More gender discussion
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Reasonable cause
right to suicide
What makes you think I was just talking about the people who are suffering from a ...
crippling and painful terminal illness
And the fact that it's debated (I saw several 45/55 splits), just goes to show that "harm to self" is not being ignored. It's still a debated topic. Which was my point.
When you move away from crippling and painful, and say everyone has a right to suicide, because it only does harm to self, then you start to see ethical problems.
That teenager that thinks their life is over, has a 80% chance to be over it with a little support fairly quickly.
We say that a person who is depressed and wants to die, cannot logically consent to suicide, because they are impaired. Just as a drunk can't consent to suicide (or sex).
But if that's true for mentally disturbed, what about physically ill. There are many stories of people living for years after a "3 months to live" diagnosis. Under such duress, are they capable of logically consenting? Do we get to choose that for them.
Consent to do what one might see as "self-harm" is a touchy subject.
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That's not morality, that's rights.
Morality encompasses more than just outcome based ethics.
What about exhibitionism? It's banned in at least Poland, and I believe in the rest of Europe as well - and the reason is similar to why people who don't like gays don't want to see gay behavior in public space.
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I fail to see how someone's crotch giblets should have influence over who they is, though enough have issue with things either personally or due to other's self picked category that apparently I'm abnormal for that.
They're part of your endocrine system, so I fail to see why they wouldn't have a lot of influence over who one is.
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Fair enough on the biological point. Though societies generally don't like using effects from parts of that system to limit things (ex: diabetics have only a few restrictions on things due to issues from that system) if avoidable.
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Maybe I was right?
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Regarding comments about "binary gender" or being "comfortable with [their] genitalia" perhaps everyone should do a web search for the following phrase and read a few of the websites that show up.
Google (or whatever your preferred search) for: [ intersex hospital teams ]
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You're talking about John Money right?
For those who don't know, John Money was one of the most influential people behind the whole ‘gender is a social construct’ thing, and the most thoroughly discredited. As I understand it, no right-thinking people believe that gender is a social construct any more; all the scientific evidence shows that people who are brought up as a different gender than they really are will be miserable.
I also understand, though I haven't looked it up for myself, that the evidence that people can be born with a different gender than their genitals would lead you to believe is similarly convincing. To me personally, coming out as genderfluid or taking time to figure out what gender you are seems like clueless rich kid nonsense, when there are people who are really fucking suffering trying to live out the wrong gender role. Like, you hear about someone contemplating taking a kitchen knife to parts of their body, and then here's this kid who thinks they could have got to 26 and not even realize they're trans? But it seems that trans folks actually support that kind of thing, so I mostly keep that opinion to myself, except here on this bastion of intolerance (
), where I can be reasonably confident I'm not gonna trigger anyone (and I don't mean ‘trigger’ in the clueless rich kid sense of the word; I'm talking about people who've gone through real actual trauma seeing something like this and being reminded of all the times people told them that what they knew about themselves was wrong and having that totally fuck up their day).Anyway, that's just my two cents. Next does anyone want to hear me explain why I think legalizing suicide would actually be very life-affirming?
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"Well what you may not realize ... biological gender is also a cultural concept" -a real human.
Seriously. There are actually people who believe that, apparently. Who live that far away from the real world.
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I actually never even heard of this John Money before your post and this is not about "social constructs". My point is that so many people are locked into the idea that there are ONLY two biological genders but the truth is that every day people are born who medically/biologically do not fit the traditional definition male or female in various ways (approx 1:1000 babies which is about 4,000 people a year in the U.S. alone). It is so complex that it takes a team of specialists to address the situation, and it is common enough that almost every major hospital has one of those teams integrated in their staff for when such a birth occurs in their hospital. My message is for those head-in-the-sand types that need to wake up, pull their head out of
their assthe sand, look around, and realize the world is much more complex and expansive than they ever imagined.Here is a good medical reference document to start with from the Texas Children's Hospital:
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Wait, I thought I was talking to @cdon, now you're A guy?! This is too much for my poor little brain to handle :tongue_in_cheek:.
Look, one in a thousand's still pretty rare, it's not unusual for most people to have minimal awareness of this issue. For reference, apparently cerebral palsy hits 3 per thousand, but most people don't really know much about the condition, and get pretty awkward around such individuals. My second cousin had a friend at school with cp, and it doesn't take much to get him ranting about how terribly most people treat them. He doesn't give a shit about social justice or anything, it's just that because he actually knew someone who had that, he's not ignorant of that particular issue, and is aware of how ignorant most people are.
So yeah, shit sucks, and it could suck a lot less if people were more aware of the realities of a lot of people's gender. But a big component of the current suckage is how politicized this condition has become, and afaik, a lot of that is due to the ‘gender is a social construct’ crew, who came in with their wrong-headed, ideologically-driven theories and tried to make reality conform to them. You can't just assign any gender to a kid and expect them to grow up Aok with that.
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As I understand it, no right-thinking people believe that gender is a social construct any more;
I see we're converging on our opinions regarding feminists.
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That looks like a more ... feminine beverage ...
I think it's OK if you're in Hawaii or Tahiti or some place with a tiki bar.
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TRWTF is watermarking a picture of words.
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If I'm going to put a drink in my mouth, it had damn well better have a penis.
No, wait...
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If I'm going to put a drink in my mouth, it had damn well better have a penis.
what... how.... wait, no i don't want to know.
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If I wasn't at work I'd GIS for penis drink
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Hey it's on Deviant Art. It's ART! They downloaded a FONT and then typed TWO WORDS and then SELECTED A COLOR AND FILLED IN THE BACKGROUND!
A lot of effort went into this work of ART!
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Wasn't sure which thread to stick this in (thought about Stupid Ideas thread), but think this one'll do. If I didn't know better I'd normally associate this sort of thing with The Daily Mash.
Pride event BANS drag queens in case they are offensive
A Pride event in Scotland has banned all drag queens from performing - in case they are "offensive" to trans people.
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I still have trouble with this head-fart-on-desk idea ...
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you.... whaa..... how..... why.... but....
E_STACK_OVERFLOW
.....
>beep<
One 667Mhz Processor, Processor Bus: 333Mhz, L2 cache: 64KB
4096B OK
ATA/133 Controller BIOS 3.1.415
Primary Channel: Drive0 Not Found
Secondary Channel: Drive0 Not FoundPXE boot - disabled
No bootable device - insert boot disk and press any key.
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One 667Mhz Processor, Processor Bus: 333Mhz, L2 cache: 64KB
That could explain all those typo's ... It is clearly not fast enough .
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i think i'd be more concerned that apparently i only have 4KB of RAM.... anmmd apparently no functioning harddrives
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over ATA/133? why would i bother? even a spinner can saturate that connection.
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Look, one in a thousand's still pretty rare, it's not unusual for most people to have minimal awareness of this issue. For reference, apparently cerebral palsy hits 3 per thousand, but most people don't really know much about the condition, and get pretty awkward around such individuals.
True, but most people don't go around claiming that there is no such thing as a person with CP.
My second cousin had a friend at school with cp, and it doesn't take much to get him ranting about how terribly most people treat them. He doesn't give a shit about social justice or anything, it's just that because he actually knew someone who had that, he's not ignorant of that particular issue, and is aware of how ignorant most people are.
I actually don't know anyone who is intersex, but I do "give a shit" about social justice ... well, actually it would be more correct to say I give a shit about solving society's many problems and I am adamantly opposed to making it harder to solve those problems because of incomplete, incorrect, and ignorant information.
So yeah, shit sucks, and it could suck a lot less if people were more aware of the realities of a lot of people's gender. But a big component of the current suckage is how politicized this condition has become, and afaik, a lot of that is due to the ‘gender is a social construct’ crew, who came in with their wrong-headed, ideologically-driven theories and tried to make reality conform to them.
I agree the issue is politicized beyond any acceptable level (as are climate change, religion, energy conservation, homosexuality, medical care, etc etc etc). In 1998 an excellent book on the gender identity issue included the following statement:
"If genitals are not completely dimorphic [occurring in two distinct forms], if genital surgery to create dimorphism is problematic, and if people under certain conditions are capable of accepting genital variability, then why is intersexuality managed in the way it is? Why are unusually sized and shaped genitals not accepted as reasonable markers of gender -- gender either as we know it in the two-option scheme or as we could know it in a new gender system? Why does the "solution" for variant genitals lie in knives and not in words?"
-- Lessons from the Intersexed by Suzanne J. Kessler © 1998, ISBN 0-8135-2529-2If (as you put it) the ‘gender is a social construct’ crew is "wrong headed", perhaps it is because they are trying to swing the proverbial pendulum away from a society that for decades has done everything in its power -- including arbitrary surgical alterations of infants -- to keep society from having to face the reality of polymorphic gendered humans among us.
I do NOT think gender is a social construct. I do think that gender-based behavioral expectations are a social construct. That is: our society has a narrow-minded view of what it considers as "appropriate" behavior for any given person based on gender stereo-types.
When we stop expecting every single person ever born to be either a "manly" man and or a "feminine" woman with no middle ground, then we will have gone a long way to solving gender identity problems, making it possible for many people to simply be who they are without labels.
You can't just assign any gender to a kid and expect them to grow up Aok with that.
I agree, yet for decades that is exactly what we did to intersex children. It is only in the past 20 or so years that even doctors have begun to say ... hmmm, let's wait a bit to see the way this kid develops before we make an irreversible decision. We also did (and still do) the same thing to gay kids, pressuring them to be "normal" and making them ashamed of their own existence.
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to keep society from having to face the reality of polymorphic gendered humans among us.
This seems like an unfair statement towards those people who were probably just trying to help those humans not be or be seen as freaks. I don't know what the solution is for these people, and there may not be a good one.
When we stop expecting every single person ever born to be either a "manly" man and or a "feminine" woman
Should we expect people not to beg the question?
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I still have trouble with this head-fart-on-desk idea ...
Every time I see that image blown-up, it forces me to confront the fact that the icon isn't actually a cat version of K-9 from Doctor Who circa 1976.
I prefer the delusion.
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When we stop expecting every single person ever born to be either a "manly" man and or a "feminine" woman with no middle ground, then we will have gone a long way to solving gender identity problems, making it possible for many people to simply be who they are without labels.
Cool, glad that's over.
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If (as you put it) the ‘gender is a social construct’ crew is "wrong headed", perhaps it is because they are trying to swing the proverbial pendulum away from a society that for decades has done everything in its power -- including arbitrary surgical alterations of infants -- to keep society from having to face the reality of polymorphic gendered humans among us.
Replacing one crazy with a different crazy doesn't make it less crazy.
I do NOT think gender is a social construct. I do think that gender-based behavioral expectations are a social construct. That is: our society has a narrow-minded view of what it considers as "appropriate" behavior for any given person based on gender stereo-types.
But those behavioral expectations stem from biological differences. Obviously only Sith deal in absolutes, and on a personal level those can be overridden, but for most people, those stereotypes are right.
True, but most people don't go around claiming that there is no such thing as a person with CP.
Then again, most people don't come out as having cerebral palsy after they wake up with their leg fallen asleep.
And that's the problem the society needs to overcome. Not tolerance - we're going fairly well with that - but stupid bored kids looking for a way to make themselves special at the expense of people with real problems. I've ranted about it a lot of times - the more we bring up the petty issues, the microagressions, the special snowflakes - the more we muddle the waters and get people with real problems treated less seriously because of that.
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Replacing one crazy with a different crazy doesn't make it less crazy.
True, but it does at least get the conversation started.
But those behavioral expectations stem from biological differences. Obviously only Sith deal in absolutes, and on a personal level those can be overridden, but for most people, those stereotypes are right.
Really?!? Folks, here we have a true WTF! moment.
Let's start with a little fundamental MYTHBUSTING 101!
Now on to the real WTF! So are you saying that women are "supposed" to be delicate because of their biology? Try telling that to early to the American pioneer women who built this country. Of course you might be right, after all you never hear of men being expected to stay home and remain barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen so that must be a biologically based "right" stereotype. And men must never wear a dress because that is not a masculine biologically based stereotype. No son of mine will ever be allowed to wear anything but pants, not like those effeminate Roman Centurians, Celtic Warriors, Greek Philosophers, Catholic Popes or US Supreme Court Judges. And no daughter of mine will ever be a Race Car Driver, Construction Engineer, or Nuclear Physicist because those jobs require working with tools and we all know that tools are the biological domain of males only. Gee, stereotypes make it so easy not to have to THINK! Thank you.
@Aguy said:
True, but most people don't go around claiming that there is no such thing as a person with CP.
Then again, most people don't come out as having cerebral palsy after they wake up with their leg fallen asleep.
SO... if people are diagnosed by a doctor as having an problem then it is real, but if they recognize the issue for themselves -- after years of being told by society to shut up and conform because they are sick or wrong to have such feelings -- it is a not real problem?
And *that's* the problem the society needs to overcome. Not tolerance - we're going fairly well with that - but stupid bored kids looking for a way to make themselves special at the expense of people with real problems. I've ranted about it a lot of times - the more we bring up the petty issues, the microagressions, the special snowflakes - the more we muddle the waters and get people with real problems treated less seriously because of that.
Microaggressions ... this is a new name for the ancient "death-by-ten-thousand-cuts" ... a practice that encourages wounds to fester and cause sepsis. If we run people through the gut with a broadsword that is a real problem, but if we use an Exacto blade and just make people bleed a little each day, every day, for 15 or 20 years, that isn't a real problem. Oh, and being fired from your job, or evicted from your home, or disowned and shunned by your own parents -- with no legal recourse or protections -- is just a petty issue. Really?!?
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This seems like an unfair statement towards those people who were probably just trying to help those humans not be or be seen as freaks.
Have you ever watched the 1968 movie "Guess Who's Coming for Dinner"?
I don't know what the solution is for these people, and there may not be a good one.
Here is a good suggestion on how we can start:
--> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYfkqMIw388Should we expect people not to beg the question?
I'll be honest that I do not understand what you mean by this. Can you clarify?
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but for most people, those stereotypes are right.
Society should at least not make them even more pervasive.
Gender dimorphism doesn't mean that stereotyping is an appropiate thing to do.
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Nice example: This abomination that hit the shelves last year:
You know, back when I was in elementary school everyone loved Kinder Surprise.
Now girls have to get their own special edition while the normal version is apparently boys only (but didn't get any a "for boys" qualifier). As if girls couldn't play with normal toys / boys didn't deserve having their gender mentioned but girls do for some reason / the old Kinder Surprise eggs weren't loved by all children equally.
Sickening.
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How about this?
https://consumermediallc.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/lego_to_parents.jpg?w=680&h=905
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Have you ever watched the 1968 movie "Guess Who's Coming for Dinner"?
No
Here is a good suggestion on how we can start: --> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYfkqMIw388
Sorry, I stopped watching when he misrepresented Matthew Sheppard's murder.
I'll be honest that I do not understand what you mean by this. Can you clarify?
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Now girls have to get their own special edition while the normal version is apparently boys only (but didn't get any a "for boys" qualifier). As if girls couldn't play with normal toys / boys didn't deserve having their gender mentioned but girls do for some reason / the old Kinder Surprise eggs weren't loved by all children equally.
This is terrible! Boys are being excluded!
Funny how one can come to an opposite conclusion from the same data, eh?
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This is terrible! Boys are being excluded!
Funny how one can come to an opposite conclusion from the same data, eh?
Second / point was exactly that (implied devaluation of boys).
Learn to read before going on an anti-SJW crusade, for the love of god.
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Learn to read before going on an anti-SJW crusade, for the love of god.
Honestly, I can't even tell when I'm trolling on this sort of thing any more. It's all gone through Poe's law and come out the other side.
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You should still try learning to read.
It might even help your relationship with blakeyrat!
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Actually you are dead right on this @boomzilla.
The real question is why does any gender need to have special treatment?
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You should still try learning to read.
I swear I read the whole thing you wrote! I also admit I didn't take too long following the convolution of stuff in there to discover the sarcasm.
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The real question is why does any gender need to have special treatment?
Maybe they don't need it. Maybe the things sell better like that. Maybe some people like it that way. But our modern Puritans are no different than the old school kind.
“Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy.”
― H.L. Mencken, A Mencken Chrestomathy
with a 
Begging the question - Wikipedia
