Using Windows for a Day Cost Mac User $100,000 (and it's not related to anything else totally)
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The other thing that I think PPAs could do (someone can correct me if I'm wrong) is provide packages that they "shouldn't". So for instance, if I add your PPA so I can install TheAwesomes, you or someone who compromises your PPA can not only give a new version of TheAwesomes but could say "hey here's a new patched version of coreutils you should totally install it".
Yeah, that happens. The deb-multimedia repo (not actually part of Debian) used to do that kind of thing; not with coreutils, but certainly with assorted dependencies for the main packages it offered. That repo ran its version numbering in a way that meant that any package from deb-multimedia would always appear to be newer than the same package from Debian proper, regardless of the actual underlying version numbers; took me a while to work out that old deb-multimedia packages hanging around was why things kept breaking for me even after I'd switched to the official Debian multimedia repo for all my multimedia goodness.
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Is linux docs really better than MSDN? I don't work with windows so don't really know MSDN, but if you want to know what a linux standard structure or constant looks like, you have 2 options:
- Guess which function it's documented with
- Look in the system headers.
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I don't work with windows so don't really know MSDN
The big problem I have with MSDN is that it almost invariably gives you a worm's eye view of what's going on. By clicking around you can find out everything, but it's often not drawn together into a cohesive whole: the trees are obscuring the forest most effectively.
Most Linux docs are documented at a slightly higher level (even if not as much higher as I'd like sometimes) and that makes using them easier, and for at least the APIs I work with, that includes both the structure definitions and usages and the magic constants to use together with a description of how to do it. Except for some things that aren't documented at all (it's a few months since I looked for proper docs of Wayland; did they bother to document that right yet?) but I usually take that as a sign that it's best not to use that bit of API.
Finding the right function is a matter of knowing or using Google to find a relevant Stack Overflow question. On all platforms…
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The big problem I have with MSDN is that it almost invariably gives you a worm's eye view of what's going on.
If you're actually in the MSDN library, you can get a lot of bigger-picture context by moving up a couple of tree levels in the documentation; almost all of the API is paired with a "how to use this functionality" section.
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Most Linux docs are documented at a slightly higher level
You must be aware of some magical source of documentation I haven't seen. Care to share?
(The "wtf" name of that emoticon is too strong, but it looks pretty much like the "I strongly disagree sir" face I want to convey. :-))
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Yes, this is all true. But it's easier to enforce discipline on a particular activity (banking with a LiveCD) than always keeping the machines up to date, never going to dodgy things on the internet, etc.
I am approximately 0% likely to log into any of my accounts on someone else's computer.
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Of course the fact that Linux development is an order of magnitude more difficult than any other platform
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[Citation Needed]
Blakeyrat has released many pieces of Windows software, and hasn't managed it for Linux. Therefore, Linux development is more difficult
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@boomzilla said:
Yes, this is all true. But it's easier to enforce discipline on a particular activity (banking with a LiveCD) than always keeping the machines up to date, never going to dodgy things on the internet, etc.
I am approximately 0% likely to log into any of my accounts on someone else's computer.
You don't have any money so it doesn't matter.
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Articles like these remind me of how Edison used to electrocute animals to show that AC electricity was dangerous.
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all I'm asking for is a single anecdote
I've been using Windows OS (version 3.0 originally, currently on Windows 7) as my home computing platform since 1994. No MACs, no Linux, nothing else save the recent acquisitions of Android phones I use except co-termed DOS OSes until about 2001.
I don't let my kids touch the computer (they have their own). My wife is given a restricted user account to limit any damage.
I've used online banking services since around 2001. Have accessed dozens of accounts several times a month over the years just to track my finances, while recent years I've used bill pay services, etc.
To date, number of times it resulted in me losing money: 0 (As in 0 incidents total, not x number of incidents where money was given back later - just 0 incidents.)
Does that qualify?
Using a Mac was still better security for the average guy than using Windows.
Oh, I guess not. -_-
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Oh yeah? How do you make an app with native-looking windows and widgets on Linux? How many completely different UI layers do you need for that? (Hint: on every other OS, it's one.)
You pick a UI toolkit and stick with it. How is that hard?
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You got it all
FTFYbackwardscorrect, so no.
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@boomzilla said:
You got it all
FTFYbackwardscorrect, so no.That's not Fixed For Me, since he got the point backwards and talked about a Windows thingy that didn't get exploited instead of a Mac / LiveCD, so I'm not sure why you think it was fixed.
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no
Seemed to me the discussion was about the article headline implying Windows is insecure. I provided anecdotal evidence that, when properly used and maintained (like anything else), Windows is perfectly fine for the job, thus refuting the article's misleading headline.
At this point I don't think anyone here is clear on what exactly you're looking for?
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At this point I don't think anyone here is clear on what exactly you're looking for?
You even quoted a bit that should have been a hint. I'm not sure why anyone thinks I asked for an anecdote about someone using windows and not getting hacked.
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You even quoted a bit that should have been a hint. I'm not sure why anyone thinks I asked for an anecdote about someone using windows and not getting hacked.
Ok, so:
Using a Mac was still better security for the average guy than using Windows. Not in a theoretical sense, because yes, malware exists for all sorts of platforms, but in a real sense because they weren't being targeted.
His continual advice was to use a LiveCD. He also said that using a Mac for this was better than Windows. Which certainly used to be the case.
You may be hard pressed to find anyone with the discipline to use a LiveCD to boot to every time they do online banking. As for a Mac getting compromised, I've seen that in the field - but I haven't seen an instance where it led to someone's bank accounts getting emptied out (yet).
Further, I'm not an "average guy," nor is anyone else in this forum. Any anecdotal evidence of a Mac being compromised to empty bank accounts provided by any of us here will probably be secondhand as a result.
I personally know of about 25 Mac users total - and 20 of them use them at work at a publishing company (in other words, they don't own one), where they are NOT going to do online banking. This out of about 100 clients (i.e., businesses) I've serviced over the years. The footprint just isn't that large out there to begin with. Plus, in recent years my main job has taken up most of my time, leaving me little left to work on my own business.
Perhaps someone else (maybe @Polygeekery?) who's currently more active in the support field has other data they can share?
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You may be hard pressed to find anyone with the discipline to use a LiveCD to boot to every time they do online banking.
Probably just the guys who lost tens / hundred of thousands of dollars. Also, this (the advice and malware) was mainly targeted at businesses, since that's where the money is.
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So GTK works in KDE now? And works so well you can't tell the difference between it and an actual KDE app?
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Perhaps someone else (maybe @Polygeekery?) who's currently more active in the support field has other data they can share?
Honestly, most of our clients are required to use RSA fobs that work with IE to authenticate their accounts, so based upon our sampling of business people...they wouldn't be able to use either a LiveCD or a Mac. Crap like that is seemingly very commonplace for our clients.
We even have one client that is in some weird fucking limbo where one institution they work with only supports IE > 10 and another only supports IE < 10 and the lower version requirement will not run in compatibility mode and to top it off they also have an issue where their bank requires Adobe version > 8, but their idiotic developers don't know how to do fucking string conversion and it shows 10 < 8, AND they have another conflict where yet another institution sends them PDFs that will lock up Reader version 9.
This is the kind of shit that we have to sort through on a daily basis.
TL;DR, most people who work on developing banking websites are fucking idiots.
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So GTK works in KDE now?
Yes -- they both talk to the same underlying X11 drawing code -- when was that ever not the case?!
And works so well you can't tell the difference between it and an actual KDE app?
Appearance/themeing aren't going to be the same -- but you generally expect that from a cross-toolkit application.
TL;DR, most people who work on developing banking websites are fucking idiots.
Sad, but true...
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Appearance/themeing aren't going to be the same -- but you generally expect that from a cross-toolkit application.
Hey look, if I stick around long enough and pull enough teeth PEOPLE FINALLY GET THE FUCKING POINT.
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I'd categorize "GTK apps don't obey KDE themes" as a pretty insignificant bug in the grand scheme of things, compared to some of the horrors I've seen
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So GTK works in KDE now? And works so well you can't tell the difference between it and an actual KDE app?
There's a theme that makes GTK+ look like Qt. The thing that gets you is the file dialog. I find Qt's far superior personally, but I can't say I've ever gone into a rage about it. Probably about as annoying as finding a Windows app that doesn't use the latest common controls dll or set its manifest correctly.
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Hey look, if I stick around long enough and pull enough teeth PEOPLE FINALLY GET THE FUCKING POINT.
I hate different things because they scare me.Is that it?
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Or isn't Unicode-using (because it wouldn't make any sense to use Unicode in the app in question)
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I personally pay some attention to it when writing code for myself (I've seen specs that mention 5-bit Baudot, still...), but it isn't significant for the types of backend things I typically do, where the other side would think Unicode was some sort of fried donkey rump roast.
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I mean...I wouldn't notice whether an application that I'm using supports it properly. Because I generally have no reason to use anything that isn't also valid ASCII. <blah blah 7-bit bullshit qualifier
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Hey look, if I stick around long enough and pull enough teeth PEOPLE FINALLY GET THE FUCKING POINT.
If only there were a way for you to come right out and say that at first.
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I always underestimate the tolerance Linux users have for really buggy broken software.
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There's a difference between "This thing looks a little different" and "This thing is broken to the point of being unusable"...
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There's a difference between "This thing looks a little different" and "This thing is broken to the point of being unusable"...
Not to rodents. They look for the Microsoft seal of approval.
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Not to rodents. They look for the Microsoft seal of approval.
Do I have to start mailing Blakey some Redmond-approved capybaras? :P
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Showing the wrong file chooser dialog is an obvious bug.
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I would agree, but no one said that happened.
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Showing the wrong file chooser dialog is an obvious bug.
How is it wrong? How do you expect one toolkit to know about a totally unrelated toolkit's file chooser dialog? The tooth fairy?
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There's a theme that makes GTK+ look like Qt. The thing that gets you is the file dialog.
How is it wrong?
How isn't it?
Look, Linux users love bugs. I get it. Fine.
My only issue is when you come in here and are all like, "you can run any Linux GUI app on any Linux GUI distribution and everything looks and acts native!" because that's a fucking lie. And I'm gonna call you out when you lie like that.
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What I'm trying to say is that your notion of "native" isn't nearly as big a deal to Linuxians as you make it out to be. A Qt app on a GNOME or Xfce box is merely somewhat quirky-looking compared to the GTK+ apps that normally inhabit that DE, that's all.
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How isn't it?
You said "The wrong one." You're wrong that this happens. QED.
My only issue is when you come in here and are all like, "you can run any Linux GUI app on any Linux GUI distribution and everything looks and acts native!" because that's a fucking lie. And I'm gonna call you out when you lie like that.
That's not what happened. Liar.
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What I'm trying to say is that your notion of "native" isn't nearly as big a deal to Linuxians as you make it out to be.
Why are you repeating me.
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@tarunik said:
What I'm trying to say is that your notion of "native" isn't nearly as big a deal to Linuxians as you make it out to be.
Why are you repeating me.
You have an inability to context switch or believe that there is any other way but the way that the voices in your head (possibly from the aliens on your shoulder) tell you is The Right Way. It's a lot like talking to Atwood actually.
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What I'm trying to say is that your notion of "native" isn't nearly as big a deal to Linuxians as you make it out to be. A Qt app on a GNOME or Xfce box is merely somewhat quirky-looking compared to the GTK+ apps that normally inhabit that DE, that's all.
I would say "native" isn't even well-defined in the Linux world. Do Qt apps look native? GTK? Both? Neither?
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Why are you repeating me.
Because I probably should be breaking out the
's for whoosh at this point? Seriously -- X11 was designed in a toolkit-agnostic manner -- it provides the mechanisms for people to put GUIs up on the screen, but delegates policy -- what those GUIs should look like and how they should behave -- to other components of the system -- the GUI toolkit establishes the nature of widgets, while the window manager controls windowing policy.Also -- I'd like to see a mode for RDP that allows you to have seamless presentation of remote apps, just sayin'. ;)
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I'd say it's normally determined by what DE you have -- GTK+ apps are "native" on GNOME and Xfce boxes, while Qt apps are "native" on KDE boxes. Of course, if you run some other WM, it's up to you what's "native" for your box, if anything ;)
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I wonder at this point if his definition of "native" is really "looks like a Windows app".
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I wonder at this point if his definition of "native" is really
"looks like a Windows app"
.FTFY
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Also -- I'd like to see a mode for RDP that allows you to have seamless presentation of remote apps, just sayin'.
Just sayin'.
Note: All usual disclaimers apply, the assumption that I understood the statement correctly, nothing lost in translation, etc., etc., etc.
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Nifty! Now if they'd just provide that for desktop Windows instead of restricting it to Terminal Servers...
