On pronouns and sex


  • sockdevs

    Continuing the discussion from Silly toys of childhood days:

    @FrostCat said:

    I try not to make a big deal of it, but knowing the actual sex of the people under the personae makes it uncomfortable for me to use an arguably-wrong pronoun.

    Why is her arguably wrong in this case?

    She has expressed a clear preference for one mode of address and asked you to address her as female. I'm not seeing how that could be wrong.

    You certainly seem to have no trouble with me and I've not made it a secret that my biological sex doesn't match my gender and that i would prefer to be addressed in a manner matching my gender and not my sex.

    I'm not trying to pick on you here, i'm genuinely confused as to the reasoning behind your stance and would like more information/background to help me understand it.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @accalia said:

    Why is her arguably wrong in this case?

    Because using the female pronoun cross-threads me, knowing that there's a male under the persona.

    @accalia said:

    You certainly seem to have no trouble with me

    I don't have trouble with either of you. I just don't like the pronoun mismatch. It's irrational, I am well aware of that, which is why I haven't said anything until now, although I knew when I started using silly pronouns recently I'd probably wind up accidentally letting it get out. I didn't want to even bring it up, except


  • sockdevs

    @FrostCat said:

    knowing that there's a male under the persona.

    Now i can't speak for @RaceProUK but for me there isn't a male under here. i have the body of one and for cultural reasons i conform to the male sex role in public (using the restroom, wearing pants not dresses, etc.) but that's not me identifying with the male sex role, that's just me not making waves in public where i have nothing to gain by doing so.

    @FrostCat said:

    I don't have trouble with either of you
    ah. my bad there. i underspecified my point. I was referring to your use of pronouns and only your use of pronouns. nothing more. My applogies should i have offended there.

    @FrostCat said:

    It's irrational, I am well aware of that, which is why I haven't said anything until now,

    oh. well then. question answered. Thank you.

    carry on then. nothing to see here. move along folks. move along.

    although.... where did you get that comic from. neither Tineye nor RGIS found the source...


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @accalia said:

    although.... where did you get that comic from.

    You don't know about Freefall :interrobang: Here's the first strip: http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff100/fv00001.htm (the archive is well over 2500 strips. It'll keep you busy for a while.)


  • sockdevs

    @FrostCat said:

    You don't know about Freefall

    i do now.

    welcom e to my comic collection.


  • sockdevs

    @FrostCat said:

    he archive is well over 2500 strips. It'll keep you busy for a while.

    you might be surprised.

    it took me 2 days (a wednesday and a thursday) to catch up on this one from the beginning:

    also worth it. ;-)



  • @accalia said:

    Why is her arguably wrong in this case?

    First of all, without quotes around "her", this sentence is grammatically incorrect.

    Second of all, here are ten pronouns that can refer to people: ko'a ko'e ko'i ko'o ko'u fo'a fo'e fo'i fo'o fo'u

    If you really need to talk about sexes, we have dedicated words for those: nakni fetsi ninmu nanmu nunmu

    We also don't assume all people are human. For example, @accalia and @RaceProUK are prenu but not remna.



  • Is it bad that I saw that image and immediately thought "that's an interesting Discourse skin"?



  • @accalia said:

    it took me 2 days (a wednesday and a thursday) to catch up on this one from the beginning:

    I did that when TDWTF introduced me to Girl Genius a couple of months ago, although it took me four days. Which reminds me, I haven't been keeping up with it. So much for getting anything else done this evening.



  • @ben_lubar said:

    ten pronouns

    The discussion is about English pronouns. Discussion here takes place in English. Unless otherwise indicated, it can reasonably be assumed that in any grammatical discussion, only English grammar is relevant.



  • You're acting like @blakeyrat. "Oh dear, we can't have anyone mentioning alternatives in our debate about which thing to use!"


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @ben_lubar said:

    Is it bad that I saw that image and immediately thought "that's an interesting Discourse skin"?

    No, but it's bad how much Lojban you used in your previous post.



  • o'anai


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    You keep your o'anaism to yourself.



  • @FrostCat said:

    o'analsm

    :giggity:





  • @FrostCat said:

    You keep your o'anaism to yourself.

    Given Ben's level of geekiness, I don't think that will be difficult.



  • lo ba'e xirma cu nobli danlu



  • @ben_lubar said:

    lo    ba'e  xirma cu             nobli  danlu

        The babe Irma  sees you, noble Daniel



  • Well, two of those words are correct. ba'e and cu don't have direct translations to English because they're done nonverbally (ba'e is "emphasize next word" and cu is "next word(s) are verb of sentence"). So we're left with these two:

    and


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @accalia said:

    Now i can't speak for @RaceProUK but for me there isn't a male under here. i have the body of one and for cultural reasons i conform to the male sex role in public (using the restroom, wearing pants not dresses, etc.) but that's not me identifying with the male sex role, that's just me not making waves in public where i have nothing to gain by doing so.

    So you're actually trans? Or at least significantly closer to it than the average man?

    I think that comes across in the consistency of your persona, whereas @raceprouk comes across much more as a dude pretending to be a girl for shits and giggles. That's probably why you get less trouble with people using the wrong pronoun than her



  • @accalia said:

    Now i can't speak for @RaceProUK but for me there isn't a male under here. i have the body of one and for cultural reasons i conform to the male sex role in public (using the restroom, wearing pants not dresses, etc.) but that's not me identifying with the male sex role, that's just me not making waves in public where i have nothing to gain by doing so.

    So you're physically a male, but you consider yourself female, but you behave like a male, except here, where you're behaving like a female, also a furry, also a lesbian, also a fox, also a persona, but not quite really.

    Can you see this getting a little confusing?



  • @Maciejasjmj said:

    Can you see this getting a little confusing?

    Only because you seem to be over thinking it


  • sockdevs

    @Jaloopa said:

    I think that comes across in the consistency of your persona, whereas @raceprouk comes across much more as a dude pretending to be a girl for shits and giggles. That's probably why you get less trouble with people using the wrong pronoun than her

    Possibly. Though the simpler explanation of @accalia having only ever presented herself as female is a big help :wink:



  • That's my thinking as well - I did not at all realize @accalia was not biologically female until the thread about heights recently (6'3", IIRC, is very tall for a woman anywhere). You, on the other hand, will always be followed by the fact you originally presented as male.



  • @Maciejasjmj said:

    also a furry, also a lesbian, also a fox

    Things that don't impact on pronoun usage. I can understand your general point though.

    My interpretation is that @accalia is trans, but not transitioning/ed and as such is male in public to avoid awkwardness/prejudice/other negative things. In addition to being outright murdered in some countries, trans people rarely get treated very well in even the most progressive countries - of which america isn't particularly one in this case - so I can understand that choice.


  • sockdevs

    @Jaloopa said:

    So you're actually trans?

    That's not a label i really associate with myself, even if it is fairly accurate.

    @Maciejasjmj said:

    So you're physically a male,
    yep.

    @Maciejasjmj said:

    but you consider yourself female
    correct

    @Maciejasjmj said:

    but you behave like a male, except here, where you're behaving like a female
    look, society be cruel and i have nothing to gain by pushing the matter IRL, but i have everything to lose. I'll just keep me mouth shut and pretend nothing's the matter. it's easier and safer for me that way.

    @Maciejasjmj said:

    also a furry,
    correct

    @Maciejasjmj said:

    also a lesbian,
    not entirely correct. in my current relationship yes, but it would be more accurate to label me demisexual or pansexual

    @Maciejasjmj said:

    also a fox
    you did mention furry, no?

    @Maciejasjmj said:

    also a persona, but not quite really.
    only insofar as i'm not using my real name, and the fox thing, the rest is me. without a persona.

    @Maciejasjmj said:

    Can you see this getting a little confusing?
    yeah i guess i can, doesn't make me happy really, but it is understandable.


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @accalia said:

    That's not a label i really associate with myself, even if it is fairly accurate

    Hence the

    @Jaloopa said:

    significantly closer to it than the average man

    I always assumed it was more forum persona than meatspace, but I get that acting like you really feel can be a shit when society at large sees it as weird


  • sockdevs

    @Jaloopa said:

    I always assumed it was more forum persona than meatspace,
    nope. other than the not getting my real name and the fox thing you get the real me here.

    i do try and punch up the silly a bit because i don't get to do it that much IRL but that's not so much a persona as cutting loose and having fun.

    @Jaloopa said:

    but I get that acting like you really feel can be a shit when society at large sees it as weird

    yeah that sucks, I agree there.

    what really sucks is when large portions of society see it as deviant and worse to act in the particular way that you really feel....



  • @accalia said:

    what really sucks is when large portions of society see it as deviant and worse to act in the particular way that you really feel....

    I'd be careful with blanket statements like this, for obvious reasons.

    @accalia said:

    i do try and punch up the silly a bit because i don't get to do it that much IRL but that's not so much a persona as cutting loose and having fun.

    And I'm pretty much 100% sure that people here take less issue with the whole gender thing than the silly.


  • sockdevs

    @Maciejasjmj said:

    I'd be careful with blanket statements like this, for obvious reasons.

    okay, fair. they're not necessarily large, but by the goddess are they vocal about it!



  • @Maciejasjmj said:

    So you're physically a male, but you consider yourself female, but you behave like a male, except here, where you're behaving like a female, also a furry, also a lesbian, also a fox, also a persona, but not quite really.

    Can you see this getting a little confusing?

    She told you she's a female, and here, the only place you interact with her, she behaves as a female. What difference does it make to you whether she's an innie or an outie, so to speak, or whether she finds it convenient/safe to dress as a man in public places IRL?



  • @ben_lubar said:

    You're acting like @blakeyrat. "Oh dear, we can't have anyone mentioning alternatives in our debate about which thing to use!"

    You didn't mention an alternative. You mentioned lobjam.



  • On pronouns and sex

    I can't believe it hasn't been said yet, but obviously the most important ones are me (or I) and you.



  • @CarrieVS said:

    She told you she's a female

    And you told me you're a cyborg cat. I suppose I'm to take it at face value?

    Look, I know on the internet nobody cares if you're a dog, but at least pick one story and stick to it. And try to make it relatively uncomplicated for the sake of people around. Either declare "I'm a guy, period", "I'm a girl, period", "I'm a pre-op m-to-f transsexual, period", "I'm an anthropomorphic fox that somehow holds a job in IT despite the lack of opposable thumbs, period", or whatever you want, but for God's sake, pick one instead of mudding the waters as to what's real, what you want to be real, and what's just a forum roleplay.



  • People are what they say they are. That applies to names, genders, sexual orientations, etc. Don't overthink it.

    The difference between accalia and RaceProDUCK is consistency. RaceProDUCK spent months and months and months and months, during which time we were all getting to know her, as "male" (or at least, not caring if someone called her male) then, at some arbitrary point in time, changed her mind and was "female". Without changing names, or anything else to indicate the change, except that stupid field in the Discourse profile nobody ever looks at.

    So:

    • Be whatever you want but,

    • Decide what the fuck you want to be, then be it. Consistently.

    • Realize that 99.999% of people on the Internet are going to associate your pronoun with your username, so if you change the pronoun without changing the username you're inviting confusion.



  • @boomzilla said:

    lobjam



  • Wait... half of the women on this forum have dicks?

    So much for proportional representation...


  • sockdevs

    .... if you want to be crude about it....

    -_-

    not that i take offense mind. others might though.


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @Bort said:

    Wait... half of the women on this forum have dicks?

    Still better than all the women on this forum having half a dick....

    Filed Under: Just saying!



  • The Internet: Where men are men, women are men, and 13-year-old girls are FBI agents.


  • mod

    Dear Internet,

    I still have not yet received my penis. Please advise.

    Sincerely,
    Yami



  • @Yamikuronue said:

    I still have not yet received my penis

    Waaaaayyyyyy too easy.. Not going there..
    :giggity:



  • so, you're with the federals?





  • @ben_lubar said:

    lojban disagrees

    Why am I not surprised that lojban authors wouldn't distinguish one from the other.



  • Completely unrelated but this reminds me of the time when one of my female colleagues, not the most well versed in english, yelled into the corridor (she was late for a meeting):

    "I'll be with you in a minute! I'm just looking for my cherry!"

    ... which she had dropped behind her desk.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @Maciejasjmj said:

    Why am I not surprised that lojban authors wouldn't distinguish one from the other.

    There are two English terms that it could roughly translate to: Genital tubercle or Primordial phallus.


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    Lojban disagrees with everything that makes any sense



  • @Yamikuronue said:

    Dear Internet,

    I still have not yet received my penis. Please advise.

    Sincerely,
    Yami

    CIS PRIVILEGE!

    Or something.


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