Soundcards are bullshit



  • @redwizard said:

    The problem isn't new, either. I found a blog post that shows Creative Labs problems have existed since the beginning of the year. "Just wanted to let you know, we are working on the Creative issues that popped up in 9926. There are several threads on this forum that mention them. Thanks!" wrote a Microsoft staffer in a January post.

    Creative's drivers have been complete shit since Vista.

    @redwizard said:

    Six months later, sound drivers for the most widely-used brand of sound cards are still broken.

    There is NO WAY that is REMOTELY true. Creative the most widely-used brand of sound cards? I bet they're barely in the top 10.

    Andy Patrizio is either reporting from inside a magical timepod, or he's so many decades out-of-touch with the state-of-the-art he has NO BUSINESS talking about an OS upgrade coming in 2015.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    so many decades out-of-touch with the state-of-the-art

    Since he's talking about migrating from 7, and the look of 10 seems to astound him (which it shouldn't, if he's seen 8; 10 is just a further whack from the same ugly stick) I'm thinking that's the right explanation.


  • sockdevs

    @blakeyrat said:

    Creative the most widely-used brand of sound cards?

    if you are talking about PCI/PCIe add in sound cards i'd be willing to bet that creative still has that market cornered. mainly because they're about the only company that still makes those. it's a rare computer that has/needs a PCI add in sound card.

    the last time i had an add in sound card it was because i'd managed to blow out the integrated sound card when i blew out the speaker amp (i did a stupid on the upgrade and it backfed to the computer when it blew) so i bought an addin card to keep the computer going, in the store creative was my only option.

    maybe it wouldn't have been the only option if i went to amazon, but i was impatient and wanted to game that day.

    you're right about the drivers being shit though. that was on Win7 and the driver was flaky as hell.


  • BINNED

    They may be the most widely used external sound card? Still puts them pretty much irrelevant in real world usage since consumer PCs almost exclusively use the built in sound



  • @accalia said:

    if you are talking about PCI/PCIe add in sound cards i'd be willing to bet that creative still has that market cornered.

    I bet they still don't. I don't have data to back that up, except even among my friends who are gamers and "high end" computer users who all build their own machines, I haven't seen a Creative card in at least 5 years.

    I can virtually guarantee no off-the-shelf PC or laptop has had a Creative card in a decade. And that's like 97% of the PC market.


  • sockdevs

    @blakeyrat said:

    I can virtually guarantee no off-the-shelf PC or laptop has had a Creative card in a decade. And that's like 97% of the PC market.

    yes, but those computers don't have discrete audio cards. they have integrated.

    I'm talking about the 3% of the market that has discrete audio cards. A casual perusal of newegg.com shows that Creative and CreativeMedia have the market for discrete PCI sound cards pretty well covered. all the cards that list their sound chip that are PCI based and less than 50$ all are either Creative branded or use the C-Media CMI87XX chipsets


  • sockdevs

    Also, Creative's range on Amazon is at least 2-3 times more than any other brand. And the local PC parts store I use only stocks five discrete sound cards, four of which are Creative.



  • @accalia said:

    yes, but those computers don't have discrete audio cards. they have integrated.

    Right; and yet that doesn't mean Microsoft should give a shit about fixing Creative's buggy, shitty drivers for them. Given their track record, Creative cards should be ready for Windows 10 in about 3 years.

    I guess Geezer McLuddite who wrote that article somehow missed the extreme incompetence Creative showed when Vista came out. He's probably their last loyal customer after that clusterfuck.

    @accalia said:

    A casual perusal of newegg.com shows that Creative and CreativeMedia have the market for discrete PCI sound cards pretty well covered.

    Stupid people buy shit out of inertia. "Creative was good in 1993! Therefore I should buy Creative in 2015!" Same reason The Simpsons is still on the air.


  • sockdevs

    @blakeyrat said:

    Right; and yet that doesn't mean Microsoft should give a shit about fixing Creative's buggy, shitty drivers for them.

    not saying it does mean that. because it doesn't

    if you rely on MS fixing your bugs for you you deserve to have a bad day.

    @blakeyrat said:

    Stupid people buy shit out of inertia. "
    well that and there really isn't much choice. if i blow out my integrated sound card and need an add in i pretty much have to get Creative becuause they're the only ones available for a reasonable price and replacing the whole computer is a non starter.



  • @accalia said:

    if i blow out my integrated sound card and need an add in

    If that happens you're also in a magical fairyland full of whimsy and wonder, and you can just ask your good friend Mr. Metalboots to fix it with his Sparkling Wavey-Wand.

    Besides, this is 2015. Every video card with an HDMI port is also a sound card. Your USB port is also a sound card. Your bluetooth antenna is a sound card, a wireless one. Your computer has like 57 sound devices.



  • FWIW, they make a decent stereo speaker set, likely because there are no drivers to belgium up.


  • sockdevs

    @blakeyrat said:

    Every video card with an HDMI port is also a sound card.

    assuming you have a monitor with HDMI if you use an external sound device you'll not likely be able to chain through the monitor for that.

    @blakeyrat said:

    Your USB port is also a sound card
    yes, but PCI sound cards are cheaper ($12 vs $25 minimum)

    @blakeyrat said:

    Your bluetooth antenna is a sound card, a wireless one.
    assuming

    1. you have a bluetooth headset/stereo
    2. the connection is stable (which it's not likely to be in a high em noise invironment such as an office or a geeks room)
    3. you don't need high fidelity sound such as you would for PC gaming.


  • Jebus. Look this is all fantasy-world anyway because you can't burn out an integrated sound card without burning out the motherboard itself. You don't need to come up with 345754628345672314576812q5tr342158324582 justifications of why I'm wrong, just give it a rest.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    you can't burn out an integrated sound card without burning out the motherboard itself.
    I've done it.The sound/MIDI/gamepad controller chip shorts out to motherboard ground, burning itself to death but sparing the rest of the system. Not totally unrealistic when you hook it up to an actual amp rather than the Karman Hardon squeakers the computers ship with.


  • sockdevs

    @blakeyrat said:

    because you can't burn out an integrated sound card without burning out the motherboard itself.

    Really? because that';s what happened to my previous desktop computer.

    sound card chip had a nice crater in it and the rest of the mobo was just fine.

    so if you say it's impossible to burn out the sound card without burning out the mobo i must either be the most idiotic person in the world and that chip was still working despite the crater, or i was imagining the five years i used, worked, and gamed on that computer after that card blew.



  • @accalia said:

    sound card chip had a nice crater in it and the rest of the mobo was just fine.

    I've had the same thing happen with an onboard NIC after lightning took out an ADSL modem.



  • @accalia said:

    i must either be the most idiotic person in the world and that chip was still working despite the crater, or i was imagining the five years i used, worked, and gamed on that computer after that card blew.

    Neither would surprise me.


  • sockdevs

    @blakeyrat said:

    Neither would surprise me.

    Likewise your response was anticipated.

    Thank you for your vote of confidence. I shall file your feedback in triplicate with the relevant governing bodies.


  • BINNED

    Careful, don't want mod warnings



  • Hey, people set 'em up, I knock 'em down. No apologies for that.



  • Cut it out youse guys or I'll post more of this.



  • I kind of like that.



  • In that case...



  • Diggin' that photo, too. I want that tie. You could use it as a parachute.



  • Fine.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    Besides, this is 2015. Every video card with an HDMI port is also a sound card. Your USB port is also a sound card. Your bluetooth antenna is a sound card, a wireless one. Your computer has like 57 sound devices.

    But you can't get gold plating on your Bluetooth. Who'd want to listen to music on that?


  • sockdevs

    @boomzilla said:

    Cut it out youse guys or I'll post more of this.

    /me looks at the photo.

    I'd be remarkably okay with that...



  • @blakeyrat said:

    Besides, this is 2015. Every video card with an HDMI port is also a sound card. Your USB port is also a sound card. Your bluetooth antenna is a sound card, a wireless one. Your computer has like 57 sound devices.

    I just discovered this the "hard" way. Just finishing getting a new system up and running - and no sound. :wtf:? It used to work... Oh, the HDMI monitor fucking stole it. (reset default to speakers and all is good again).


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    Based only on the excerpt: I ran into the same thing with build 10122, but noticed the tray icon also was grayed out. And then after I closed the troubleshooter, a few seconds later a "did you plug in a headset or what?" dialog popped up. I answered it and sound started working. Go figure.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @blakeyrat said:

    Creative's drivers have been complete shit since Vista.

    You probably mean "since 3.1" or maybe "since 95", not "since Vista", but whatever.

    Creative's drivers have always been a bit weird, even though they mostly more or less work.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @blakeyrat said:

    Every video card with an HDMI port is also a sound card.

    How's that work when neither the video card nor the monitor have a line-out/speaker jack, and the monitor doesn't come with speakers?

    This is a real question; my home monitor has (small but serviceable) speakers, but my son's doesn't. What do you do, use some kind of adapter?


  • sockdevs

    The HDMI lead carries the audio, so that solves the lack of line-out/speaker jack



  • @FrostCat said:

    How's that work when neither the video card nor the monitor have a line-out/speaker jack, and the monitor doesn't come with speakers?

    If the video card has an HDMI port, it has a speaker jack.

    Whether the monitor has speakers or not? Somebody else's problem.

    @FrostCat said:

    This is a real question; my home monitor has (small but serviceable) speakers, but my son's doesn't. What do you do, use some kind of adapter?

    If a monitor accepts HDMI and has no speakers, it should have a 3.5mm jack out so you can plug in speakers. Because if it's consuming HDMI, it should (one way or another) be able to deal with the audio part of it.

    That said, my expensive Dell monitor doesn't, which pissed me off and if I'd known that I might not have bought it. It didn't even occur to me to check, since, "if the device consumes HDMI it should be able to deal with the audio stream" is so goddamned obvious.

    (Weirdly, the monitor with the 3.5mm jack is also a Dell, and a significantly cheaper one. Huh.)


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @RaceProUK said:

    The HDMI lead carries the audio, so that solves the lack of line-out/speaker jack

    Yeah, awesome, but the monitor doesn't have speakers. (My son's actually might have a headphone jack, but I'm at the office and can't check).


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @blakeyrat said:

    Whether the monitor has speakers or not? Somebody else's problem.

    That's what I suspected. The Dells I have at work have the ports facing downward (and are also DVI, but I don't know if that matters) and I don't feel like picking 'em up to see if they have a 3.5mm jack--in this case it's not important anyway because I have front and back 3.5mm jacks on the tower, if I need sound.



  • Read the rest of my post.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @blakeyrat said:

    Read the rest of my post.

    I did. The part I quoted, and the sentence before that, was enough of an answer for my purposes.

    I figured either that was going to be the answer, or there was some other wrinkle I didn't know about, like an HDMI-HDMO dongle with a separate 3.5mm breakout or something.


  • sockdevs

    @FrostCat said:

    and are also DVI, but I don't know if that matters

    If I'm not mistaken, DVI is video-only



  • @FrostCat said:

    The Dells I have at work have the ports facing downward (and are also DVI, but I don't know if that matters)

    DVI doesn't carry audio.

    If they also have HDMI ports (DVI and HDMI aren't mutually-exclusive), they should support the audio stream of those in some way. (Either by playing them through its own speakers, or providing a port you can plug speakers into.)


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @blakeyrat said:

    DVI doesn't carry audio.

    I thought so but wasn't sure. The video card I put in my work computer has HDMI and DVI out, but the monitors all only have DVI in, so I guess this doesn't even apply to them.



  • @accalia said:

    if you are talking about PCI/PCIe add in sound cards i'd be willing to bet that creative still has that market cornered. mainly because they're about the only company that still makes those. it's a rare computer that has/needs a PCI add in sound card.

    I run with an HT Omega Claro in one of my PCs -- that was bought oh, 7 years ago though...

    (The other PC is integrated-sound-only, but that's to be expected when you only have 3 PCIe x1 slots to play with...)



  • @blakeyrat said:

    Every video card with an HDMI port is also a sound card. Your USB port is also a sound card

    Neither of those things are even remotely true.

    Most video cards with HDMI ports can take a digital feed from a sound card and package it over HDMI.

    USB can be used to talk to a sound card. Just like PCI-E, except with terrible jitter.

    I'll give you bluetooth, as that is at least a standard audio codec, just with no DAC.


  • sockdevs

    @lightsoff said:

    USB can be used to talk to a sound card

    Clearly you've never used a USB headset; no sound card there



  • I have. The sound card is integrated into the headset.
    (Well, usually in the oversized USB connector to be precise.)

    Where do you and blakeyrat think the codec and the DACs are?


  • sockdevs

    @lightsoff said:

    The sound card is integrated into the headset.

    DAC <> sound card
    And the codec is done on the CPU side, obviously.



  • It isn't.

    Unless you have a very odd definition of sound card, in which case no motherboard with integrated sound has a sound card either.


  • sockdevs

    Bullshit; Windows does all the sound mixing before sending the sound data to the headset.

    Why do you think the Volume Mixer is part of Windows?



  • That's not a sound card. It's a digital mixer, but does not perform any of the hardware functions that a sound card does.

    One can have the digital mixing with no sound card system whatsoever. See Audacity for an example.

    There's no way to get the noise out without a sound card, but you can still mix it - just like you can transcode video with no display driver.

    WTF do you think a sound card does?



  • @lightsoff said:

    Most video cards with HDMI ports can take a digital feed from a sound card and package it over HDMI.

    That works with no sound card; it takes the digital feed from the OS' mixer directly. Disable your sound card and try it.

    @lightsoff said:

    USB can be used to talk to a sound card.

    It can, or it can get/send audio samples to the OS' mixer directly. If you plug in a USB headset, there's no sound card involved in sending it audio.

    (NOTE: I'm speaking of Windows here; Linux might be a broken mess of shit.)


  • sockdevs

    @lightsoff said:

    That's not a sound card. It's a digital mixer, but does not perform any of the hardware functions that a sound card does.

    So if the mixing is done digitally, all that's left is to run the resulting data through a DAC. Which isn't a sound card. It's a DAC.


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