Soundcards are bullshit



  • No. Codec. Might use I2S.

    Eg Realtek, like damn near every motherboard uses.

    Or this thing, which happens to have DACs and ADCs as well.
    http://www.cmedia.com.tw/productsdetail/page-p/c1serno-25/c2serno-26/pserno-9.html


  • FoxDev

    At the risk of sounding like Mr Rat, you have no fucking clue what you're talking about. A USB headset has a DAC, some speakers, a mic, and an ADC. And maybe some pots for volume control. And a simple SPDT switch to silence the mic. That is it.

    There is no sound card in a USB headset. The processing is all done on the PC.



  • @lightsoff said:

    I have. The sound card is integrated into the headset.

    The headset has no circuitry that can reasonably be called a "sound card". Just a simple DAC.

    @lightsoff said:

    (Well, usually in the oversized USB connector to be precise.)

    I'm not talking about the type of headset that does mixing. I'm talking about one of these:

    http://store.madcatz.com/platforms/pc/FREQ-5-Stereo-Gaming-Headset-for-PC-and-Mac.html

    Which is the headset I have.

    You can buy a USB headset for like $20 bucks:

    It has a USB cable; it doesn't have an "oversized USB connector", it certainly doesn't have anything that could be called a "sound card" by a reasonable person. Definitely not at a $20 price-point.

    You're either talking about an OS significantly shittier than Windows, or you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about at all.



  • @lightsoff said:

    Unless you have a very odd definition of sound card, in which case no motherboard with integrated sound has a sound card either.

    ?

    They do have sound cards. Duh.

    The point we're trying to make, and you seem utterly ignorant of, is that a computer can output audio without a sound card. How? Well, it has its own mixer that runs in the CPU, and all it needs is sound-outputting hardware like... say... an HDMI port. Or a bluetooth antenna. Or a USB port.

    The point I was trying to make is that now that CPUs are fast enough to do complicated audio mixing, and now that every computer on Earth has one or more of: HDMI, USB, Bluetooth, it's no longer necessary to possess a discrete sound card to get sound out of a computer. And hasn't been for ages. Windows XP supported USB headsets just fine.



  • http://www.cmedia.com.tw/productsdetail/page-p/c1serno-25/c2serno-26/pserno-9.html

    So what is that chip then?

    What's I2S for?

    By your definition, Realtek don't make sound cards, and Creative don't either, and in fact there's no such thing as a sound card at all?


  • FoxDev

    @lightsoff said:

    So what is that chip then?

    Does that chip exist in every USB headset? I bet not.
    @lightsoff said:
    By your definition, Realtek don't make sound cards, and Creative don't either, and in fact there's no such thing as a sound card at all?

    And now you're just being stupid.



  • @lightsoff said:

    http://www.cmedia.com.tw/productsdetail/page-p/c1serno-25/c2serno-26/pserno-9.html

    So what is that chip then?

    Jesus fucking Christ you're dense.

    I'm not saying USB sound cards don't exist, OF COURSE THEY DO. NewEgg is lousy with the damned things: http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&DEPA=0&Order=BESTMATCH&Description=USB+sound+card&N=-1&isNodeId=1

    I'm saying USB headsets (at least a large percentage of them) do not possess USB sound cards. Nor do video cards with HDMI ports, nor do Bluetooth radios.

    A SOUND CARD IS NOT NECESSARY FOR A COMPUTER TO OUTPUT AUDIO AND HASN'T BEEN FOR DECADES. All that's necessary is some physical port on the computer capable of carrying an audio stream.



  • So what is your definition of a sound card?

    I can't come up with a definition that allows a Realtek chipset to be one while a USB headset does not contain one.

    Chunky USB connector in that Walmart one, see bottom left.

    The chipsets are dirt cheap commodity things. Couple of USD in small quantities.

    If you want to argue that Realtek don't make sound cards either then that is at least consistent. I wouldn't agree, but can see your point.



  • @lightsoff said:

    So what is your definition of a sound card?

    I can't come up with a definition that allows a Realtek chipset to be one while a USB headset does not contain one.

    The most obvious difference is that a sound card contains a mixer and a USB headset does not. Nor does a HDMI port, or a Bluetooth antenna.


  • FoxDev

    @lightsoff said:

    So what is your definition of a sound card?

    As Blakey said, something with a hardware mixer. USB headsets don't have hardware mixers.



  • Ok forget the USB example.

    If I plug in a HDMI cable to a NVidia card on one end, and a TV on the other end, and I play audio through the computer, where's the sound card?

    Is the NVidia GPU a sound card? Is the HDMI cable? Is the TV a sound card? Answer me that, bozo.



  • Ok. I'm guessing you've never looked at the hardware then.
    Depending on your definition of "mixer", either all of them (volume) or those with microphones (mic sidetone) do contain them.

    If your definition doesn't include either of those two, then we've been arguing at cross purposes because sound cards barely exist anymore.



  • If that's all you did, then you get silence.

    If you remembered to connect the 2 pin digital audio link cable from the motherboard integrated audio, then that may answer the question.


  • FoxDev

    @lightsoff said:

    Chunky USB connector

    That's where the USB controller chip is, fuckwit.
    @lightsoff said:
    I'm guessing you've never looked at the hardware then.

    I just looked in the inline section of my Turtle Beach PX11. Want to know what I saw in there? A USB controller, and some DAC/ADC chips. That's it.
    @lightsoff said:
    Depending on your definition of "mixer"

    Something that combines several channels into one.
    @lightsoff said:
    either all of them (volume)

    A volume control is not a mixer. In the same way a door handle is not a mixer.
    @lightsoff said:
    those with microphones (mic sidetone)

    Since it's not possible to adjust the volume of that, it's not being mixed. And that's assuming sidetone exists; it doesn't always.

    USB headsets do not contain sound cards. They receive a single sound source from the PC via USB, and that's it.



  • @RaceProUK said:

    USB headsets do not contain sound cards. They receive a single sound source from the PC via USB, and that's it.

    If that is your position, then motherboards with integrated sound do not contain sound cards either.

    In fact, they no longer exist (except for specialist situations like the VCAs in sound consoles and professional audio playback devices), as the function is now fully software.

    That's what I meant earlier - there isn't a definition that lets one be a sound card and the other not.


  • FoxDev

    @lightsoff said:

    If that is your position, then motherboards with integrated sound do not contain sound cards either.

    TDEMSYR
    @lightsoff said:
    That's what I meant earlier - there isn't a definition that lets one be a sound card and the other not.

    Yes there is. In fact, we both fucking told you what it is!

    Are you being this stupid on purpose? At least when I'm being stupid, it's unintentional.


  • FoxDev

    @lightsoff said:

    there isn't a definition that lets one be a sound card and the other not

    For a moment, let's assume this verbal diarrhea is true. That means telephones have sound cards. Which means the sound card was invented by Antonio Meucci in 1856, 102 years before the first integrated circuit was perfected.

    Which is, of course, total bollocks.



  • You can fill your room with a high-purity vacuum to make the bluetooth signals move more smoothly, though!


  • BINNED

    @aliceif said:

    high-purity vacuum

    I bet that can only be obtained by using a proper gold plated vacuum pump.


  • FoxDev

    @Luhmann said:

    a proper gold plated vacuum pump.

    unfortunately that would not lead to the highest purity vacuum. to achieve that one would need to use the platinum-iridium pump.

    it really is made exclusively out of a high strength platinum-iridium alloy and so is of the highest purity.



  • Sound card, video card, serial card, scsi card ad infinitum....

    Can you see the pattern there? No? Ok try: hand bag, carrier bag, paper bag, shoulder bag ..........

    Well, that's not strickly a good analogy. The point is the "card" denotes (or it used to) that it was physically separate and implied it needed to be plugged in. In the old days they were heavily analogue (talking exclusively about sound cards now), had limited power output and where a better alternative to the "speaker" (replaced by a buzzer, and now a beeper) I had an Apple II, it was my first computer cost me ยฃ1750, with drive and 64KB RAM. It had a speaker; it had a dedicated memory address that was effectively 1 bit wide. Set a 1, and the speaker coil got 5 volts up it's backside forcing to move rapidly upwards (it was placed face up on the MB. Clear the 1 and it fell back down.

    Congratulations, you have just created a single sound wave. Mess about with frequency and duration of that 1, you could get a musical note. You could make reasonable music but there were limits 'cos the Motorola 6502 had 1 Mhz clock (I blew the arse out of mine but trying to double the crystal frequency 14Mhz to 27 Mhz the 14 being needed to drive the analogue video synch).

    Long story short.... too late (must credit the post I saw that). Software improved hardware improved, "Sound Card" now means anything from a physical thing, to the entire sound subsystem inside your pc box, even if it "hotbunks" various resources.

    Blah, blah blah.

    What I wanted to say, but didn't want to get involved with this flame war, was:

    Built in stuff is good and quality is getting better all the time. Like when you want to some serious gaming, you go out and get the most serious video card you can afford (and when that fails you start upgrading the important stuff like memory, bus, CPU and network speeds - with me I went from crap 120mhz pc on 9600 modem to crap 120mhz Pc on cable). So with audio: if you want to urn you PC into a high quality with 3, 5, 7, 999999999:1 surround sound system, you go out and by a sound card.



  • @lightsoff said:

    If that's all you did, then you get silence.

    Not if you're running Windows. I've done it. Try it your fucking self if you don't believe me, as I said before. It only takes a moment and a reboot to test.

    @lightsoff said:

    If you remembered to connect the 2 pin digital audio link cable from the motherboard integrated audio, then that may answer the question.

    I just built a computer with a nice shiny new NVidia GPU, and it didn't even have a "2-pin digital audio link cable". That might have been necessary at some point in history; it isn't now.

    @loose said:

    Long story short.... too late (must credit the post I saw that).

    It's from the movie Clue.

    @loose said:

    What I wanted to say, but didn't want to get involved with this flame war,

    You just wanted to post gibberish for no reason.

    @loose said:

    So with audio: if you want to urn you PC into a high quality with 3, 5, 7, 999999999:1 surround sound system, you go out and by a sound card.

    If you're an idiot, sure.

    If you're an intelligent human being who believes in things like objective measurement, you realize that your Human Ear Mark I can't tell the difference between a cheap integrated audio device and an expensive discrete one or probably (for that matter) a computer with no audio hardware that's doing all the mixing in the CPU.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    That might have been necessary at some point in history;

    My Geforce 250 came with one, the 460 I had later on didn't.



  • I'm guessing the window of time between HDMI needing audio input, and Windows/NVidia driver supporting it through the driver was a pretty tiny. Like I said, Windows XP was perfectly capable of supplying audio to a USB headset, and that was long before HDMI was a thing.


  • FoxDev

    @blakeyrat said:

    your Human Ear Mark I can't tell the difference between a cheap integrated audio device and an expensive discrete one

    if all you're putting for sound output is standard 2.0 or 2.1 (includes subwoofter) speakers then yeah there will be no difference.

    a proper 5.1 or 7.1 surround with an audio source that includes positional sound cues (like modern video games will produce if you have the correct output setup) will make a noticable difference (again, and i do stress this, when the audio source includes the necessary tracks for true 5.1 or 7.1 sound).

    still assuming your integrated system can produce the 5.1 or 7.1 signals then yeah. most home users don't have the acoustic equipment nor the acoustically tuned room to have a hope of hearing the difference between an integrated card and a discrete.


  • kills Dumbledore

    @accalia said:

    most home users don't have the acoustic equipment nor the acoustically tuned room

    Or the ears. I've seen some self declared audiophiles who were absolutely convinced they needed all their music in lossless formats get convinced to take an ABX test and discover they couldn't tell the difference between a 192kbps MP3 and a lossless track.


  • FoxDev

    @Jaloopa said:

    Or the ears.

    well yes, but that's harder to measure and therefore argue from a position of authority about.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    It's from the movie Clue.

    Never seen it, not even sure what it is about. "Long Story Short" has been in the public domain for ages. The "too late thing" I first saw here and thought it was cool, and would reuse it - it's not as:

    @blakeyrat said:

    You just wanted to post gibberish for no reason.

    I don't need it as you so aptly pointed out.

    As for the

    @blakeyrat said:

    no reason

    I thought that if I could get everything "out there" - right back to the beginning, it could illustrate how pointless the whole (sub)discussion was.

    @blakeyrat said:

    If you're an idiot,

    The jury is still out on that one.

    Hmmm. "...checks gibberish counter....yep! That should be enough...."

    My current PC has built in 7:1 with all the connectors and shit.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    If you're an intelligent human being who believes in things like objective measurement, you realize that your Human Ear Mark I can't tell the difference between a cheap integrated audio device and an expensive discrete one or probably (for that matter) a computer with no audio hardware that's doing all the mixing in the CPU.

    That "audio hardware" must exist somewhere, even if it's a $2 DAC crammed into the rump of a USB plug. Of course it's possible to do the mixing and effects in PC software, that's just turning your PC into a rather large and power-hungry part-time DSP. Without a DAC to turn those bits into a waveform that can be amplified to drive a speaker though -- all you'll get is 4 minutes and 33 seconds, looped.

    Going back to the olden days -- PC processors weren't the firebreathing beasts they are today, which made dedicated sound hardware (synthesizer, effects/mixing, and DSP) more essential if you wanted any sort of noisemaking beyond annoying beeps. However, it is the analog chain, the DAC and components downstream of it, that determines how good it sounds, both to your Mark I ears and when measured on the lab instruments.

    And that is what has been receiving improvements recently when it comes to integrated sound. The first codec chips were designed for telephone work -- they were used in massive TDM POTS switches, where all they had to handle was 8-bit encoded voice data (ยต-law or A-law) at 8kHz sampling rates that didn't have to sound good (because telephone company). From that evolved more sophisticated audio codecs, shedding the A-law/ยต-law support in favor of wider and faster DACs (and ADCs).

    The first "audio grade" codecs were 16-bit/44.1kHz, or "CD quality", at least on paper -- but their performance was hampered in integrated applications by being plopped on a digital board with little care regarding layout or supply noise. Keep in mind that the ability of analog components to reject incoming noise (whether it be common-mode noise on inputs or noise on the power supply) rolls off with frequency. This meant that if you just hooked a codec up to the same supply rails as your VRM and your PCI bus, you'd get a whole bunch of rectified-RF hash in the output from switching noise coupled back into the power supply rails to the codec; worse yet, plopping it wherever on the PCB and running traces willy-nilly resulted in digital switching coupling into analog signals and getting turned into more rectified-RF hash.

    However, codec chips improved -- the use of wider-bandwidth analog stages with feedback bandlimiting meant that power supply and common-mode rejection improved in turn, and bit rate and sample width support improved as well. Furthermore, motherboard makers started to get a handle on this mixed-signal layout thing -- proper board layout and routing kept noisy digital traces from coupling into analog signals, and supply noise reduction techniques such as filtering and placing things on different supplies (I wouldn't be surprised if moving VRMs onto 12V cut a significant chunk of switching noise off the 5V and 3.3V rails) kept the power noise from coupling into audio circuits.

    Filed under: 30 cents of ferrite bead can be the difference between awesome sound and awful sound



  • @tarunik said:

    awesome sound and awful sound

    I see what you did there ๐Ÿ˜†



  • @tarunik said:

    That "audio hardware" must exist somewhere, even if it's a $2 DAC crammed into the rump of a USB plug. Of course it's possible to do the mixing and effects in PC software, that's just turning your PC into a rather large and power-hungry part-time DSP. Without a DAC to turn those bits into a waveform that can be amplified to drive a speaker though -- all you'll get is 4 minutes and 33 seconds, looped.

    Duh?

    Who's said otherwise?

    @tarunik said:

    Going back to the olden days

    Who gives a shit. Fast-forward.

    @tarunik said:

    The first codec chips were designed for telephone

    Still fast-forwarding...

    @tarunik said:

    The first "audio grade" codecs were 16-bit/44.1kHz, or "CD quality", at least on paper

    Hitting fast-forward again...

    @tarunik said:

    kept the power noise from coupling into audio circuits.

    And I'm at the end of the post and you didn't say anything even slightly interesting or relevant. Congratulations.



  • You know, you guys keep saying that you can play sound over USB without a soundcard... but is that really true?

    In a modern PC, the Southbridge chipset processes audio:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC'97

    Whether that's used when doing sound output to USB devices, I couldn't say... but I will note that the Southbridge chipset also controls USB.


  • FoxDev

    @powerlord said:

    you guys keep saying that you can play sound over USB without a soundcard

    At no point has anyone said anything even remotely like that



  • @blakeyrat said:

    And I'm at the end of the post and you didn't say anything even slightly interesting or relevant. Congratulations.

    Go lay out a motherboard and then come back to me when it sounds like fried donkey rump roast because the codec was routed and supplied improperly. ;)

    Filed under: EMC is important, dude!



  • But how is it relevant to the conversation?



  • @Jaloopa said:

    I've seen some self declared audiophiles who were absolutely convinced they needed all their music in lossless formats get convinced to take an ABX test and discover they couldn't tell the difference between a 192kbps MP3 and a lossless track.

    That's probably because you were using cheap Ethernet patch cables, which are well known for muddying the sound stage. You need the special ones with the inbuilt 70V DC battery to keep the shield foil properly energised.

    Also, it helps if you replace the volume knob on your amplifier with a wooden one.



  • @flabdablet said:

    wooden one

    Had a wooden car once. It had a wooden engine and it had wooden wheels.

    And it wouldn't go.



  • Did you try using a magnetic fuel economy maximizer?



  • Yes, but the wood wasn't seasoned properly and was too dry. So it soaked up all the fuel before the magnetic megatron could energise the flux capacitor and thus achieve maximum permeability and enhance the osmosis effect ๐Ÿ˜ง



  • The bad jokes thread is โ†”



  • @Magus said:

    The bad jokes thread is

    Don't have a go at me! He โ†” @flabdablet started it. ๐Ÿ˜‡



  • @loose said:

    Don't have a go at me! He @flabdablet started it.

    Urmmm, no it was me actually ๐Ÿ˜ฏ



  • @loose said:

    Urmmm, no it was me actually

    But he โ†” @flabdablet ๐Ÿฅš me on :innocent_whistling:



  • How about all of you shut up.



  • ๐Ÿ”‰ of :silence:
    :sage_brush:


  • โ™ฟ (Parody)

    @blakeyrat said:

    How about all of you shut up.

    Just turn off the sound card in your headphones and you won't hear any of it.



  • I'm disappointed lightsoff hasn't come back here to post really incredibly stupid shit.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @RaceProUK said:

    The HDMI lead carries the audio, so that solves the lack of line-out/speaker jack

    It does? Where then, pray tell, does the sound come from, if there's no speakers or jack on the monitor?


  • FoxDev

    @FrostCat said:

    Where then, pray tell, does the sound come from, if there's no speakers or jack on the monitor?

    A different sound output on the PC?


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @RaceProUK said:

    A different sound output on the PC?

    Ok, first off, pretend I didn't even write that because Discurse tricked me by marking a shitload of threads I'd read yesterday as not read. But to answer your answer, no, that's :moving_goal_post:


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