Windows 10 can-of-worms, Episode II: @Mike_Hunt strikes back
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I don't think I've ever had that. What kind of things do you have in your startup?
Fucking Garmin.
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I'd rather have a fully-patched system than willingly expose all those security flaws to the world.
I like a fully patched system too. I just want to do it on my time (I have it set to tell me, but not do it). Because all gazillion programs (chrome, firefox, adobe, MS security essentials, ...) with autoupdaters will inevitably set on each other when they try to update at the same time.
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Or not...
edit: Firefox
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Apparently it's browser specific then. Beautiful.
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Chrome:
Nice discoursistency
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Try it in widescreen+min, and watch it go off the page!
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@redwizard said:
@blakeyrat said:
@redwizard said:
Novell made networks for PCs a standard.
AppleTalk, yo. Yo, AppleTalk.
Never used AppleTalk.
OH WELL THEN I GUESS IT DIDN'T EXIST.You sure showed me. Your flawless logic has exploded my brain.
Since you insist:
Oh look, both developed around the same time (80's).
Specifically on Appletalk, VERY FIRST SENTENCE (emphasis mine): AppleTalk is a proprietary suite of networking protocols developed by Apple Inc. for their Macintosh computers.
What did I say above?
Novell made networks for PCs a standard.
IPX/SPX Wiki, Implementations section: "Novell is largely responsible for the use of IPX as a popular computer networking protocol due to their dominance in the network operating system software market (with Novell Netware) from the late 1980s through the mid-1990s."
So your AppleTalk comment is irrelevant. Go away.
Next up:
Do you see how my claim is different than your claim? I'm saying: "the ribbon makes people more productive". You're saying, "people hate the ribbon because they're luddite morons with ossified brains". Those are two different claims; yours does not say anything relevant to mine.
Let me spell this out for you then:
People get frustrated at not being able to find things in the ribbon. This not being able to find things and associated frustration and upset leads to lost production and inefficiency. Which directly counters your claims.
Also:
Nothing. But for me - not for your mythical "scientific" "average" user - The Ribbon makes these significantly less useful, by overwhelming them with visual clutter.
I have no doubt that The Ribbon has been usability tested out the wazoo. But the simple fact is that there are many valid reasons why it does not suit certain people, myself included, and that given Office's total user population, the number of people it does not suit is large.
The amount of effort that you, and other fanboi fucktards like you, expend on telling people like me that I am stupid, backward, a Luddite or whatever because I don't like a UI that you do like is just unbelievable. Get a life.
+1 to @flabdablet
QED.
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People get frustrated at not being able to find things in the ribbon. This not being able to find things and associated frustration and upset leads to lost production and inefficiency. Which directly counters your claims.
People get frustrated at not being able to find things in the menus. This not being able to find things and associated frustration and upset leads to lost production and inefficiency. Which directly counters your claims.
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People get frustrated at not being able to find things in the menus. This not being able to find things and associated frustration and upset leads to lost production and inefficiency. Which directly counters your claims.
My claim was in the context above which was for people who knew how to use the menus. That was my original point - the "re-learning how to drive" part was frustrating for many, PLUS in many cases the new setup was worse for them than the menus.
What's good/intuitive for one person isn't necessarily good/intuitive for another.
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Ah, I see.
Carry on ;)
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Well, here's the thing: How far are you willing to bend over in the name of backwards compatibility?
At some point you will have to make a clean break - maintaining two different UIs is usually a bad thing.
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They could have reorganized the menu tree to make more sense without implementing a new UI.
That being said, per the study @blakeyrat linked to above, they did their homework and appear to have done the right thing overall. You can't make everyone happy.
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That's what I was talking about - they found the new UI to be more efficient. And then you have two choices: Maintain two versions or discard the old one.
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What's good/intuitive for one person isn't necessarily good/intuitive for another.
That. I find the ribbon harder to use because to me it's very visually cluttered. My image processing node sucks compared to my text processing one... (Yes, I have a hard time putting names to faces too.)
I have no doubt it's more efficient for most people. But I'm not most. That said, I'm not saying we should go back or even maintain both. (And for some weird reason, I do find the ribbon in Win10 explorer works for me.)
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This not being able to find things and associated frustration and upset leads to lost production and inefficiency.
That is not a given. That is a theory that needs to be tested. Have you tested it?
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@redwizard said:
People get frustrated at not being able to find things in the ribbon. This not being able to find things and associated frustration and upset leads to lost production and inefficiency. Which directly counters your claims.
That is not a given. That is a theory that needs to be tested. Have you tested it?I have to believe you're trolling here. Look at above comments by @flabdablet and @dcon - that alone should tell you there's something to that. Further, this thread alone shows the topic to be controversial at best.
Second: scientific theories can be tested and shown to yield multiple equal results before it's accepted by the scientific community as valid/proven. You have provided ONE study - by Microsoft, which can't be considered objective. I don't see any other studies either way on this. Do you?
I am willing to give Microsoft the benefit of the doubt on this, because they bothered to do a study and because I'm not into any conspiracy theory of something like "they did 10 studies, threw out the 9 bad ones and only published the good one to make a point" [not to say I don't discount the possibility either, just much more unlikely.])
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This is why nobody does usability studies anymore: because we all think we're experts and chuck out the results before we even begin.
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Further, this thread alone shows the topic to be controversial at best.
So is the moon landing, if you go by what random morons on the Internets say.
You have provided ONE study - by Microsoft, which can't be considered objective. I don't see any other studies either way on this. Do you?
Nope.
Who else would have any reason to test it? Microsoft's the only one designing the product.
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So is the moon landing, if you go by what random morons on the Internets say.
Except this isn't a forum of random morons. :P
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I thought first rule of Net Admin-Fight-Club was not mention things the Task Scheduler is good at being abused for.
Of course I've never used it to launch a process as Local System. Why would I ever need to
abusedo that?
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They could have reorganized the menu tree to make more sense
That would have been just as bad, IMHO. The issue, for me at least, was not the ribbon per se, it was that things weren't where I was accustomed to them being, and there a period of temporarily decreased productivity while learning where to find them. This would have been true of reorganized menus, too.
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That would have been just as bad, IMHO. The issue, for me at least, was not the ribbon per se, it was that things weren't where I was accustomed to them being, and there a period of temporarily decreased productivity while learning where to find them. This would have been true of reorganized menus, too.
I get what you're saying.
Keep in mind the new UI didn't follow the old menu pattern - it reorganized it. So we had TWO changes implemented at once: new UI, new menu pattern.
So it was worse.
Devil's advocate: But if we only changed the UI in one release, then reorganized the menu patterns in the next release (or vice versa), then people are relearning how to drive twice!
So in the end, they decided to bite the bullet and do it all at once. Probably the best choice, if you're going to do it at all, which they clearly decided to do.
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Yup
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If I had that software, I would document the shot, turn off UAC, suffer a documented loss as a direct result and sue the $$#@*$ out of them.......[at least I can have a pleasant dream of doing so[
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You might want to upgrade to v3.32 or later. Or perhaps you might want to decide that the quickest and simplest method for solving this problem is for you to avoid buying software from nongs who would rather editorialize in dialog boxes than write their applications properly.
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This is why nobody does usability studies anymore: because we all think we're experts and chuck out the results before we even begin.
To be fair, some of them fully deserve to be chucked out before we even begin.
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Thankyou for reminding me of a UI change that so many rebelled against without even using it first
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Except this isn't a forum of random morons.
Yeah, we're a forum of pseudorandom morons.
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@Yamikuronue said:
This is why nobody does usability studies anymore: because we all think we're experts and chuck out the results before we even begin.
To be fair, some of them fully deserve to be chucked out before we even begin.
Well, that's the thing... Microsoft actually did usability studies while (from what I can tell) Firefox did a "OMG Asa Dotzler said this would be awesome so lets do it!!!!" study.
Edit: Oh hey, I mentioned Asa Dotzler in the linked thread too.
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There is one fundamental UI failure in the Ribbon: File operations like Save and Print.
When you go to the ribbony bit for these file operations, your entire document vanishes, replaced by a list of other documents you might have opened in the past.
Thus you have to remember the document title yourself before saving - it's not visible behind the save as dialog.
Even worse, I've had several users convinced that they just lost everything, entirely because of that.
It's obviously stupid, so why did MS do that?
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There is one fundamental UI failure in the Ribbon: File operations like Save and Print.
Could be worse. They could still have you clicking on the little MS logo / ball thing that always looked more like window chrome than an application menu / button to me.
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now if you want to change my keyboard shortcuts on me i will call up a bunch of my fellow anti-mouse users and we will grab our torches, pitchforks and drive to your office where we will introduce said items to various portions of the anatomy of the person or persons responsible for fxxing with our keyboard shortcuts until the issue is resolved.
I am guessing that you have not upgraded to Office 2013?
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/me gets out the torches and pitchforks
i have not. what fuckhead thought it was a good idea to change the keyboard shortcuts on me‽
and no, changing them back for office 15 won't save them!
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What shortcuts have changed?
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^that
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What shortcuts have changed?
Fuck if I know, but I know that when we upgraded an accounting client to 2013 they flooded us with questions about shortcuts changing. We deleted the normal.dotm files to recreate them and it persisted. I ended up making a guide on how to customize shortcuts so that they could put it back the way they were used to.
My guess is something in Excel due to said accounting client.
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I found this:
Keyboard shortcuts that begin with Ctrl will still work in Microsoft Excel 2013. For example, Ctrl+C still copies to the clipboard, and Ctrl+V still pastes from the clipboard.
Most of the old Alt+ menu shortcuts still work, too. However, you need to know the full shortcut from memory — there are no screen reminders of what letters to press. For example, try pressing Alt, and then press one of the old menu keys E (Edit), V (View), I (Insert), and so on. A box pops up saying you're using an access key from an earlier version of Microsoft Office. If you know the entire key sequence, go ahead and initiate the command. If you don't know the sequence, press Esc and use Key Tip badges instead.
It appears that most, if not all, of the old shortcuts still work.
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True. I never used or supported that version, thankfully we skipped it.
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We deleted the normal.dotm files to recreate them and it persisted.
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Shortcuts are stored in those
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No; the shortcuts are defined by the program, not the templates. Unless the templates have some VBA or something.
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That's what I hoped...... Phew
