The bad words and counting topic



  • There's a similarity. But I didn't get it either until someone pointed it out. But look, he posted it in the bad jokes topic, not the good jokes topic, so I think we can all stop violently agreeing about its quality now.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    Instead, we can talk about how Jurassic World, a movie written and filmed, apparently, by Americans, is racist because someone says "the pachys [a small dinosaur] are out of the pens!" and some English people think it's "Pakis", an ethnic slur used in England and not much anywhere else.



  • One time in DC, a guy said the word "niggardly." Predictable hilarity ensued.



  • @boomzilla said:

    One time in DC, a guy said the word "niggardly." Predictable hilarity ensued.

    Did he hold a sign with "Trigger Warning" on it?



  • As a public figure, you'd need to carry one at all times. People don't know words.



  • Yeah but remember movies are made by insincere Hollywood liberal types, not good honest god-fearing Americans. It doesn't really stretch the bounds of plausibility that they could have put a line like that in intentionally, as part of their viral strategy.



  • @boomzilla said:

    One time in DC, a guy said the word "niggardly." Predictable hilarity ensued.

    I've said niggardly in the UK and had people do their shocked face. I'm sure I don't have an unusually large vocabulary compared to everyone else so why does it seem to cause confusion. Useful word if you could use it...


  • sockdevs

    Use of niggardly has dropped quite a lot since the 50s, according to Google:

    Can't think wh- oh yeah, it's because people are stupid, and think that two totally unrelated words with completely different meanings yet sound similar mean the same thing.



  • Context should come into it even if you don't know the word. Plenty of things are (or contain) homonyms. I'm not likely to use a racial slur in a business environment, or all all.

    @RaceProUK said:

    Can't think wh- oh yeah, it's because people are stupid, and think that two totally unrelated words with completely different meanings yet sound similar mean the same thing.

    It's a shame because miserly isn't exactly the same, it has connotations of an old male.


  • I survived the hour long Uno hand

    @RaceProUK said:

    because people are stupid

    Our language has such phrases as "Indian giver" and "gypped" that are clearly born of racism. It would make sense if niggardly was derived from negro, despite the fact that I know it's not.


  • sockdevs

    The language also has words like 'gay', 'dyke', and 'chink', which are perfectly innocent words (happy, type of dam, weakness) that have been perverted to become slurs (homosexual, lesbian, Chinese person). But that doesn't make their original meanings any less valid, and people should be able to use them in their correct sense without being judged for it.

    Quite frankly, reacting negatively to someone using the word 'niggardly' is racist. Why? Simple: the person reacting negatively is assigning racial connotations that simply don't exist. Having said that, I'll admit to never using the word 'niggardly' myself. Why? Simple: it's never really been part of my vocabulary. Same reason I don't use the word 'conniption'.



  • My team aren't allowed to use the words "master" or "slave" when discussing hardware because apparently they're offensive.



  • @Boner said:

    My team aren't allowed to use the words "master" or "slave" when discussing hardware because apparently they're offensive.

    That's insane. The person that decided that better not read a standard or RFC (also male/female/gender-changer uh oh!), their head would explode.

    What does it get replaced with?



  • Primary /secondary, but IMO it loses some of the meaning.



  • You should propose "Manager" and "Worker" instead. It carries the same meaning, essentially ;)



  • @RaceProUK said:

    Having said that, I'll admit to never using the word 'niggardly' myself. Why? Simple: it's never really been part of my vocabulary. Same reason I don't use the word 'conniption'.

    You'd cause quite a conniption if you did use the word "niggardly."

    @RaceProUK said:

    The language also has words like 'gay', ... which are perfectly innocent words (happy
    I still remember the first time I ever heard it used to mean anything other than happy; at the time, I didn't know it even had any other meaning. I was in junior high or early high school. I was quite small for my age; in addition, I was a bit younger than most of my classmates, so I was the smallest guy in my class, and very unathletic. One day, while we were standing around waiting for the PE teacher to tell us want particular form of athletic torture we were to endure that day, some other guy asked me if I was gay. It was PE, my least favorite class, and we were standing around outside in shorts and tee-shirts on a rather chilly day, so I wasn't particularly happy. I said, "No, not particularly." "Not particularly" is a perfectly sensible answer to a question about happiness, but — even considering sexual orientation to be non-binary, ISTM "not particularly" would be a somewhat unusual way to answer that question. (Not to mention that anything even hinting at slightly "yes" would be an invitation to even more bullying than I already got at that age.) However, like I said, I didn't even know it had any meaning other than the traditional one until I was informed of its new meaning following that exchange of question and answer.

    @RaceProUK said:

    dyke
    Like tire/tyre, the traditional meaning is spelled with an "i" in American English, so in written communication the differentiation is clear. Of course, this causes even more confusion when an American reads something written in British English, as the perverted (your word, not mine) meaning is assumed even when the context should indicate the innocent one.

    @RaceProUK said:

    people should be able to use them in their correct sense without being judged for it.
    I don't really see judgment in using those words. "Dike" and "chink" are seldom used outside "putting a finger in the dike" ("levee" is much more common, IME) and "chink in the armor;" although "putting a finger in the dike" may get a :giggity: response, the intended meaning is (I think) universally understood and not regarded as derogatory. OTOH, "gay," while not considered derogatory in most circles, seems to have completely lost any meaning other than homosexual in common use. Some dictionaries already have that as the first definition, and I expect it won't be long before the number 2 definition gets tagged with archaic. I suspect most current students are confused when they encounter the original meaning in English Lit classes.



  • @Cursorkeys said:

    Useful word if you could use it...

    What a gyp.

    People who said I could use that word were total indian givers.


    @Yamikuronue said:

    Our language has such phrases as "Indian giver" and "gypped" that are clearly born of racism.

    DAMN YOU!

    Anyway yes, it's really shitty for people to get caught up on "niggardly" which is not a racist term while there are actual genuine racist terms in use all over the US.


  • sockdevs

    @Yamikuronue said:

    gypped

    According to Google, the etymology of that word has sod all to do with racism; the worst I could find was something about college servants at Cambridge or Durham :confused:



  • @RaceProUK said:

    college servants at Cambridge or Durham

    One of the schools I looked at going to had fagging. I wonder if any still do and if they've had to PC the name.


  • sockdevs

    That reminds me of the phrase Can I bum a fag?; here in the UK, if you asked someone that, they'd give you a cigarette.

    I wouldn't try it in the US though… unless you're in the right part of San Francisco I guess.


  • I survived the hour long Uno hand

    @RaceProUK said:

    the etymology of that word has sod all to do with racism

    Eh? http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=gyp


  • sockdevs

    Well, that's the first I'm hearing about that; on this side of the pond, gyp has never been associated with gypsies


  • I survived the hour long Uno hand

    I hadn't heard it talked about until I was an adult either, but it's pretty clear that's where it came from. We just try to pretend it's not these days.



  • @HardwareGeek said:

    putting a finger in the dike

    Did you know a large portion of Dutch people don't actually know that story? I think I heard it in English class, when the teacher mentioned the two well-known Dutch people an American was likely to know, with one of them not being Dutch and the other being fictitious.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    Anyway yes, it's really shitty for people to get caught up on "niggardly" which is not a racist term while there are actual genuine racist terms in use all over the US.

    I've never been able to understand why the same people who get het up about the imagined racial implications of "niggardly" or even "water buffalo" have no problem talking about "denigrating" something.



  • @Kian said:

    You should propose "Manager" and "Worker" instead. It carries the same meaning, essentially ;)

    Or leader/follower.



  • Male / Female works fine :p :trolleybus:



  • @PleegWat said:

    the two well-known Dutch people an American was likely to know, with one of them not being Dutch and the other being fictitious.

    Hans Brinker is fictitious. Who's the one that wasn't Dutch? Names that are coming to my mind are Rembrandt van Rijn (Dutch) and Vincent van Gogh (born in Netherlands, and lived there all but about the last 4 or 5 years of his life).



  • How about ‘user’.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @da_Doctah said:

    I've never been able to understand why the same people who get het up about the imagined racial implications of "niggardly" or even "water buffalo" have no problem talking about "denigrating" something.

    They will in a few years.

    Filed under: so many triggers, so little time



  • @RaceProUK said:

    bum a fag

    I've always wondered if anyone has ever actually uttered those words. When I was a filthy smoker I had plenty of people ask to borrow or cadge one but never bum one.

    I used to smoke a lot of cigars, it's amazing how many strangers in a pub want to be friends when they find out you have a pocket full :smile:


  • sockdevs

    To be fair, it's a phrase that's pretty much fallen out of use, mostly because we've imported some American slang meanings, some of which are replacing the older British slang meanings.



  • The other one mentioned to me at the time was Anne Frank.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @Buddy said:

    [...]

    :rolleyes: :roller_coaster:



  • @Yamikuronue said:

    We just try to pretend it's not these days.

    Once everyone has forgotten that something used to be derogatory is it still derogatory? It seems to me to do more harm bringing up a racist etymology than just getting on with communication, in the same sense that supposedly talking about some false thing in order to point out how it's wrong ends up reinforcing it. I can't remember what they called it, but I recall some study talking about this a few years ago.

    Any ways, scolding someone for innocently using a term that no one remembers was derived from racism just pisses off the people who are using the term (because you're falsely accusing them of racism) and possibly the people who were the original targets of the racism (Hey, those guys are racist towards me!).



  • I suppose it depends a lot on how it is used when it returns. Chimney sweeps used to be the lowest of the low on social scale in England; labeling someone a "chimney sweep," who wasn't, would have been a seriously derogatory attack. Yet we have a movie, with a chimney sweep as a starring role, "Mary Poppins."

    But I'm going to come right out and use the word you're thinking of, "nigger," because this is an academic discussion and even I agree that it is oversensitive to regard the word as inappropriate for this setting.

    The problem with that word is: It hasn't stopped being used for its derogatory purpose. To an extent, the use has been driven underground, but it is still in derogatory use.

    What do you think that woman in McKinney meant when she called that girl a, "filthy nigger". When the Denver officer said, "Nigger, I'm trying to get through." When a Baton Rouge officer texted, "The only reason they have this job is because of the nigger in them!!" My own father used to use, "Fuck a nigger!" as an epithet.

    The only possible interpretation of those words places the objective target's relative position in life: subservient, inferior, just dirt on the floor. Racism is not gone and the derogatory use of the word is not gone; it just lies low at the moment. So it can't "come back": it can only do that after it's been gone for a while.

    Those people who are still racist have not forgotten the word is derogatory, and neither will those of us who want racism gone. It is a sad truth, though, that the focus is much more on the word than on the racism.



  • @CoyneTheDup said:

    But I'm going to come right out and use the word you're thinking of, "nigger,"

    I was?

    @CoyneTheDup said:

    The problem with that word is: It hasn't stopped being used for its derogatory purpose.

    Which is one reason why I wasn't thinking it.

    @CoyneTheDup said:

    Those people who are still racist have not forgotten the word is derogatory, and neither will those of us who want racism gone.

    Yes. It turns out no one has forgotten that that word is derogatory. I'm not sure why you'd bring it up in response to what I posted.



  • @CoyneTheDup said:

    Yet we have a movie, with a chimney sweep as a starring role, "Mary Poppins."

    (An American movie.)



  • @blakeyrat said:

    @CoyneTheDup said:
    Yet we have a movie, with a chimney sweep as a starring role, "Mary Poppins."

    (An American movie.)

    Based on an English book.



  • @boomzilla said:

    Yes. It turns out no one has forgotten that that word is derogatory. I'm not sure why you'd bring it up in response to what I posted.

    You used the term "racist etymology" in your original post. Let's see, what word could possibly be "derogatory" and have a "racist etymology"...hmmm...hmmm...hummm...Oh, wait, I've got it: nigger!

    :trollface: Stand up. Be a man. Admit it: you want to use that word. Routinely.

    @blakeyrat said:

    (An American movie.)

    Good point. I wonder if the term is still derogatory in Great Britain. Anyone from there want to enlighten us?


  • sockdevs

    @CoyneTheDup said:

    I wonder if the term is still derogatory in Great Britain. Anyone from there want to enlighten us?

    Nope, partly due to Mary Poppins, but mostly because the vast majority of homes have gas or electric central heating; there's almost no demand for chimney sweeps any more as a result



  • @CoyneTheDup said:

    You used the term "racist etymology" in your original post. Let's see, what word could possibly be "derogatory" and have a "racist etymology"...hmmm...hmmm...hummm...Oh, wait, I've got it: nigger!

    Yeah...where no one remembers its racist past.

    @CoyneTheDup said:

    Stand up. Be a man. Admit it: you want to use that word. Routinely.

    It's true. Mostly because I want to be able to sing this song...

    Patti Smith - Rock 'n' Roll Nigger 1979 – 05:42
    — valentin steinbrecher



  • I think the point of pointing out that gypsy is a derogatory term is to bring people's attention to the fact that Romani are still being persecuted to this day, apparently.



  • @Buddy said:

    I think the point of pointing out that gypsy is a derogatory term is to bring people's attention to the fact that Romani are still being persecuted to this day, apparently.

    Yeah, Europe has its own racist problems. I don't need to be lectured on them.



  • But are Europeans allowed to say nigger? What about Asians? Is this ad racist? Who would ever want to use herbal toothpaste anyway?
    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5Y7eg0REXZM


  • sockdevs

    :wtf: did I just watch‽



  • @RaceProUK said:

    :wtf: did I just watch‽

    Brought to you by the "We thought it was a good idea at the time!" department. Sponsored by the "Drugs. We need MOAR drugs!" agency.



  • @Buddy said:

    But are Europeans allowed to say nigger?

    Is there some use of nigger that isn't racist in context? If an American says, "That guy gypped me," he's just saying that the other person cheated him somehow. A gypsy to an American is a fortune teller in a movie or TV show. He probably isn't even aware that gypsies are or ever have been discriminated against.

    If he says something like that when in Europe, it would be appropriate, I think, for someone to point out that it's a derogatory and unacceptable term there. Slang varies all over the place. But it's not appropriate to inject a lecture on racism where none exists. That's just being an asshole and making stuff worse.



  • @Buddy said:

    What about Asians? Is this ad racist?

    Asian cultures have typically come across as incredibly racist cultures to me. I finally watched it. I couldn't hear what the mom said, but maybe it's racist? Given my view on Asian cultures, I'd give them the benefit of the doubt and assume racism went into the commercial.

    @Buddy said:

    Who would ever want to use herbal toothpaste anyway?

    Maybe it works well with the crazy stuff that typical Asian cuisine seems to use. :trolleybus:

    Actually, it reminds me of the stuff you buy for dogs that's supposedly meat flavored.



  • We also have our term for "nigger" over here in Germany, it's "Neger". The debate has led to some foodstuffs being renamed, like "Negerkuss" ("Kiss of a nigger") to "Schokokuss" ("Chocolate kiss") which is not a big loss in my eyes.

    It is a bit problematic when it comes to rewriting books, though. For instance, Astrid Lindgren's books about Pippi Longstocking have Pippi's father being a negro king. I think they rewrote that one.


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