FIFA also some nationalist trolling and political debate



  • So the US has a bunch of FIFA officials arrested due to corruption charges. Why is this important? Because of stories like this, which show that their decision to have the World Cup has cost about 4,000 lives so far. People are literally dying.

    Next time some European accuses the US of acting like the "world police", keep in mind that European countries who were all perfectly aware of the abuses going on in the FIFA leadership, did nothing to right this obvious wrong.



  • As I understand it, the US ended up being the country to have both the evidence and, under their own laws, the jurisdiction to take action. Still weird for the US to take action against a sports organization which is mainly popular in Europe and South America.



  • I don't understand this "corruption" thing.

    The world "corruption" usually relates to elected officials or government workers. FIFA is a private organization. I can see their heads being arrested for fraud or bribery. But corruption? Dunno, it just doesn't feel like something that should apply to non-governmental organizations.



  • @cartman82 said:

    Dunno, it just doesn't feel like something that should apply to non-governmental organizations.

    Wat
    Http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption
    (bribery is a subclass of corruption)



  • @swayde said:

    Dunno, it just doesn't feel like something that should apply to non-governmental organizations.

    Wat

    Correction - to for profit companies. If the CEO of Apple takes bribe to use a specific hardware vendor, for example, that feels like "fraud", not "corruption".

    Just the semantics, I guess.



  • First - what is a governmental organization, and what is not? Because for all practical purposes, FIFA is about as non-govt as United Nations.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    Next time some European accuses the US of acting like the "world police",

    Acting like "world police" is fantastic, when it's ACTUALLY your police. Hammer those crooks!

    When ye act more like the "World Police" from the movie and blow shit up, that's a little less welcome ;)



  • @Gaska said:

    First - what is a governmental organization, and what is not? Because for all practical purposes, FIFA is about as non-govt as United Nations.

    That's TRWTF



  • + all countries re-elected the damn idiot again and again as head of the FIFA. Joker doesn't even resign or steps down as candidate after several of his high ranking people are arrested.

    Most UEFA-countries + US + Canada are supposed to vote against Blatter. The Belgian Chairman already publicly stated that Blatter is unacceptable.



  • @cartman82 said:

    FIFA is a private organization

    but it's officials are elected as voted for by the smaller federations (like UEFA) who would prefer decisions were based on merit rather than money they don't even get a piece of.

    The definition of corruption certainly supports it's use in this context, and I would have thought corruption in private entities is still something very much cared about by its board members and/or shareholders, who are those making the most noise in this case.

    Putin obviously came out and said the US should have stayed out of it, because he's Russian and that's how he rolls. Uefa, the FIFA subsidiary of europe, demanded that Sepp Blatter step down, again. Having made similar demands the last time there was a leadership battle, because we all knew about the corruption and nobody seemed to have any means to act against it. Uefa originally planned to boycott the vote, until they realised that would just guarantee Blatter would stick around.

    International law in these circumstances is REALLY confusing. Nobody particularly has much jurisdiction in this case, which is why the US has as much as anyone else (US institutions are involved in the company, and hence the US has jurisdiction is how I understand it). The only exception being maybe the Swiss, since FIFA is based there. But then, what with the whole Nazi gold thing, Switzerland don't particularly have the best history in terms of ethical practices



  • @algorythmics said:

    but it's officials are elected as voted for by the smaller federations (like UEFA) who would prefer decisions were based on merit rather than money they don't even get a piece of.

    It's all very confusing. But the voting thing doesn't change the underlying organization. Microsoft could be organized in such way as to have a bunch of smaller regional companies, who then vote for the overarching CEO.

    @algorythmics said:

    The definition of corruption certainly supports it's use in this context, and I would have thought corruption in private entities is still something very much cared about by its board members and/or shareholders, who are those making the most noise in this case.

    The difference is, if the shareholders thought there's nothing wrong with CEO taking a little cut for himself... there would be nothing wrong. Because it's a privately owned entity and private owner can do whatever they want with their property.

    Dunno, the idea of corruption in my mind just feels tied with some kind of public function or office. And while FIFA certainly likes to pretend it's representing countries, that's definitely not the case (or at least it shouldn't be).



  • @algorythmics said:

    smaller federations (like UEFA)

    with the understanding that it is not the UEFA who votes but the individual national football associations, e.g. Belgian has a vote, Germany has a vote, Russia has a vote.


  • SockDev

    A united UEFA though could swing the vote quite a lot



  • @blakeyrat said:

    which show that their decision to have the World Cup has cost about 4,000 lives so far. People are literally dying.

    FYI: article has been correctedupdated to point out that the 4000 includes all migrant worker deaths since 2010*. Possible that includes non-work related deaths, too.

    Doesn't mean FIFA, playing World Cup in Qatar, or Qatar's labor policies aren't :wtf:

    *2010 - announcement of award of 2020 World Cup to Qatar

    ... But I do suspect the columnist is a twit with an axe to grind who can't be bothered to do his job before he fires off a column. Giving numbers to journalists is like giving matches to small children


  • @Luhmann said:

    the individual national football associations

    Are they "organizing bodies" for the sport of futbol in their countries?

    That is: in the US, the major hand-egg association, the NFL, is private* and independent, but USA Track & Field is the governing body for Athletics and both runs/promotes meets and represents the local sport to IAAF and to the US Olympic committee

    *(for some definitions of private, ymmv ;) )




  • Filed under: "No, discourse. I have three different things going on here. Shut up."

    Altho, I was just thinking to myself - "Self, why do you have three posts about soccer of all things."



  • @RaceProUK said:

    united UEFA

    UEFA includes Russia


  • SockDev

    …OK, a united UEFA (except Russia)



  • @PleegWat said:

    Still weird for the US to take action against a sports organization which is mainly popular in Europe and South America.

    Probably because we're not little scared Euro-weenies sobbing in a closet. Oh no! Sepp Blatter is going to hurt us! Please help us you brave Americans!!!



  • @cartman82 said:

    I can see their heads being arrested for fraud or bribery.

    Both of those are corruption.

    Are you going for some kind of weird "look how much of a pedantic dickweed I can be" joke? Because it doesn't even make sense.



  • @KillaCoder said:

    When ye act more like the "World Police" from the movie and blow shit up, that's a little less welcome

    Hey PRO-TIP: if you Euro-weenies would go in to take care of the problem first, you'd be able to take care of it however you like.

    If you sit on your bony European asses until the US gets involved, then expect the US to solve it how we like.





  • @blakeyrat said:

    Both of those are corruption.

    Are you going for some kind of weird "look how much of a pedantic dickweed I can be" joke? Because it doesn't even make sense.

    No joke.

    I just don't like how sport is always treated as something larger than the simple entertainment it is. These guys are running a company that organizes shows and rakes profit from ticket sales and TV rights. They are not "elected officials", or part of the government, that would be subject to corruption.

    They like to present themselves as such, but they are not. Or at least shouldn't be.



  • @cartman82 said:

    They are not "elected officials", or part of the government, that would be subject to corruption.

    Wait what? Do you think only government officials can accept bribes? Or engage in fraud? WTF.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    Hey PRO-TIP: if you Euro-weenies would go in to take care of the problem first, you'd be able to take care of it however you like.

    If you sit on your bony European asses until the US gets involved, then expect the US to solve it how we like.

    FIFA guys are big fish in Europe, but bribery was obviously neglected in USA.

    Once you arrest corrupt American Football or NBA officials then we can talk. Or how about deal with the rampart congresscreature bribery... oops, I mean "lobbying" going on?

    Didn't think so.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    Wait what? Do you think only government officials can accept bribes? Or engage in fraud? WTF.

    I just don't like the word "corruption" applied in a private company context. It feels different when the person in charge is answerable to company owners, instead to some kind electorate.



  • @cartman82 said:

    Once you arrest corrupt American Football or NBA officials then we can talk.

    We do. Most recently, the investigations in 2005 on doping in Major League Baseball. (Although I think in that case there were no arrests.)

    @cartman82 said:

    Or how about deal with the rampart congresscreature bribery... oops, I mean "lobbying" going on?

    That's not currently illegal. (I mean, if the lobbyist isn't careful, they can easily venture into "illegal", but 99% of lobbying currently going on is not illegal.)

    @cartman82 said:

    I just don't like the word "corruption" applied in a private company context. It feels different when the person in charge is answerable to company owners, instead to some kind electorate.

    Well I hate to break this to you, but the language isn't defined by your personal opinion.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    We do. Most recently, the investigations in 2005 on doping in Major League Baseball. (Although I think in that case there were no arrests.)

    Well there should have been.

    @blakeyrat said:

    That's not currently illegal. (I mean, if the lobbyist isn't careful, they can easily venture into "illegal", but 99% of lobbying currently going on is not illegal.)

    Well it should be.

    @blakeyrat said:

    Well I hate to break this to you, but the language isn't defined by your personal opinion.

    Well it should be.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    Hey PRO-TIP: if you Euro-weenies would go in to take care of the problem first, you'd be able to take care of it however you like.

    The "problems" you guys attempt to solve with bullets and bombs? We wouldn't consider them "problems" at all, I would think. Maybe Britain would.

    @blakeyrat said:

    If you sit on your bony European asses until the US gets involved, then expect the US to solve it how we like.

    Sure, just don't act surprised when 9/11-2 happens.



  • @KillaCoder said:

    The "problems" you guys attempt to solve with bullets and bombs? We wouldn't consider them "problems" at all, I would think.

    Really? You don't consider, for example, ISIS' activities in the Middle East a problem? They just sweep into a town, sell all the women into sex slavery, then murder all the men? No problem-o! We're Europe! Fuck human rights!



  • ISIS coalesced out of anti-Assad Syrian rebel groups, whom you guys supported, the remnants of Saddam's army, which you guys disbanded, and the oppressed Sunni minority in Iraq, whose oppressors (Shia government and militias) you guys set up. I would agree they are a problem, but one that wouldn't exist without you guys' initial crazy schemes.

    "We're Europe! Fuck human rights!" - as if bombing the Middle East for the 7 billionth time will improve anyones rights?



  • Well the "do absolutely nothing at all times forever" European strategy doesn't seem superior to my eyes.



  • @KillaCoder said:

    Maybe Britain would.

    Gives us something to moan about, natch.



  • @algorythmics said:

    Putin obviously came out and said the US should have stayed out of it, because he's Russian and that's how heRussia rolls.

    FTFY



  • @cartman82 said:

    Or how about deal with the rampart congresscreature bribery... oops, I mean "lobbying" going on?

    In short, STFU.



  • @cartman82 said:

    Well it should be.

    Fuck no. That stuff is the whole point of the 1st Amendment.

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

    Fuck all you guys who want to fuck over free speech.



  • @KillaCoder said:

    The "problems" you guys attempt to solve with bullets and bombs? We wouldn't consider them "problems" at all, I would think.

    I guess this is a big part of why you guys are useless.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    Well the "do absolutely nothing at all times forever" European strategy doesn't seem superior to my eyes.

    Doing nothing is better then bombing and killing for no reason, I think. We're secure enough from outside threats, we have UK and French (lol) nukes to deter Russia or whoever, and we are basically quite happy with the whole "peaceful prosperity" thing we got going on.

    The natural reaction when seeing awful things is to demand "something must be done!" But that "something" has to logically improve the situation. If it just makes things worse, it shouldn't be done. If it was possible to fire a missile through some dictators window and have an overnight improvement in democracy, freedom, and human rights, I'd be all for it.

    But knocking out dictators like the Taliban, Saddam, Gaddafi and Assad (not dead but lost control of most of his country) doesn't lead to that though, it just leads to chaos where the strongest, craziest and most brutal people try and seize power and resources. Scores are settled, vengeance is unleashed. More people have died since those countries were "freed" by America then in the previous multiple decades of dictator rule.

    Unfortunately, I think the Middle East simply needs to suffer through it's own version of Europe's centuries of religious wars, genocides, and hatred before they emerge out the other side into democracy, on their own terms.



  • @boomzilla said:

    I guess this is a big part of why you guys are useless.

    I'm glad we're useless at that. We were very "useful" at invading and killing for hundreds (thousands?) of years.I'm delighted that's over, for the most part. (Britain and France still have the post colonial itchies from time to time, it seems)



  • Whats with all these people changing things from something to the same thing spelled differently?



  • @KillaCoder said:

    We were very "useful" at invading and killing for hundreds (thousands?) of years.I'm delighted that's over, for the most part.

    For very different reasons. Your inability to understand that furthers my understanding.



  • @KillaCoder said:

    Unfortunately, I think the Middle East simply needs to suffer through it's own version of Europe's centuries of religious wars, genocides, and hatred before they emerge out the other side into democracy, on their own terms.

    What, the millenia so far haven't been enough?



  • @KillaCoder said:

    Unfortunately, I think the Middle East simply needs to suffer through it's own version of Europe's centuries of religious wars, genocides, and hatred before they emerge out the other side into democracy, on their own terms.

    And you're obviously willing to let that shit spill over into other parts of the world so you can keep your hands clean. I'm not saying that there shouldn't be limits, but I'm not impressed with this sort of sophistry, either.



  • @KillaCoder said:

    we have UK and French (lol) nukes

    We gave our nuke arsenal to elitist tea-sippers and chronic flag wavers?

    Christ, we're fucked.



  • @boomzilla said:

    For very different reasons. Your inability to understand that furthers my understanding.

    Yeah I actually don't understand this sentence. Mind explaining?

    @Magus said:

    What, the millenia so far haven't been enough?

    Apparently not.

    @boomzilla said:

    And you're obviously willing to let that shit spill over into other parts of the world so you can keep your hands clean. I'm not saying that there shouldn't be limits, but I'm not impressed with this sort of sophistry, either.

    I just fail to see how Westerners interfering in a Muslim civil war across the entire Middle East can help in any way? Apologies for the absurd image, but would an army of 100,000 Hindu soldiers have been able to stop the Catholic vs Protestant wars of Europe? Or would they have just made everything crazier and more chaotic? I don't see what we could do except defend our own lands, those of our friends and allies, and accept as many refugees as possible. "Keeping our hands clean" isn't the concern so much as "what good will getting them dirty do?"

    @Maciejasjmj said:

    We gave our nuke arsenal to elitist tea-sippers and chronic flag wavers?

    Christ, we're fucked.


    Eh, they still have descendants of Napoleon knocking around. They'll be fine :P



  • @boomzilla said:

    In short, STFU.

    @boomzilla said:
    Fuck all you guys who want to fuck over free speech.

    We see that you feel strongly about this. Our conglomerate could use a smart vigorous defender of freedom such as yourself in our corner. Taking advantage of our right to Free Speech, let us pour a whole bunch of Likes into your coffers. Keep up the good work, and more Likes will be forthcoming. And, you know, if you ever get tired of this whole public forum business, there's a cushy "consultant" gig waiting for you. Just as long as you keep championing our interest- *akhm* we mean following your true beliefs that happen to coincide with our interests *wink* *wink* .



  • @KillaCoder said:

    Eh, they still have descendants of Napoleon knocking around.

    Haven't we stuck them all in asylums already?



  • Right, because the US has never watched the other way when other countries/corporations/themselves do bad things.

    I wouldn't mind "world police", but this more like "world police that acts entirely in their self-interest, occasionally beating some bad guy up just to steal their things".



  • @Maciejasjmj said:

    Haven't we stuck them all in asylums already?

    Close enough:

    "Jean-Christophe [the current Prince Napoleon] has worked and lived in New York City as an investment banking analyst for Morgan Stanley and in London as a private equity associate for Advent International."



  • @blakeyrat said:

    Really? You don't consider, for example, ISIS' activities in the Middle East a problem? They just sweep into a town, sell all the women into sex slavery, then murder all the men? No problem-o! We're Europe! Fuck human rights!

    Oh do we finally care about people in other countries? Can I expect a coordinated action to overthrow most African dictators, institute a global socialistic system where the richest countries spend >30% of their GDP to rebuild the poorest ones and educate their people?


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