You merely adopted the 500. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see a fully rendered Discourse page until I was already a man
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I'll just crosspost this, because I should have just posted here to begin with:
http://what.thedailywtf.com/t/the-constant-500-status-thread/1673/16531?u=onyx
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I am seriously going to run some queries tomorrow on the test database dump I have. Will probably have to generate some mock posts, too, to have a big enough dataset.
At least that whole "no foreign keys" thing is going to help with something...
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@apapadimoulis said:
So if you want modern software, it's gonna be built in on Ruby and run on Linux.
Really? I work on modern software (granted, it isn't forum software) and I use .NET.
@arantor works on what I assume is relatively modern software in PHP.
At work, we are adopting a new collaboration platform to help us work with an overseas team. It's written in Python.
So what was that about Ruby?
But Ruby is teh kewlest, sooooo much better than all that lame-ass old stuff!
My opinion is up-thread…
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Yup, the software didn't even exist 3 years ago.
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http://blog.codinghorror.com/why-ruby/
Still not un-cool enough to actually work properly out of the box…
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I'm collaborating on a Node thing. Am I cool now?
Damn it, I can't be cool! It goes against my character! Can someone make Node un-cool now?
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I just realized something (yes, I'm slow):
The status thread is now at 16k posts (actually, sam mentioned 16k yesterday now that I think about it, I was just too tired to make the connection).
Meaning we have a legitimate thread that's more than a quarter way to catching up to T-1000. Meaning us breaking the forum legitimately (due to actual user traffic, not bots or botched monitoring sites) is inevitable. Unless we cave in and start opening new thread every time we reach some kind of "unsafe" limit.
Fuck.
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Status isn't really super-legitimate, though.
The Bad Ideas Thread is still going at 6k+/9k+, though.
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You mean because we off-topic a lot? That's just what happens here.
I'd call it legitimate. People come there to share something cool, or their grievances, to their ideas. Sometimes if prods a discussion, sometimes it spins off into new threads.
I like the status thread. I don't see it as abuse. It's just a general chat area we can use without opening a new thread for every "this thing just pissed me off / made me smile / confused me" event people might want to share. That's legitimate enough for me, at least.
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It's just a general chat area we can use
Not what forum topics are for.
This is me just being the CoCDCKs advocate, though.
I personally like the status thread.
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Not what forum topics are for.
And yet, it's a thing I saw happen on nearly every toxic hellstew forum of yesteryear with a laid-back enough community (read: the mods didn't have a stick up their behinds) I used to visit.
Then again, I expect someone that helped create SO understand that...
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Status isn't really super-legitimate, though
I'd call it legitimate because it was not created to push the forum to it's limits (unlike the like topic).
I think this has been said a lot already but there are a lot of forums that offer a "game"-area, where topics consist of people trying to count or other random forum games. We don't have those. All we have are off topic discussions.
Now let's turn this around and say everybody opened a new topic for every side discussion. That would flood the category page with > 10 topics every / hour. Not only could people just ignore one topic they don't care about anymore, they would see a lot of stuff two times or three times because a general topic is created again due to other circumstances.
Filed Under: TL;DR: I don't think we are too unreasonable, here... just different
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It's ridiculous to say anything in IT is cool, specially a PL. Like saying accounting theory is cool. Or the strings theory is cool.
Bunch of sociopaths.
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Now let's turn this around and say everybody opened a new topic for every
side discussionreply. That would flood the category page with > 10 topics every /hourminute.DIWTFY.
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So, the bit we all ignored so far in the discussion... What now?
Obviously, servercooties.com has been changed not to poll
/t/1000.Most of the bots are still off. We should probably either keep them that way or ban them from
/t/1000for now.Also, this is obviously a serious bug in Discourse. Is it in
the bug trackeron meta.d? We should make sure it is, despite our conversations with @sam here.We can provide a decent test framework now - we can generate a huge amount of "legitimate" posts using bots and stress test any potential fixes the same way. Do we want to try and get something set up for that so we can have this shit fixed ASAP?
I don't want to wait until regular user interaction starts bringing the whole damned thing down, which I consider likely. Bots / servercooties.com just brought the problem out sooner - this is sure to bite us on the ass sooner or later, bots or no bots.
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Then again, I expect someone that helped create SO understand that...
Voted Off Topic, Closed, ZOMG HOW DARE YOU GO OFF TOPIC OR BE SUBJECTIVE.
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We are loading in small chunks but there is a query that selects every post id in the stream and passes to the client, this strategy is not scaling for a 16k post topic, we need to fix it
Has it always done this?
I'm not sure the increase in post count over the last few weeks is big enough even doing that to explain the performance degradation in the last few days.
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I'm not sure the increase in post count over the last few weeks is big enough even doing that to explain the performance degradation in the last few days.
Yesterday seems to be the consequence of "hey, let's monitor /t/1000 for performance, WHAT COULD POSSIBLY GO WRONG?".
The last few days... We did get a new beta recently-ish? There was a bit more activity in /t/1000, maybe enough to agitate the bots, but I don't think it's the only reason: I'm pretty sure the site has been sluggish longer than that.
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We did get a new beta recently-ish?
Yes.
There was a bit more activity in /t/1000, maybe enough to agitate the bots
The push to 40k was after Friday's main batch of cooties.
Yesterday seems to be the consequence of "hey, let's monitor /t/1000 for performance, WHAT COULD POSSIBLY GO WRONG?".
It was going to shit before then - wasn't that why it was added?
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@Onyx said:
Yesterday seems to be the consequence of "hey, let's monitor /t/1000 for performance, WHAT COULD POSSIBLY GO WRONG?".
It was going to shit before then - wasn't that why it was added?
Yes.And it made things worse.
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@loopback0 said:
It was going to shit before then - wasn't that why it was added?
Yes.And it made things worse.
Yes, I'm just saying that while it didn't improve the situation, it's clearly not the cause.
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Well, we did post in /t/1000 more.
Now, I'm not sure what bots do when autoliking. Do they trigger some kind of refresh after doing that?
There's obviously multiple factors at work here. But Discourse handling long topics poorly seems to be the main cause. Solving that problem should make any other anomalies stand out more. Right now everything else is just dwarfed by Discourse chewing through 40+k post IDs every time someone farts in /t/1000's general direction.
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Do they trigger some kind of refresh after doing that?
I suspect they do to see when new posts come in.
There's obviously multiple factors at work here.
Yeah - whatever testing Dischorse does get, it's clearly not tested on forums with decent volumes of topics and topics with high post counts.
T-1000 is about high post and like counts, but all we're doing is uncovering defects that would ultimately hit other forums anyway given time.Is Jeff so blinkered and so confident everyone will use forums his way that he doesn't feel the need to test anything which doesn't fit his vision?
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Also, this is obviously a serious bug in Discourse. Is it in the bug tracker on meta.d? We should make sure it is, despite our conversations with @sam here.
Had a PM thread open with the staff at meta.d. Jeff's official stance is that they need to tune the query that gets run when generating a user.json, and we need to close/t/1000.I think Sam will work on fixing the post ID gathering query that's bringing down
/t/1000when he gets back from vacation, based on what he said here, since he probably thinks it could happen on an organic thread, but he's not officially tasked with it.
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Is Jeff so blinkered and so confident everyone will use forums his way that he doesn't feel the need to test anything which doesn't fit his vision?
Given all discussions we had concerning stats, nested quoting, reply indicators and such?
Probably.
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close
/t/1000
Which will do nothing to cure the actual issue.Also, good fucking luck with that…
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Jeff's official stance is [...] we need to close
/t/1000.Fat chance of that happening. It's found bugs and performance issues that any other Discourse forum could've ran into given enough time. Sure sounds like a topic they'd want to mimic to, you know, actually dogfood their forums better.
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Which will do nothing to cure the actual issue.
Unless it's being misquoted/misinterpreted and Atwood actually said/meant "purge".
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Jeff's official stance is that they need to tune the query that gets run when generating a user.json
Probably. Also, we still need a confirmation on whether that userscript of mine was at fault. I got some extra info from @aliceif whose profile was being accessed, it seems likely that I misunderstood something about Ember rendering model and / or it got changed since I wrote that script.
The problem is likely mitigated for now. That specific case is something I can kinda forgive: it was my stupid hack that possibly caused the issue. Tuning is still something that should be done, but is not a core problem at this point. Probably.
and we need to close
/t/1000.> My computer is slow!
> Oh, just delete C:\WINDOWSI think Sam will work on fixing the post ID gathering query that's bringing down
/t/1000Here's a fix: GET RID OF IT!
I know how to fucking avoid it. I'm not a DBA. I dabble. I know some shit about databases because nobody else was around to do that. So I spend some time reading about it. And I know what to do.
This is sad.
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Do they trigger some kind of refresh after doing that?
autoliking?
i can answer that
they long poll
/message-buslooking for activity in /t/1000. then they fire off a post to/post-actionsto like the post.binging and readify will cause topic loads.
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and we need to close /t/1000.
If he thinks his application can't support a certain of numbers of posts per topic with a reasonable performance he should put a hard limit in.
Him whining about it makes it even less likely of /t/1000 dying soon
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So what you're saying is:
- the auto-likers wouldn't have caused that problem because they never asked for the full list of Post IDs, and
- the binge-likers would have requested the full list, but we do not have a lot of bots doing that and they would've requested the list only one time at a specific time each day, meaning less hits of the full list than any one of us in a given day.
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the auto-likers wouldn't have caused that problem because they never asked for the full list of Post IDs, and
correct
the binge-likers would have requested the full list, but we do not have a lot of bots doing that and they would've requested the list only one time at a specific time each day, meaning less hits of the full list than any one of us in a given day.
correct, and the list would be only requested once per topic.
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Unless it's being misquoted/misinterpreted and Atwood actually said/meant "purge".
@Jeff,full:true said:We did identify a slow user page query that we want to fix. I do not support further growth of the "look how big we can make it" topic. Congratulations, you made it big. I suggest you close that topic.
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Someone should tell jeffwood that he should just fuck right off.
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Someone should tell jeffwood that he should just fuck right off.
Pretty sure he's been told that a few times here
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@codinghorror said:
We did identify a slow user page query that we want to fix.
And what about the retarded topic loading query?!
Even if His Holy Jeffiness doesn't support the idea of T-1000 - it's still uncovered a few issues with his product along the way and he damn well needs to fix them rather than just suggesting we close it or saying that he doesn't support it (Jeff speak for "We ain't fixing anything else this uncovers")..
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OK, so just closing it wouldn't have avoided the auto-close bug the Likes thread found, and he seems to not give a shit about making his platform better because the only communities that will use it like he intends it to be used are ones he runs.
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And what about the retarded topic loading query?!
Jeff does not want to fix it because it was generated by artificial traffic in an artificial topic; IMO he's viewing it through the lens of "those damn TDWTFers, tryin' to break my stuff!"Sam does want to fix it because it could come up in an organic "general discussion" topic, with organic traffic on a site with more Google Juice. IMO he's viewing it through the lens of "something bad happened, we can fix it; bad things shouldn't happen no matter what."@ChaosTheEternal said:
so just closing it wouldn't have avoided the auto-close bug the Likes thread found
Remember, users are by default limited to 5-10 likes per day; it's only here that we bumped the limit up to the 400 range. While we did discover the auto-close bug thanks to our Likes thread, it would be years before any other forum accrued enough likes to cause it. We only encountered it because we're running way outside what Jeff considers normal parameters. (Not defending, just explaining.)
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Jeff does not want to fix it because it was generated by artificial traffic in an artificial topic; IMO he's viewing it through the lens of "those damn TDWTFers, tryin' to break my stuff!"
It's retarded whether it's on a 100 post topic or on a 10000000000000 post topic. All we've done is uncover it faster.
IMO he's viewing it through the lens of "those damn TDWTFers, tryin' to break my stuff!"
As usual.Sam does want to fix it ... IMO he's viewing it through the lens of "something bad happened, we can fix it; bad things shouldn't happen no matter what."
Sam is much better at that than Jeff. Much less bothered how we broke something and more with how to fix it,
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Remember, users are by default limited to 5-10 likes per day
That's fucking retarded too, unless you have a really low volume forum.
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Does anyone have a large, non-discourse forum where they have access to load info? How big is the biggest "natural" topic, how big is the biggest gamified topic, how many posts per day, that kind of info? We're really not that big. It's still possible to read all the posts that are made every day, unlike some other forums I've visited.
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users are by default limited to 5-10 likes per day
I've read two threads since I got up and I've given out probably ten likes. We say a lot of good things.
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We only encountered it because we're running way outside what Jeff considers normal parameters
this got me thinking....
Let's assume for a second that we are not Jeffs target demographic (I know, it's really hard to think that but bear with me for a second here)
If that was the case the question would become: What IS his demographic. What does he think a forum should be.
if you ponder upon that for a few seconds you will notice a trend.
Does Jeff want many small posts or few large ones? Many Small posts!
Does Jeff want people to randomly like stuff? No, he wants to limit liking to some low value
Does Jeff believe going off topic is doing it wrong? Yes, he does.
Is cross linking a thing? Yes it is
Is deleting a topic possible? Not really!
Does it try to promote active users? Yes, trust levels are a thing!Many of these answers are not what normal forums are about. The small (wo)man wants to make a forum to have some fun. To play around, talk to like minded people, maybe even make some friends.
So. what kind of forums are ones that are pretty close to his vision?
The answer may suprise you:
Q&A like support forums. And this is not even because of his involvement in SO.
Think about it, really:
Most support cases are slightly different, so creating a new topic for each makes sense.
Likes would judge whether or not a solution was found or a problem was acknowledged.
Going off topic is not a good idea for support stuff (see blakeyrat on how Coding Help is supposed to work)
If a solution was found elsewhere, crosslinking is pretty handy.
You would never delete a topic because it could help other people could have the same problem later.
People who gather a lot of likes and post a lot are bound to be the ones who know the topic of the forum well and are therefor rewarded with greater power.Now here is the problem: As Alex mentioned before: this is the forum to a fun project he made years ago. Discourse is NOT made for these kinds of enviorments.
I am not even saying Discourse is the spawn of Satan, or that we should immediatly switch. I am just trying to say that Jeffs vision of how a Forum should be is actually how a subgenre of a forum should be.Maybe thats the only kind of forum he had been visiting before.
That would explain why he refuses to look at competitors. Because they don't fit in his subgenre of forums.I think he actually doesn't even promote Discourse as a forum but a discussion plattform. This might be what he believes these kinds of forums are.
So - in a way - we are DOING IT WRONG. But only because we treat this forum as a forum and not a place where we only come to ask for help (or help other people).
Filed Under: think about it... I believe this makes sense!
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There's been one posted here before which is Discourse, but has way more big topics than us. Except they get to 10k, close it, and start again.
Presumably because they also got told they were Doing It Wrong™.
ed by a discodev :(
Why Ruby?
