WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else



  • Windows 10 is slated for release in less than 2 months. I'd have expected there to be a feature lock at some point. To reserve the last few weeks for spit and polish before the big event.

    So when I checked out Scott Hanselman's last week's preview video, I expected to see a mature beta-quality product, with all its features well designed and locked down for the upcoming release. Instead...

    Windows 10 - 10122 - Technical Preview Tour of Changes – 11:45
    — Scott Hanselman

    Wow.. that looks bad. Few things seem to have improved since my first dev preview months ago. In fact, the new start menu looks much worse, both in the full screen and desktop layout.

    But OK, here comes the new Hanselman video. Perhaps Microsoft was trying out the last few speculative ideas, before they do the feature lock and start polishing. Perhaps we'll finally see the nice stable outline of the new OS.

    Windows 10 - 10130 - Technical Insiders Preview - Tour of Changes – 10:14
    — Scott Hanselman

    WHAT THE FUCK is going on!? This looks even worse! My old alpha dev preview felt more stable than this! You can tell Hanselman is trying to be a good shill, but even he is worried.

    Can MS really fix up all this shit in less than 2 months? The time is ticking, and this doesn't look ANYWHERE NEAR ready for release.



  • @cartman82 said:

    Can MS really fix up all this shit in less than 2 months? The time is ticking, and this doesn't look ANYWHERE NEAR ready for release.

    Given the resources MS have available… maybe.



  • Yeah, last time I tried, the start menu stopped working for no reason, among several other problems.

    And the latest build was released just 6 days ago[1]. I don't know what they're doing. Maybe the builds they are releasing are not actually using the latest codebase they have? Or maybe some boss somewhere just decided to set the release date 2 months from now no matter what.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @RaceProUK said:

    Given the resources MS have available… maybe.

    Because adding more people to a problem always makes it easier to solve! (Provided the problem is “lack of meetings”, it's even true!)



  • Release fast, release often. The Windows 10 you'll see in two months will be the true beta which they will iterate over. You just wait.



  • The Start menu is now an application using the whole complexity of the AppX/Immersive application framework, embedded using the same (crashy) ApplicationFrameHost that now houses the 'modern' Alt-Tab and other Immersive applications, minus the additional complexity of app containers (which would make the entire shell not work with UAC disabled at all, even though lots of settings moved to the Immersive Control Panel which won't run with UAC fully off anyway), however including the shell itself being an AppX package which fails to be registered half the time, Start Menu shortcut search currently being broken since fixing my profile on the upgrade from 10122 -> 10130 (as something broke with the Microsoft Account sign-in service that broke UAC completely causing any application elevating to hang indefinitely waiting for a RPC call, including the 'Settings' app, and disabling UAC from a secondary admin account obviously breaking the Settings app so I couldn't 'natively' switch back to a non-Microsoft account, so I had to change the ProfileList and get myself a new SID while trying to change the existing SID in the ACLs neatly, which apparently broke the ShellExperience AppX package...) :sunny:

    The rest of the shell is fine though, outside of this AppX Start menu mess; it felt better in the first previews when it used the internal-usage-only DirectUI framework the 8.x Start screen used... definitely more reliable.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    Holy run-on sentence, Batman! Dude, do you ever remember to breathe?



  • @Eldelshell said:

    Release fast, release often. The Windows 10 you'll see in two months will be the true beta which they will iterate over. You just wait.

    The sad thing is, you might be right. Sad, since they probably won't get their shit together in the first year, so if you decide to wait with an upgrade until they fix the bugs, you give up your right to do it for free.

    When I've heard about the release date, I thought "no fucking way, this thing is still just a tiny bit beyond alpha" - and I was right, it seems.



  • Open source-y developers release broken shit all the time, and people love it. Look at Discourse.

    Maybe Microsoft's just following that example.


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @blakeyrat said:

    Look at Discourse

    Do you thin the 10 in the Title of Windows stands for the amount of years we have to wait for computers to catch up to Windows now?

    Jeff and Satya Nadella probably look at the exact same date.

    Filed Under: Just imagine: A Windows system that is able to run Discourse without trouble :dream:
    Also Filed Under: Not sure what :dream: should look like



  • @blakeyrat said:

    Open source-y developers release broken shit all the time, and people love it. Look at Discourse.

    Discourse is fine if you look at the competition in the forum software market... ;)



  • We have. It's not.


  • sockdevs

    @Magus said:

    We have. It's not.

    to be fair all the other offerings are also painfully bad in one aspect or another, on par with or worse than discourse in that aspect..... but of course that aspect they fail at is you know..... not the entire forum experience.

    though i may be developing stockholm syndrome because i don't think discourse is that bad anymore.



  • At least they fail predictably. "Oh, right, they must not have gotten that bit right." vs jellypotato.



  • @accalia said:

    though i may be developing stockholm syndrome because i don't think discourse is that bad anymore.

    I know what you mean: with a bit of polish, it could be a pile of shit ;)

    And random trivia: you can actually polish shit. So long as it's the right type, of course.



  • Speaking of Windows 10, has anyone else not gotten the upgrade notification icon?

    My work laptop doesn't have it, but that could be for any number of group policy/enterprise version related reasons. But there's nothing like that on my home desktop, which still doesn't have it.



  • Could be a region thing; the UK and the US have had the offer, I know that


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    I dunno about you, but at my office we run Windows 7 Starship Enterprise Edition. Which doesn't have upgrade notifications.



  • Indeed, free upgrade does not apply to Enterprise editions of Windows as companies using W7/W8 Enterprise have Software Assurance agreements, which entitles them to an update anyway (given that said agreement is still valid at the time of release of W10).



  • @RaceProUK said:

    Could be a region thing; the UK and the US have had the offer, I know that

    It's possible, but I haven't been able to find anything about any regional restriction. I figure if the UK has it, Canada should probably have it as well.

    @powerlord said:

    I dunno about you, but at my office we run Windows 7 Starship Enterprise Edition. Which doesn't have upgrade notifications.

    Yeah, my work computer runs 8.1 Enterprise so I figured that was it. But at home I've got 7 Pro with SP1 and the optional update that's supposed to enable the notification.



  • @hungrier said:

    Speaking of Windows 10, has anyone else not gotten the upgrade notification icon?

    I'm in Canada, running Win7, got the notification, and started running in the opposite direction :p



  • @hungrier said:

    Yeah, my work computer runs 8.1 Enterprise so I figured that was it. But at home I've got 7 Pro with SP1 and the optional update that's supposed to enable the notification.

    My friend in NZ isn't getting it, but he;s pretty sure it's because he pirated it. It could be that, or NZ.



  • I had heard that even pirated versions would get it, but they would have the "This copy of Windows is not geniune" watermark or something, but IIRC that was a rumour that hasn't been confirmed.

    I'm mostly hoping that my MSDNAA version isn't in some purgatory state where it's legit and gets all the updates but no free Windows 10 upgrade.



  • @TimeBandit said:

    running Win7,got the notification, and started running in the opposite direction

    So you downgraded to XP?



  • @hungrier said:

    MSDNAA

    Should work. My home PC has a MSDNAA-licensed Windows, and it got the memo.



  • Looks like I'll have to dig deeper when I'm at home.



  • All my Windows 8 systems have the notification, but none of my Windows 7 ones do.

    Actually, I need to check my Surface and see if it has the notification. It'll be funny if it does because it's an ARM system running Windows RT.



  • I didn't watch all of both videos, but I watched enough to get the impression that the newer build is like using Dischorse: it behaves except when it doesn't. And it eats resources like Pac-Man pops pills.



  • I should boot up my 8.1 partition and see what happens. Haven't run updates in a few months at least...



  • @boomzilla said:

    Haven't run updates in a few months at least

    We'll see you in a year then ;)


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    I've seen the symbol on a Win7 machine. I'm not in a hurry to see whether it works; major OS version updates always make me a bit nervous…



  • @NTAuthority said:

    Discourse is fine if you look at the competition in the forum software market...

    It's a market full of really really shitty solutions, yes I agree. If Atwood has ANY skill in software development, it's finding problem areas whose existing solutions are shitty.

    That said, every single one of those competitors is orders of magnitude more reliable, most (if not all) of them have more features (including the 2008 pile of shit we migrated from), and most of them are staffed by developers who aren't gigantic assholes.



  • @accalia said:

    though i may be developing stockholm syndrome because i don't think discourse is that bad anymore.

    The scrollbar is still broken.



  • You aren't in a hurry to see if submitting your email address in a form works? You must have some pretty low standards.


  • sockdevs

    @blakeyrat said:

    The scrollbar is still broken.

    you would be amazed at my ability to not care about that given the ability to jump to an arbitrary post and the fact that pageup/pagedown work



  • Well pick your favorite bug. Say, "typing '5.' in the text results in '1.' appearing in the post". Then every time you start to think maybe Discourse isn't that awful, just remember your bug and how it's still not fixed, and that'll cure you.



  • @accalia said:

    pageup/pagedown mostly work
    Discourse waits too long to load more posts, which breaks the last pageup/down before loading new posts.



  • @accalia said:

    you would be amazed at my ability to not care about that given the ability to jump to an arbitrary post and the fact that pageup/pagedown work

    I'm not sure what's going on in blakey's browser, but my scrollbar works just fine with discourse. I can scroll anywhere on the page with it.



  • @boomzilla said:

    I'm not sure what's going on in blakey's browser, but my scrollbar works just fine with discourse.

    Liar.

    It takes me about 5 seconds to repro the state where your cursor is pressed down on the scrollbar thumb while being miles away from it on the screen. I'd take a screenshot but I don't have a screenshotter handy on this computer that'll record the mouse cursor position.

    @boomzilla said:

    I can scroll anywhere on the page with it.

    Since the location of the mouse cursor quickly becomes detached from the location of the scroll thumb, no you can not. You're limited artificially by the top and bottom of the screen on long threads.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    It takes me about 5 seconds to repro the state where your cursor is pressed down on the scrollbar thumb while being miles away from it on the screen. I'd take a screenshot but I don't have a screenshotter handy on this computer that'll record the mouse cursor position.

    That sounds like a browser or window manager problem.

    @blakeyrat said:

    @boomzilla said:
    I can scroll anywhere on the page with it.

    Since the location of the mouse cursor quickly becomes detached from the location of the scroll thumb, no you can not. You're limited artificially by the top and bottom of the screen on long threads.

    The entirety of the long thread isn't the page. There's other stuff up / down that's off the page. The dimensions of the page often change on this side of your timepod door.



  • @boomzilla said:

    The entirety of the long thread isn't the page.

    For all practical purposes it is. You're making pedantic dickweed assertions here.

    @boomzilla said:

    The dimensions of the page often change on this side of your timepod door.

    Right; and changing the dimensions of the page while the scrollbar thumb is depressed is a huge bug that's never been fixed and likely never will be fixed.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    For all practical purposes it is. You're making pedantic dickweed assertions here.

    No, I'm just looking at the situation as it exists.

    @blakeyrat said:

    Right; and changing the dimensions of the page while the scrollbar thumb is depressed is a huge bug that's never been fixed and likely never will be fixed.

    Is it? It's not obvious to me why this would be.



  • @boomzilla said:

    Is it? It's not obvious to me why this would be.

    Eh...OK, I wasn't clear on what you were talking about here. Yes, that can lead to weirdness. Can you detect whether the button is down when the user is dragging the thumb?



  • @boomzilla said:

    Is it? It's not obvious to me why this would be.

    Because it will cause the scrollbar thumb to move out from under the mouse cursor AS I JUST FUCKING STATED YOU RETAR--

    @boomzilla said:

    Eh...OK, I wasn't clear on what you were talking about here.

    Oh you already knew that you were just being dumb.

    @boomzilla said:

    Yes, that can lead to weirdness.

    They're called "bugs". It's not difficult to figure out how a scrollbar thumb is supposed to work.

    @boomzilla said:

    Can you detect whether the button is down when the user is dragging the thumb?

    Who is "you" in this context?

    I don't think Discourse developers could detect their ass with both hands.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    Oh you already knew that you were just being dumb.

    No, I figured out how to reproduce it and tried it.

    @blakeyrat said:

    Who is "you" in this context?

    Anyone. :rolleyes:



  • @boomzilla said:

    Anyone.

    That makes the question even dumber.

    Can anyone detect whether the button is down when the user is dragging the thumb? Well, at minimum, the user who's holding it down. On all computers without touchscreens, the only way of dragging the thumb is by holding the mouse button (or trackball, or equivalent) down, so... it's kind of a tautology on those platforms.

    Since I know that's not what you mean, maybe when I ask for clarification you could say something that MAKES SOME FUCKING SENSE, huh?



  • @blakeyrat said:

    That makes the question even dumber.

    Holy fuck you're obtuse. The changing is happening via javascript. So it would be a reasonable assumption by a programming savvy person to assume that I was asking if you could do it with javascript.

    Javascript is a programming language that browsers run so that web pages can (among other things) do more interesting things than just show static content. A browser (or web browser) is the program that most people use to view and interact with web pages. You're likely using one right now.

    @blakeyrat said:

    Since I know that's not what you mean, maybe when I ask for clarification you could say something that MAKES SOME FUCKING SENSE, huh?

    I know, I keep getting fooled into thinking I'm talking to a human. Should we chalk this up as another failed Turing Test for you or what?



  • @boomzilla said:

    Holy fuck you're obtuse.

    I'm just reading the text you put on the screen.

    I don't know if you can do it with DOM. (You certainly can't with JavaScript, since JavaScript has absolutely zero UI code in it's standard library whatsoever, but I suppose pointing out that JavaScript is not the same thing as DOM is me being obtuse and not-at-all you being an ignorant motherfucker.)

    Whether or not the bug can be fixed, it is still a bug.



  • @hungrier said:

    there's nothing like that on my home desktop, which still doesn't have it.

    There is a specific "important" Windows update you have to install to get it. Just updated; just got the notification (although, so far at least, it's just an icon in the notification area; no pop-ups, yet).

    Edit: As I read further, I see you already have it. :hanzo:



  • @blakeyrat said:

    I'm just reading the text you put on the screen.

    Not very proficiently.

    @blakeyrat said:

    I don't know if you can do it with DOM. (You certainly can't with JavaScript, since JavaScript has absolutely zero UI code in it's standard library whatsoever, but I suppose pointing out that JavaScript is not the same thing as DOM is me being obtuse and not-at-all you being an ignorant motherfucker.)

    Pointing out that Javascript isn't DOM is just the latest example of you being wrong and a pedantic dickweed at the same time. Can you figure out why? Of course you can't. It's because we're talking about using javascript to (presumably) call some function or check some property that's part of DOM. Or whatever, no one except you really cares about this incorrect distinction you're making.

    @blakeyrat said:

    Whether or not the bug can be fixed, it is still a bug.

    You could have just said, "I don't know."


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