I can glue jQuery together, I don't need to know FizzBuzz!



  • UX girl applies for a frontend developer job. Fails FizzBuzz. Then writes a long rant about how unfair it is she's expected to be able to code for a frontend developer job.

    A few notable snippets.

    Interviewer: Ok, well, you have to write a program where multiples of three print 'Fizz' instead of the number and for the multiples of five print 'Buzz'. For numbers which are multiples of both three and five print 'FizzBuzz'. So it would look like '1, 2, Fizz, 4, Buzz, Fizz, 7, 8, Fizz, Buzz, 11, Fizz, 13, 14, Fizz Buzz'

    Me: (OMG MATH. I tried to talk through it a bit, but then said:)

    Me: Ok, again to be honest, my JS knowledge is more regarding UI/UX based tasks. And I don't really understand the point of the question. Like, what's the use case? When would this come up in the role?


    (listing requirements from the job add)

    • HTML5, CSS3, JavaScript.

    I'm a master at the first two, but since there was no mention of programming stuff and the responsibilities section was so design-centric, I figured my jQuery proficiency and capacity to self-teach would suffice.


    ###Preferred qualifications

    • Experienced with Object Oriented JavaScript and modern JavaScript libraries such as Ember, Backbone, or Angular.

    I've played around with these and understand the concepts. I wouldn't say I'm proficient, but I definitely have 'experience with'. Sure, this could be a lack in my qualifications for the position but again, the verbiage in the sections above is way more oriented around design and prototyping skills.


    "I know how to glue tables together, even set all the colors attributes and everything, but they won't give me a frontend designer job. HOW UNFAIR!"



  • OMG, I missed the comments. They are the best!

    This post is near and dear to me and all to similar to many “interviews” I’ve been on. The whole fixbuzz thing is a huge joke. I have never used the or heard of PHP’s modulous operator before or since I failed the fizzbuzz test.

    I’m also learning that if you have mastered all the skills listed in the description then why would you be interested in their company? You’d be at Google or something.

    Hahahahaha!

    As to why a hiring manager is asking about fizz/buzz. ??????? No clue. When I was a hiring manager, I asked applicants solve a few common problems, but always something directly related to the work they would be expected to do.

    I mean – I would be suspicious of someone who could solve fizzbuzz off the cuff. They are likely to:

    1. have too much time on their hands
    2. had too many interviews asking that question
    3. be unsufferably arrogant
    4. or all of the above.

    HAHAHAHAHA!

    This is going on a t-shirt.

    FizzBuzz does have its place, but definitely not for the average web developer. If they wanted someone who did serious backend engineering, then it would be a decent way to see how someone steps through logic, but very few web dev jobs really need anyone who does that.

    "Serious backend engineering"

    FizzBuzz is not a joke!

    I would have walked off immediately and not looked back.

    BTW – I’m a physics/math grad and unless you’ve taken some abstract algebra recently, you will be totally loss.

    "Abstract algebra"


  • BINNED

    Excuse me, there's a supply of cyanide I need to get rid of by ingesting it. BRB.

    ...

    What? That was a lame joke and not something insightful? What the fuck is there to say? Original article? Fine, whatever. So many comments supporting the guy? Fuck me.

    This is the old contention we have around here: should people learn and know at least the basics of something like C so they understand at least something about the shit they are doing, or should we just abstract everything from the beginning and never show a pointer to a single person ever again?

    This is the same argument. This time, the claim is you don't need to understand maths.



  • @cartman82 said:

    have too much time on their hands

    THAT WAS ME FOR A DAY! And I can solve FizzBuzz.


  • SockDev

    @cartman82 said:

    too much time on their hands

    Can't imagine being like that…
    <.<
    >.>
    <.<
    >.>
    *scuttles off before anyone can say something*


  • SockDev

    @cartman82 said:

    have too much time on their hands

    /me whistles innocently



  • @Onyx said:

    This is the old contention we have around here: should people learn and know at least the basics of something like C so they understand at least something about the shit they are doing, or should we just abstract everything from the beginning and never show a pointer to a single person ever again?

    This is the same argument. This time, the claim is you don't need to understand maths.

    It's ok for a designer not to know fizzbuzz. But if you're gonna call yourself programmer, then better be able to program something, which is what fizzbuzz is there to demonstrate.

    It's ironic she (the author is a woman, I missed that the first time around) posted some jQuery code in the comments, to prove she can code.

    var lara = {
            isSleepy: true,
            likesHTML: true,
            canUseJQuery: true
        };
    
    $('.comment-author').each( function() {
        var isPedro = $(this).is(':contains("Pedro")');
        if( lara.canUseJQuery && isPedro ) {    
            $(this).parent()
                    .next('.comment-content')
                    .html("I bet you know some jQuery, Lara!");
            }
    });
    

    So she understands the basics. The problem is, in this day and age, this sort of "coding" just isn't enough anymore for top-level frontend code. Look at frameworks like angular, ember or react. Slinging jQuery around to mess with the DOM directly won't help her there.

    She needs to invest some time and become a real developer (probably won't take much effort for her), or slide back into the design role. The time of an html/css oriented "frontend developer" is ending.



  • Feel free to contradict me, but can we agree that there isn't such a thing as a B.S. in Design?

    Most design seems like BS to me.

    There is at least one wise commenter:

    JavaScript is gross. Math isn’t.

    OK, there are quite a few commenters calling her out. It's interesting to see people get outside their comfort zone into stuff they're really ignorant about. We all have that, and I can understand the rant. Hopefully some of the responses will clue her in a little bit.


  • I survived the hour long Uno hand

    Fuck. Apparently Designers are like QA people. Everything is depressing today.

    "I test software day in and day out. What? Learn enough Python to script a simple test case? Oh no, that's way too complicated for my little testing brain, I can only use GUI tools to record and playback."


  • SockDev

    hell, even developers are like that.... which is rather more depressing if you ask me.


  • BINNED

    @cartman82 said:

    It's ok for a designer not to know fizzbuzz. But if you're gonna call yourself programmer, then better be able to program something, which is what fizzbuzz is there to demonstrate.

    @cartman82 said:

    The problem is, in this day and age, this sort of "coding" just isn't enough anymore for top-level frontend code. Look at frameworks like angular, ember or react. Slinging jQuery around to mess with the DOM directly won't help her there.

    These two together, pretty much. I mean, hello Ember, fancy seeing you run Discourse. What is that? It's slow? Bottlenecks need to be located and either fixed or reported upstream? Well, sure, let's get people who don't know how to solve FizzBuzz right on that!

    If you're just shuffling elements around the page, fine, I guess. If the job description asks of you to use Ember or Angular or whatever you better have at least a hint of a fucking clue, otherwise you'll either just fail or, worse, make something that works by the sheer power of SO copy/paste.


  • I survived the hour long Uno hand

    It seems so fucking simple. Want to remain non-technical? Don't apply for jobs asking for javascript. What's that, they pay less money? THEN FUCKING LEARN SOMETHING NEW. jesus fucking christ.



  • You fucking MORON.

    You applied for the job. You knew what the requirements are. You didn't even fucking bother to fucking Google for some mother-ass-fucking sample interview questions. You fucking lied to your interviewer by claiming you "know Javascript", because you're one of those SO asshats that make the "how do I 2+2 in jQuery" posts and string the answer code together, when you couldn't program your way out of a fucking bucket. And then you go the internet and go "waaah, that's not fair, I went to an interview and got asked a hard question!"

    Well guess what, if you can't even make a simple motherfucking for loop in Javascript, you're a completely worthless frontend dev. Unless the 90s call and ask for their fucking static HTML4 webpages back.

    Fuck.



  • Oh Jesus, and then she goes ahead and lectures hiring managers on how to conduct interviews. Well guess what bitch, they conduct the interviews the way they do so that they don't end up with the likes of you.

    f I saw that I would be expected to sanitize data with pure JavaScript, I wouldn't have bothered.

    WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOUR WEBPAGES DOING THEN IF NOT PROCESSING DATA?! Or do you want a round-trip to the server every time an user moves a cursor to do shit you could easily do client-side if you had two brain cells to rub?



  • @duggi said:

    @Coz Baldwin said:
    Oh man. This has been my life, to the “T”, for the last 5 years. It’s something I’ve just gotten used to, for the most part...

    wait – after 5 years, you still haven’t figured out why the same things are happening to you again and again?

    :laughing:



  • Blakeyrat's nicer brother:
    @Matt said:

    Come on. There is no way you believe this (or you’re lying about your experience).



  • Sounds like another company that expects a web programmer with 15 years of experience and wants them to work for $22k a year.

    15 years of experience. To solve fucking FizzBuzz.

    Holy shit, I should apply for senior.


  • SockDev

    In no particular order


    Umm, PHP and Ruby are not front-end languages

    Can't speak for Ruby, but what is PHP if not a front-end language?

    Also, listing SCSS and CSS as required skills is suspicious

    As suspicious as listing jQuery and Angular

    You will be the entire company

    So you just ignored the word 'collaborate' then?

    So, where does FizzBuzz play into this? Sure, "engineer" is in the job title, but so is "designer", "UX", and "Interaction". To me, that definitely doesn't indicate a programming job.

    'Engineer' doesn't imply 'programming' in the same way 'pushing accelerator' doesn't imply 'go faster'

    Hopefully you get my point.

    That you're a self-important arse? Yes, I got that.

    What do you want, exact version numbers?

    I smell someone listing buzzwords

    If SCSS and CSS are buzzwords, then so is C++

    OMG MATH

    Of the type you've been doing since age 6

    Face it sister, you ain't got a fucking clue.


  • BINNED

    Make it a one-liner and you're a senior architect.


  • I survived the hour long Uno hand

    @RaceProUK said:

    what is PHP if not a front-end language?

    So there's two competing theories on what "front-end" means: it could be the client in the web-based client-server architecture, with the back-end being the server, or it could be the code that constructs the gui, with the back-end being non-user-facing code like service APIs. She clearly falls in the former camp, while the advert ends up in the latter. Which is why it's good they listed what they meant by "front-end".



  • @RaceProUK said:

    what is PHP if not a front-end language?

    An abomination?

    Nowadays it's as back-end as C# in ASP.NET, really. Nobody sane does PHP-as-templating-language anymore.



  • @Yamikuronue said:

    She clearly falls in the former camp

    The OP? She falls totally out of the whole clasification. Javascript is the client in the client-server architecture. She can't do Javascript. She can't do anything back-end either, but that's a moot point.


  • kills Dumbledore

    @Maciejasjmj said:

    Nobody sane does PHP-as-templating-language anymore.

    BTFY


  • BINNED

    @RaceProUK said:

    what is PHP if not a front-end language

    An overly elaborate abstractioncomplication layer around echo json_encode($stuff). At least in my case.


  • I survived the hour long Uno hand

    The exact complaint at that point was that Ruby is not a "front-end" language, not JS. Unless Chrome can do Ruby now?



  • @Yamikuronue said:

    The exact complaint at that point was that Ruby is not a "front-end" language, not JS.

    Yeah, but she was applying as a front-end developer despite not knowing JS. So I don't know (or care) what front-end is to her, but apparently not JS either.


  • I survived the hour long Uno hand

    Yeah. She thought she knew JS, so she thought she was a front-end developer, but she doesn't, so she's not, even by her own standards



  • @cartman82 said:

    some jQuery code

    /me looks at the code. If she can do that, she could just as easily implement FizzBuzz in JQuery.

    :see_no_evil: :hear_no_evil: :speak_no_evil:



  • @Onyx said:

    So many comments supporting the guy? Fuck me.

    It's a girl. If you don't support her, you are a sexist pig.
    Totally like me, bwahahaha!



  • @Mikael_Svahnberg said:

    If she can do that, she could just as easily implement FizzBuzz in JQuery.

    She can glue some SO answers, without understanding what they really mean. She seems to have some grasp of CSS, and that's about all there is in this snippet - somewhat enhanced CSS.

    What pisses me off is just how many Laras are out there in the wild. It's as if I grabbed a stack of books, started picking sentences, changed the character names to Alice and Bob and called the result a novel. It might be grammatically correct, and if my stack of books is big enough it might even convey the plot I wanted it to - but if I want to include a scene that's in none of them, I'm completely out of luck, because I have no idea how to write.

    And yet, companies still fail to do even as basic tests as FizzBuzz and people who bullshit their way through the interview still get hired.



  • @Maciejasjmj said:

    Holy shit, I should apply for senior.

    You should. It's fun.



  • I often go to SO for an answer. Saves me time.

    The difference is, when an answer works and I have no idea why it works in the first place, I work my ass off to study it thoroughly after the fact.


  • BINNED

    @wft said:

    It's a girl. If you don't support her, you are a sexist pig.Totally like me, bwahahaha!

    Pretty sure it said "guy" in OP originally which was since corrected. I was too lazy to do the same.



  • @wft said:

    The difference is, when an answer works and I have no idea why it works in the first place, I work my ass off to study it thoroughly after the fact.

    My daughter is taking algebra, and they've recently started doing polynomial division and factorization. I told her that at first, just remember the rules your teacher (or book, or me or whatever) tells you and simply follow them. After you do enough problems it will start to sink in and the rule will make sense.

    Until then, just follow the rules, especially when you come to something slightly different. It's amazing how people will stop when something changes and not try to apply what they already know (we all do it to some degree).



  • Aren't you going against the idea of Common Core then? :trollface:



  • Yes? Aren't we all against common core? It's my understanding that's what the "common" part means.

    AFAICT, that particular lunacy hasn't infected her algebra stuff. And my son's stuff doesn't seem crazy yet, so maybe it hasn't made it here yet. Nope, not yet:

    :smile:



  • @boomzilla said:

    My daughter is taking algebra, and they've recently started doing polynomial division and factorization. I told her that at first, just remember the rules your teacher (or book, or me or whatever) tells you and simply follow them. After you do enough problems it will start to sink in and the rule will make sense.

    :rofl: did she listen to you?


    Filed under: Yes I have daughter around the same age, why?



  • @ijij said:

    did she listen to you?

    Yes, but it's too soon to tell if she's actually doing what I told her to do.



  • @boomzilla said:

    Nope, not yet:

    Wow. We had it shoved down everybody's throat before the ink was dried on the title pages.

    Even the people at the schools stared hard and said "Really? New standards in July? Sure, that will work."


    Filed under: Yes Blue State County



  • @ijij said:

    Wow. We had it shoved down everybody's throat before the ink was dried on the title pages.

    We're a little more...skeptical...of the Feds pushing us around. At least, that's where the balance of power sits in Richmond. I imagine plenty of the locals would love to eat that crap sandwich.



  • We had a brand new ambitious young dude come in right at the same time - I'm sure he sees his stars aligned with jumping on the Federal bandwagon.

    The fun part was actually seeing the teachers admit out loud that they were really annoyed at the extra work to implement the new diktat but that it didn't really matter that much for our schools - this was just another a new curriculum and they had seen curricula come and go and your kids will be just fine and we'll make sure they learn no matter what.

    No directly related to Common Core: Daughter's bio teacher said, in so many words, we're ignoring the State proficiency test and just going ahead and teaching biology - your kids are all smart and will pass it anyways.



  • @cartman82 said:

    UX girl applies for a frontend developer job.

    Did we read the same post? It says she applied for a "UX Engineer/Interaction Designer" job, not developer. A designer designs, they don't really have to know anything about programming, and the job specification does not strictly specify that either.

    That being said, yeah, every programmer should be able to do FizzBuzz, it's extremely simple mathematics. And I'd expect most people who work in related fields (like UX design) to be able to do so too, but I wouldn't require it.


  • SockDev

    @anonymous234 said:

    It says she applied for a "UX Engineer/Interaction Designer" job, not developer.

    Does 'Engineer' not imply development? :stuck_out_tongue:



  • @anonymous234 said:

    Did we read the same post? It says she applied for a "UX Engineer/Interaction Designer" job, not developer. A designer designs, they don't really have to know anything about programming, and the job specification does not strictly specify that either.

    Job name is anonymized, probably in her favor. If you look at the skills list, it obviously has a lot of javascript requirements.



  • @RaceProUK said:

    Does 'Engineer' not imply development? :stuck_out_tongue:

    ...no? I don't know. Engineer is just a word you stick at the end of every job description today. But it doesn't particularly scream "code" to me.



  • Interviewer: Ok, well, you have to write a program where multiples of three print 'Fizz' instead of the number and for the multiples of five print 'Buzz'. For numbers which are multiples of both three and five print 'FizzBuzz'. So it would look like '1, 2, Fizz, 4, Buzz, Fizz, 7, 8, Fizz, Buzz, 11, Fizz, 13, 14, Fizz Buzz'

    One can only assume who's responsible for the graphic.



  • It's fun to watch you writing post LIVE.



  • @cartman82 said:

    If you look at the skills list, it obviously has a lot of javascript requirements.

    ...did we read the same post?

    ###Responsibilities

    • Create low and high-fidelity mockups to effectively convey interaction and design ideas (e.g. wireframes, sketches, 'pixel-perfect' mockups, etc).
    • Deliver engaging, innovative prototypes, and contribute to front-end development of our products.
    • Collaborate with and synthesize feedback from other members of the team.
    • Evaluate the usability of new and existing products, apply user research findings, and make constructive suggestions for improvements.

    ###Minimum qualifications

    • B.S. degree in Design, Computer Science or related technical field or comparable practical experience.
    • 2 or more years of designing clean, valid, and compatible websites and applications.
    • Knowledge of Adobe Photoshop and Illustrator.
    • Clean and elegant visual design aesthetic.
      [...]
    • Passionate about creating responsive and delightful interfaces and experiences.

    Up until here it's quite obviously a purely designer job to me.

    • HTML5, CSS3, JavaScript.

    This is the only one that mentions JavaScript. She acknowledges she knows nothing but jQuery.

    So, requirements mentioning javascript: 1 out of 10.

    And the preferred qualifications

    • Experienced with Object Oriented JavaScript and modern JavaScript libraries such as Ember, Backbone, or Angular.

    I admit this one is about programming, but it's in "preferred", not "required".

    EDIT: OK, I stopped reading after that. The rest of the rant does mention development jobs. But the main part is not about that.



  • @cartman82 said:

    I’m also learning that if you have mastered all the skills listed in the description then why would you be interested in their company? You’d be at Google or something.

    @cartman82 said:

    Hahahahaha!

    Given the quality of Google UIs, that's probably 100% true.



  • @RaceProUK said:

    Can't speak for Ruby, but what is PHP if not a front-end language?

    Where I work, we use "front-end" to mean "in the browser".

    I could see the argument that PHP is a front-end language, though. But by that logic so is ASP.NET WebForms, which is a harder case...

    EDIT: BTW after reading the job description, I kind of agree with her. It was misleading. But, you know, cope and move on-- I took a job with a misleading description and I had to suffer for like 4 months in it before I could detach myself. It happens.


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