because that would require effort, and I don't care enough - it works on older release, and if there's more people who experience this problem, there's high chance the bug is already filed.

    Now, if I paid for it, I would definitely file the bug and ask for refund. But I don't.



  • I dare say that your issue then is not a major issue. You're not a special snowflake, after all.

    Plus, comparing GMail's complexity to VS is a whole level of absurdity of itself.

    And asking for a refund because of a bug that, according to your own words, is likely to be fixed? You must be fun to work with due to your absurdly high expectations on software reliability.



  • @Rhywden said:

    I dare say that your issue then is not a major issue. You're not a special snowflake, after all.

    I like to think I am the most special snowflake there is, and those problems happen only with my particular hardware config, with my particular Windows installation, with my particular network configuration, and with a very special way to reproduce the issue that requires following very carefully the exact steps I performed. So, even if they fixed it, no one would benefit from it (including myself, because I'm fine with VS13).

    @Rhywden said:

    Plus, comparing GMail's complexity to VS is a whole level of absurdity of itself.

    You know what is absurd? Commercial-grade compiler producing invalid opcode for their main target platform - the one they were supporting since the beginning. Especially if the older version works fine.

    @Rhywden said:

    And asking for a refund because of a bug that, according to your own words, is likely to be fixed?

    Sure, why not?

    @Rhywden said:

    You must be fun to work with due to your absurdly high expectations on software reliability.

    I never had to pay for my tools, so in real world I'm not at all like that. I just accept the fact there are bugs in software I'm using and try to work around them the best way I can.



  • @Maciejasjmj said:

    By that you mean...? VS seems to have been put together quite well since VS2012, and even 2010 is rather comfortable, if a bit buggy (though it might be that ancient version of DevExpress we're using).

    I haven't tried 2015 yet, but VS has been getting slower and more bloated since 2008 without adding enough new features to make the bloat worthwhile.

    I'm still annoyed by the neglect shown to WebForms and WinForms. Like I said above, cancelling XNA was such a bad stupid dumb ass idea I can't even comprehend it. (Way to give up your indie game market to Sony, guys! GREAT JOB ++!)

    EF7's utter lack of backwards-compatibility makes it virtually impossible to install in any existing project. That means everybody using it had the choice of either sticking with the old version, that'll soon fall into the gully of "kind of supported, but we never touch or do anything with it", or move to a competitor that won't fuck them over by breaking backwards compatibility.

    Also: there are still tons of Windows APIs that .NET has never properly supported, and Microsoft hasn't shown one tiny inkling of giving a shit about. For example, DirectShow.

    This is how you know a company has gone all open source-y. They start working on flashy new features, and neglect the basics for decades at a time.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    I haven't tried 2015 yet, but VS has been getting slower and more bloated since 2008 without adding enough new features to make the bloat worthwhile.

    Edit and continue, conditional break points, and the immediate window got massively improved, and the whole thing feels faster, though that could be placebo.



  • XNA disappearing was a very frustrating situation, but I could only assume MS didn't want to spend whatever resources they were on it.

    However, in a couple of months' three apps, Food & Drink, Travel, and Health & Fitness, will also disappear which makes no sense to me. I would have thought that the main cost was writing them in the first place and whatever maintenance they require now to be minimal.

    I also quite like them and thought they were good examples of quality apps to showcase on a new Windows install.



  • @coldandtired said:

    Food & Drink

    This one is a great app...

    Anyway, XNA is only mostly 'gone', because Monogame works even in Windows Universal, and is very near identical. But for the most part, everyone uses Unity now. I refuse, because it seems like an awful bloated mess, but it really is the default go-to engine for most beginners, so everything else just falls by the wayside.



  • Well, I installed VS 2015 and opened one of our projects; Got several compiler errors right off the bat (prior, using VS 2012 / 2010). So no code changes on my part, but compile errors now. One was solved by commenting out code (it was an obsolete that turned into error), and the others solved by changing a parameter name (it was the same name as the external function declaration it was part of) and the others by adding references (seems to have lost some tolerance there -- I use MSBuild 2012 on the code and get no errors). I think I'll edit the batch compile file to see what happens if I attempt to compile our entire source tree...



  • I've been doing some XNA tutorials to refresh my game dev skills, but if MonoGame is the recommended replacement for it I'll probably eventually have to switch to using that. I'm sure it's just as good as the real thing :ironic_emoticon:



  • @hungrier said:

    I'm sure it's just as good as the real thing :ironic_emoticon:

    Considering it works on every platform, it could be called better.



  • My prior experience trying to setup a dev environment for it on OSX suggests that "works" is very loosely defined. Although to be fair, that could have been because of the train wreck pile of shit Xamarin Studio that was required to do so, and not Monogame itself.



  • @hungrier said:

    Xamarin Studio

    Yep. I remember how it was before they took over Monodevelop. That was a great IDE. I compiled and ran code on Windows and SUSE with no difference except paths.

    Then I tried it after Xamarin happened, and couldn't get anything to work. It also looked worse, and the old links just take you to their version.

    I'm going to be converting my game from an old Monogame win8 project to a Windows Universal project, which will definitely have a few issues, but I'm not too worried.



  • Before the XNA confusion, XNA/MonoGame and Unity were neck-and-neck. (Special trivia: Unity also runs on Mono. It's a tragically ancient version though.)



  • Use Unity*! It lets you use Modern languages** including C#*** and Javascript to deploy your game on all platforms!

    *Not the DI one
    **We have three! We got rid of one though!
    ***If you like .NET 2


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @blakeyrat said:

    VS has been getting slower and more bloated since 2008

    2008 completely freezes up while compiling. 2013 seems a lot more responsive



  • Not to me. I get that dumb little "Visual Studio is waiting for a background task to finish..." almost every day.

    And if I make a change in source control, then go into VS and click "reload changed projects", holy crap I might as well go get coffee. I think it's actually quicker to close the solution and start over. (In fact I should time that.)

    EDIT: this isn't a 2008 vs. 2013 thing, but I hope 2015 fixed one of the more perplexing behaviors of VS: why doesn't it just cache a list of the unit tests instead of waiting for you to build then SLOWLY populate the list in the background? Why not just cache the tests, then double-check they still exist in a low-priority background thread? I can count the number of times we're removed a unit test from our project on zero hands.



  • @Magus said:

    the whole thing feels faster

    While the UI itself overall feels faster, some operations definitely take a lot -- a lot -- longer. E.g. the time to fully load up a basic MVC5 solution has more than quadrupled as opposed to loading up the same solution in VS 2013 for me.



  • They also broke something important since the rc. Shared projects can't be created on win 7, because they have some weird dependency on a windows 8 package that the RTM removed from everyone's system except on 8+.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @Magus said:

    Shared projects can't be created on win 7, because they have some weird dependency on a windows 8 package that the RTM removed from everyone's system except on 8+.

    That's going to make a number of people's lives hell, and it's more likely to bite corporates than small devs. Not a characteristic failure for MS at all.



  • It's definitely a bug, but at least shared projects are fairly new, so It may not affect terribly many people.



  • If it worked before but doesn't now, and it works on Win8, I'm not entirely sure it will ever be fixed.



  • I don't know. I'd expect a hotfix, since RC=>RTM was the breaking point, but shared projects definitely aren't as valuable outside 8.1. They're nice, but not terribly important.


  • mod

    @Magus said:

    but shared projects definitely aren't as valuable outside 8.1. They're nice, but not terribly important.

    I don't follow your logic. A shared project simplifies linking a shared library to other solutions and makes keeping the reference up to date much easier. How is that not as valuable outside 8.1? I do my development on a 7 box[1], and I would love to use shared projects. Unfortunately, that would mean upgrading a lot of projects.

    [1] That happens to be both the OS and the age of my box. I am working on getting approval for a new system.



  • Shared projects are a thing added for Windows 8.1 Universal apps, which needed shared code but different references. The code gets copied to each other project when a build happens, rather than being a separate shared DLL. It's nice, definitely. But it isn't as important as it was. I definitely hope they fix it, of course.



  • Wait, you're doing development for Windows 8.1 on Windows 7?

    I'm not exactly sure how that is a good idea.



  • Nope. The shared project template is available in the list even on 7, but doesn't work without 8, though it did. Our interns were using it to share functionality between a console app and a WPF app, while not adding an extra DLL to either. Not a bad idea overall. But the RTM broke it. The projects can still use the reference they had to the shared project, but you can't load the shared one in VS. It's weird and a bug.



  • @dkf said:

    That's going to make a number of people's lives hell, and it's more likely to bite corporates than small devs. Not a characteristic failure for MS at all.

    Windows 7 is pretty creaky, and shared projects are brand new. It's possibly it only even worked on Windows 7 in the first place by accident.



  • So, it's always in the list of templates, no matter what, but does not let you actually make one unless you're on 8+.

    This is because in the RC, they included some 8.1 targeting libraries in the Microsoft SDKs directory. The RTM said it needed to 'upgrade' those. When you try to reload a shared project, VS says it can't find those libraries.

    I'd definitely say that the not-working is the accident.



  • Well ok.

    People still need to get fucking over Windows 7 already.


  • sockdevs

    @blakeyrat said:

    People still need to get fucking over Windows 7 already.

    good luck. we still have people clinging to windows 98 machines. (not to mention the tens of thousands of windows XP machines still out there)


  • mod

    @accalia said:

    windows 98



  • ...and Visual Studio 2013 installs a Windows Phone 8 emulator when you install it on Windows 7. Despite said emulator not working on Windows 7.

    Not only has that never been fixed, but it even offers to upgrade it to a Windows Phone 8.1 emulator.... whose installer bombs when you run it.



  • Surprised no one has mentioned this:



  • Well, considering that doesn't ship until Wednesday (I could be wrong about this), it may well be fixed before it matters, since they said it's been fixed internally.

    EDIT: I was wrong. Still, maybe the one built into 10 will be fine?



  • Ouch, that's really bad



    1. I do not trust The Register.

    2. I do not trust random people on Stack Overflow.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @accalia said:

    good luck. we still have people clinging to windows 98 machines. (not to mention the tens of thousands of windows XP machines still out there)

    Yes, and all of those people need a swift slap upside the head.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    In other news, our team early adopter quickly discovered that our Bluecoat "Proxy" server (actually a giant MITM traffic against all things at work, including SSL) freaks out Visual Studio 2015 because VS actually inspects the certificates it gets for things like Microsoft account login and Nuget and so on, which 2013 and prior did not.


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