The "Everything Zenimax has Done Wrong with Morrowind" digest.



  • TRWTF is playing ESO in the first place. Notwithstanding the fact that it's not even a Bethesda joint, and the fact that it's a cash grab, it's still playing a subscription MMO in a post WOW world every single big profile MMO that has come out has failed spectacularly to deliver a good game.

    Morrowind was great at the time and provided incredible immersion with very limited tools. Oblivion shat on everything Morrowind did good and though Skyrim was far better than Oblivion, it devolved into a themepark fast travel fetch quest fest too quickly. It also helps that the TES lore is no longer masked by the veil of mystery that it had for me during the Morrowind days. I'm not surprised Bethesda whored out their top IP for such a shitty outsourced cashgrab.



  • @dstopia said:

    it's still playing a subscription MMO in a post WOW world every single big profile MMO that has come out has failed spectacularly to deliver a good game

    Well, the alternative is a very quickly put together craptacular F2P game, where everyone eventually complains about Pay 2 Win. Because to be honest, anything that offers an advantage is going to be P2W even if it's just an crafter's exp bonus potion.

    Sure, you have your occasional B2P that are good, like Guild Wars, but even with titles like Diablo people are like "3 is terrible, because I know what 2 was like".

    Honestly, it's mostly nostalgia, as I've played Morrowind, and when the quest description was outright wrong in where it told you to go (not wrong as in a riddle, but just wrong), that's more game breaking than fast travel.... which I can ignore.... very simply ignore.

    Don't like the quest pointers.... disable them. There's a mod for that.

    And if you're playing an Elder Scrolls on console.... well, I'm not going to apologize for that. Elder Scrolls on console is not a true Elder Scrolls, because you're missing out on the community which is 90% of the content.

    I like compromises. Like having quest markers show you general location, based upon how well they want to hide it.

    If you know someone is in a city, highlight the whole city, don't put a marker on their head.

    Hell, make words clickable in the quest description, and as you click them it narrows the field of the marker.

    But I do not like games that give me no indication at all of what to do or where to go.

    Fast travel? I like fast travel that make sense.

    Like the carts in Skyrim, I bumped up their prices, disabled fast travel, and gave myself teleporters at specific points on the map. I don't mind walking, just not from Riften to Solitude.



  • @xaade said:

    Well, the alternative is a very quickly put together craptacular F2P game, where everyone eventually complains about Pay 2 Win. Because to be honest, anything that offers an advantage is going to be P2W even if it's just an crafter's exp bonus potion.

    The alternative is not playing the game in the first place which was kind of my point.

    @xaade said:

    Honestly, it's mostly nostalgia, as I've played Morrowind, and when the quest description was outright wrong in where it told you to go (not wrong as in a riddle, but just wrong), that's more game breaking than fast travel.... which I can ignore.... very simply ignore

    Whatever fucking random quest had the pointers wrong notwithstanding, in Morrowind YOU COULD FLY! Custom potions and enchantments that messed with player speed and flight allowed you to progress from a dumb guy walking everywhere to zipping across the entire map, which was a fucking awesome feeling. The whole point of it was the progression, from having to walk everywhere to having a bunch of different ways to travel at your disposal, including Morrowind's own version of fast travel (Mages Guild, boat trips, silt striders).

    Fast travel everywhere ABSOLUTELY RUINS ALL THAT! Nevermind the utter lack of flying in Oblivion and further which was mostly out of laziness with the level design rather than compelling balance reasons. The games are unbalanced in favor of the player by a whole bunch as they stand anyways. Look at Skyrim where flight would break like 90% of the dungeon design because all they do is give you a linear path with a shortcut to the entrance at the end (and people praised Skyrim because of their "hand-made" dungeon design as opposed to the copy-and-paste Oblivion approach, lol).

    Morrowind was great. Has it aged poorly? Certainly, since action games have come a long way, and if there's one thing Skyrim does far better than Morrowind, it's the combat. But the general direction TES has taken since Morrowind has been a sorry one, as a fan of the series far before Oblivion was even a thing in Bethesda's mind.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @dstopia said:

    (and people praised Skyrim because of their "hand-made" dungeon design as opposed to the copy-and-paste Oblivion approach, lol)

    If you really want annoying dungeon design, try Dragon Age 2.

    Or better yet, don't.



  • @dstopia said:

    in Morrowind YOU COULD FLY!

    Which has no place in the lore or storytelling.
    There are several characters which are, by lore, more powerful than you, but cannot fly.

    @dstopia said:

    including Morrowind's own version of fast travel (Mages Guild, boat trips, silt striders).

    Which people whined about in Skyrim. Saying that even the wagons fast travel ruined the game.

    @dstopia said:

    Fast travel everywhere ABSOLUTELY RUINS ALL THAT!

    Which can be completely ignored. You want to complain about what's available in the game that ruins your experience???

    YOU HAVE A CONSOLE THAT LET'S YOU GODMODE.

    Argument invalidated.

    @dstopia said:

    YOU COULD FLY!

    Speaking of. There's mods for that.

    @dstopia said:

    shortcut to the entrance at the end

    Because walking over the corpses through a dungeon that took you 30 minutes to complete.... is fun.



  • @xaade said:

    Which has no place in the lore or storytelling.There are several characters which are, by lore, more powerful than you, but cannot fly.

    So fucking what? Flying was fucking incredible in Morrowind. Justifying laziness on lore is dumb.

    @xaade said:

    Which people whined about in Skyrim. Saying that even the wagons fast travel ruined the game.

    Did I ever mention that?

    @xaade said:

    Which can be completely ignored. You want to complain about what's available in the game that ruins your experience???

    YOU HAVE A CONSOLE THAT LET'S YOU GODMODE.

    Argument invalidated.

    You also have a quest marker and nothing else to guide you. The way the game is designed revolves around fast travel. Part of Morrowind was about traveling and figuring out a way to get places.

    @xaade said:

    Because walking over the corpses through a dungeon that took you 30 minutes to complete.... is fun.

    You seem to not understand the concept of good level design. It's no wonder you can't understand what makes Oblivion and Skyrim a step backwards from Morrowind in everything but combat (and Oblivion's is even debatable). Hint: It has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that there is a shortcut to the exit. The shortcut is a symptom of the issue, not the actual issue.



  • @dstopia said:

    You also have a quest marker and nothing else to guide you.

    You have the name of the cave.

    "Between the two hills with the red flags" may be fun for you to scour a map for 50 hours, but not me.

    Not everything has a landmark.

    Plus, a lot of the quests in Skyrim has a person I'm following.

    And by the way.

    www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/38017/?c

    Modding.... that's 90% of the game.



  • @xaade said:

    Modding.... that's 90% of the game.

    I spent months in vanilla Morrowind without even the expansions, only the last update to the main game.

    Mods are okay, but not the reason why the games are good (well, Oblivion is not good in any way). Unless you're looking for TES: Anime Sex Simulator.



  • @dstopia said:

    You seem to not understand the concept of good level design.

    Then please do tell.

    I'm stuck on options

    1. shortcut
    2. loops around, and thus shortcut
    3. walk back through the map of dead people.

    Teleporter to entrance? Shortcut.
    Exit that opens up in a different spot in the world after you beat the map? Shortcut.
    Fade to black and place character in a bed waking up? Shortcut.



  • The shortcut is a SYMPTOM.

    The issue lies somewhere else.

    I'm not going to spell it out for you because you don't understand what level design is.



  • @dstopia said:

    I spent months in vanilla Morrowind without even the expansions

    Maybe you should start a game company.

    Call it throwback.

    Or maybe you could take your money, do a quick search on Steam, and buy the endless amount of games like Risen that attempt to bring back old school RPGs.

    They really really need your support if they are going to survive.



  • @dstopia said:

    I'm not going to spell it out for you because you don't understand what level design is.

    Those who can design a level, do.

    Those who can only bitch about level design, and can't point out why, yet criticize everyone else for not being able to realize their enlightenment, do.

    If you really have a case for level design, you would be able to explain it to me, or at least direct me to information that agrees with your thought.

    I mean to be caustic, because I've pointed out that you can either move through what you've already moved through, or offer a different way to exit, all of which amount to a shortcut of some form.

    And yet, you imply there's some magical alternative, but are unwilling to spell it out for me.

    Very few of the dungeons in Skryim have shortcuts like that. Most have multiple exits, with plenty of opportunity to miss portions of the dungeon. Some even find creative ways to replenish mobs if you have to exit the way you came.



  • Dude there's no point in arguing with someone who thinks Oblivion is a bad game. He's obviously insane.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    Oblivion is a bad game

    I absolutely hated the way they did stats and leveling, and immediately downloaded the mod that gave you 5 points in each stat as long as you leveled a skill for that stat at least once.

    Skyrim does a much better job at leveling. Much much better.

    They could have done a better job on the models, but I've had to fix the models and animation for each of their games, morrowind on up. Fallout too.

    But other than that, Oblivion was no where near a bad game.

    I think he's focused on the lack of instructions in quests, and fast travel. Both of which can be solved instantly with a mod.

    He fails to realize that breaking immersion, lore, and even reason by letting you jump the entire map, is literally no different than fast travel. In fact it cheats even more, by letting you "fast travel" without consuming time.

    Sure it's fun to do, but if we're talking about game breaking, jumping and flying takes the cake.

    Just another nostalgia critic, without the graceful realization at the end that they are wrong.



  • @xaade said:

    <flying> Which has no place in the lore or storytelling.

    What about that wizard in stairless tower?

    @xaade said:

    If you really have a case for level design, you would be able to explain it to me, or at least direct me to information that agrees with your thought.

    Dark Souls. You go through the same locations again and again. And it never gets old. In Skyrim, going through the same location twice is so boring they need to put another exit to every cave.

    I suck at level design. I don't know what makes a good level. But I know Skyrim is bad at it. But IIRC, Morrowind was even worse in this regard (it didn't have many underground locations, except for tombs, few Dwemer ruins, Corprusarium and Mournhold sewers). It just wasn't noticable because you spent most time reading walls of text in cozy houses.

    @xaade said:

    Very few of the dungeons in Skryim have shortcuts like that.

    About 75%.

    @xaade said:

    Most have multiple exits

    Actually, not many dungeons have those. And even if they do, most have only two - the proper entrance through which you go inside, and the proper exit just after the boss chest.

    @xaade said:

    with plenty of opportunity to miss portions of the dungeon

    Usually in form of a locked small room with a chest or bookcase.

    @xaade said:

    Some even find creative ways to replenish mobs if you have to exit the way you came.

    Don't remember any.

    @xaade said:

    Skyrim does a much better job at leveling. Much much better.

    Leveling as in how to gain levels? Absolutely. Leveling as in how higher skill levels affect the character? Hell no (compared to Morrowind). Skills almost don't matter, only the perks do. And enchanting is nearly as game-breaking as Morrowind potions (100% magicka cost reduction in two schools of magic, without even using any fortify enchantment potions, much less doing exploits - bitch please).

    @xaade said:

    He fails to realize that breaking immersion, lore, and even reason by letting you jump the entire map, is literally no different than fast travel. In fact it cheats even more, by letting you "fast travel" without consuming time.

    Except levitation requires skill, and fast travel doesn't. Died so many times from misuse of Icarian Flight...



  • The only thing which would make Skyrim perfect is Dark Souls combat. I quite like everything else. Fast travel is fine for those missions of "deliver x to y" which, well, give you exp, but are a pain when they get too repetitive.

    @xaade said:

    games like Risen that attempt to bring back old school RPGs.

    Any pointers? I played the demo for Risen but didn't like it a bit, specially the combat was clumsy. But the whole idea was fine.


  • The Cold Doesn't Bother Us Anyway

    @dstopia said:

    TES: Anime SexHentai Simulator.

    The word you wre looking for is Hentai.

    and :facepalm: why am i not surprised that there's a mod for morrowind that does that?



  • The clue was in my first post. Skyrim dungeons are a walk-forward-until-you-hit-the-end simulator, hence the need for a shortcut or an alternate exit at the end since the only logical way out of the tunnel would be to walk straight back.

    Morrowind had a higher variety of dungeons. The first Dwemer dungeon you encounter alone is a lot more complex than almost any dungeon Skyrim has to offer. It had three different levels with various ways of reaching them (including flying) plus it required you to do more stuff than "reach the end" to "clear" it.

    Good level design is not a tunnel, no matter how little imagination you have.



  • @Eldelshell said:

    The only thing which would make Skyrim perfect is Dark Souls combat.

    Dark Souls has EXCELLENT level design. Skyrim is miles below it in that respect.



  • @xaade said:

    He fails to realize that breaking immersion, lore, and even reason by letting you jump the entire map, is literally no different than fast travel. In fact it cheats even more, by letting you "fast travel" without consuming time.

    What is immersion breaking about giving you in-game tools to fucking FLY?! It was even required by the plot to do it (in order to reach the flying rock in Vivec). The whole point of flying is that it's awesome. It wasn't cheating because you had to WORK to do it.

    The fact that a console exists to give you god mode or noclip doesn't matter. Any game on PC has access to a hex editor, it's beyond the point. The fact is that Morrowind was designed with flying in mind while the following games nixed it out of laziness, because they were unable to think of an interesting world that allowed the player to fly in it. Hell, there's an entire city in Morrowind designed to be more easily traversed if you can fly (the Telvanni one).



  • @Gaska said:

    Actually, not many dungeons have those. And even if they do, most have only two - the proper entrance through which you go inside, and the proper exit just after the boss chest.

    The dwemer ones were all interconnected with a massive underground area.

    Most of the forts have multiple exits on several levels, allowing you to miss whole portions of it. At least one has an underground exit into a lake.

    The dungeon that is referenced as an easy way to get all the race blood, actually replenishes mobs with an ambush. And there was at least one more dungeon that had an ambush.

    @Gaska said:

    Leveling as in how higher skill levels affect the character? Hell no

    Skills increase damage, spell skills decrease cost, sneak skill makes a huge difference.
    Oblivion and Morrowind skill levels just gave you automatic perks, so I don't see the difference here, other than "choice"?

    @Gaska said:

    nearly as game-breaking as Morrowind potions

    So morrowind has something MORE game breaking than skyrim, and that's somehow an argument that skyrim is worse.

    @Gaska said:

    Died so many times from misuse of Icarian Flight...

    Died from falling off horse.... and...

    @Gaska said:

    fast travel doesn't.

    Can be ignored, even modded out if it's hurting your experience that much.

    I don't understand this argument.

    I mean, it would be like someone complaining that we have trains which you can sleep on. These trains are ruining my life experience.

    You can avoid them.

    Oh no, if I avoid them, I have to know that other people are using trains.... my life is wrecked.... #FirstWorldProblems

    @Gaska said:

    What about that wizard in stairless tower?

    One in game reference to flying which could be considered an easter egg. A novel quest at most. If you and that wizard can fly, why don't we see flying NPCs in action everywhere. That's lazy of them not to include flying NPCs to account for the lore ability to fly.

    @Gaska said:

    I suck at level design. I don't know what makes a good level. But I know Skyrim is bad at it.

    Ah, the internet....

    @Gaska said:

    But IIRC, Morrowind was even worse in this regard

    :WTF: You're argument that Morrowind was better is hinging on two points where it is worse?



  • @Eldelshell said:

    The only thing which would make Skyrim perfect is Dark Souls combat.

    Toned down a little bit.

    Dark Souls has crisper combat, where timing and placement matters. But I think it TES at Dark Souls intensity would ruin the atmosphere.



  • @Eldelshell said:

    Any pointers? I played the demo for Risen but didn't like it a bit, specially the combat was clumsy. But the whole idea was fine.

    Yeah, but Risen is Morrowind level of combat.

    Risen 3 is crisper in that regard.

    But my point is that, if you really want something, you have to invest in people that are making attempts at that thing. When the market sees the value of selling to people that want classic RPGs, the market will adjust.

    You alone won't make much difference.


    As for Risen.... there just isn't much better.

    Dragon's Dogma is a unique approach on it, but the world and lore is so barren and the acting is so dull, combat and rpg character building is about all you'll get.

    Consoles have really ruined our chances to get a classic MMO feel.



  • What is Risen?



  • This epic role playing game is set in a medieval world on a volcanic Mediterranean island. The “Risen” story unfolds over four chapters and will offer multiple ways to develop the story by his own actions and decisions. With full world streaming support, the player will have a seamless experience while playing in a fully simulated game world with authentic characters.



  • @dstopia said:

    TES

    To me, this just means:
    gitaxian probe, rite of flame, rite of flame, Mana Morphose, dark ritual, Empty the Warrens.

    Why wouldn't you just play ANT instead?



  • Singleplayer sandbox games, meh



  • @Eldelshell said:

    those missions of "deliver x to y" which, well, give you exp

    They don't. Not per se, at least.

    @xaade said:

    The dwemer ones were all interconnected with a massive underground area.

    Never found it. All those Dwemerdwarven stuff felt the same, diferring only in direction of next descent and placement of locked rooms. You say there's some hub connecting all the Dwemerdwarven fortresses? Quite cool.

    @xaade said:

    So morrowind has something MORE game breaking than skyrim, and that's somehow an argument that skyrim is worse.

    I was talking about skills development, not skill exploiting. Morrowind had serious balance issues (you could buy stuff from merchants at lower price than you could sell it back immediately after), and Skyrim "fixed" this problem by dumbing everything down.

    @xaade said:

    Can be ignored, even modded out if it's hurting your experience that much.

    I think you forgot who you're talking to. The one who complained about fast travel system was the other guy here.

    @xaade said:

    One in game reference to flying which could be considered an easter egg. A novel quest at most. If you and that wizard can fly, why don't we see flying NPCs in action everywhere. That's lazy of them not to include flying NPCs to account for the lore ability to fly.

    AFAIK, the lore explanation was that those no-stairs guys were crazy and everyone else preferred to feel the ground under their feet. It feels like a stupid explanation, but back in early 19th century people considered washing hands pointless.

    @xaade said:

    Ah, the internet....

    Not internet, just human nature. I'm terrible football coach. I never even tried. But I can tell when some team sucks balls.

    @xaade said:

    You're argument that Morrowind was better is hinging on two points where it is worse?

    Was I ever arguing that Morrowind is better?

    @xaade said:

    Dark Souls has crisper combat, where timing and placement matters. But I think it TES at Dark Souls intensity would ruin the atmosphere.

    The atmosphere of being a demigod just because your socks give you infinite magicka? Yes, it would. Good riddance!

    @xaade said:

    Yeah, but Risen is Morrowind level of combat.

    Morrowind is much, much worse. It has probably the most terrible combat system of all action RPGs. It's only good if you're fond of tabletop RPGs.

    @xaade said:

    Consoles have really ruined our chances to get a classic MMO feel.

    You like grinding? :grimacing: Or did you mispell RPG as MMO?

    @tarunik said:

    What is Risen?

    Gothic after the IP for Gothic has been taken from original developers.



  • @Gaska said:

    I think you forgot who you're talking to

    I did

    @Gaska said:

    Or did you mispell RPG as MMO?

    I did

    Man, it was a long night, I was up from 10PM to 4AM working on a system for a client.



  • @xaade said:

    I did

    Man, it was a long night, I was up from 10PM to 4AM working on a system for a client.

    Explains why I was confused, then.

    I'm still wishing that WoW hadn't gone and set the development of the MMO genre back a good decade...



  • @tarunik said:

    good decade...

    ?



  • I mean, WoW cost the MMORPG world easily a decade or more worth of genre development -- not only did it crush many competing MMOs by sucking them dry of players from within the gaming world, Blizzard's aggressive advertising drew in players from outside the gaming world and then WoW instilled in them expectations of what a MMORPG should be that add up to a total bastardization of the genre and its potential.



  • Yes, but what kind of advancements would you want to see?



  • @xaade said:

    Yes, but what kind of advancements would you want to see?

    If you want an example of the genre mostly living up to its potential, look no further than EVE Online. How many other games have the BBC reporting on things that happened in-game? Never mind the ecosystem surrounding EVE -- this is a game that's spawned multiple websites nearly-dedicated to reporting on it, with a Fox vs. CNN type of battle going on between them! (That'd be EveNews24 in the role of Fox and TheMittani.com in the role of CNN, by the way.)

    As to a more specific listing:

    • Meaningful industry -- i.e. you can make your hay in EVE as a dedicated manufacturer, instead of being stuck crafting as a side job to raiding
    • A free-market, player-driven economy -- Jita 4-4 (aka EVE's main trade hub) is a cross between the Chicago Board of Trade and the Mall of America, and more importantly, nothing in EVE is Bind on Pickup, so if you have it and don't want it, you either reprocess it (recycling FTW) or hope someone else wants it and has a buy order up for it ;)
    • Ownable territory and structures (although the technical underpinnings of this functionality in EVE are getting a major overhaul in the near future)
    • Scalable world PvP with a shallow power curve -- this obviates the need to segregate players by level, as newbs and veterans can fight side-by-side without rendering the other ineffective, and the game neither restricts the scale of combat nor forces large-scale fights -- solo encounters, ganks, arena-type fighting, tactical skirmishing, and full-on strategic warfare are all supported
    • A game that provides a backdrop for story threads, instead of forcing a story down your throat -- quests are not written to make you out as The Savior Of Us All, and are not mandatory for progression.


  • @tarunik said:

    ganks, arena-type fighting

    Are not up my ally at all. I do not want to fight a player, period. Cooperation against AI is more my interest. Because I don't have twitch reaction speed, I can't compete with players in FPS or PVP of any kind.

    @tarunik said:

    look no further than EVE Online

    Which has gotten criticism for being entirely player driven. There's relatively nothing in the game that drives it otherwise.

    The main problem with this isn't it existence, but that it is VERY hard to spin these type of games up.

    EVE's success is mostly due to the luck of the draw on building a community that works.

    There are other games that function exactly like Eve, but see less player draw, and fail.

    @tarunik said:

    Meaningful industry -- i.e. you can make your hay in EVE as a dedicated manufacturer, instead of being stuck crafting as a side job to raiding

    Which doesn't fully protect me from

    @tarunik said:

    ganks

    If the game allowed you to flag as non-pvp, and you could operate without these engagements entirely, then maybe.

    But I need a game that will focus on PvE advancements.

    The biggest problem with ESO is that its really just WoW themepark styled with Elder Scrolls flavoring. Sure the combat is better, but phasing doesn't do enough for making the game dynamic.



  • OH HEY LOOK THE GOOD EXAMPLE IS EVE ONLINE!

    What a shocker.



  • @xaade said:

    Are not up my ally at all. I do not want to fight a player, period. Cooperation against AI is more my interest. Because I don't have twitch reaction speed, I can't compete with players in FPS or PVP of any kind.

    PvP != twitch gaming (!)

    You don't need to be a twitch/micro artist to do well in EVE PvP -- being able to keep a cool head on your shoulders, stay aware of your surroundings, and play the chess game counts for far more than micro ever will in the EVE 'verse.

    Or in other words, micro doesn't matter when your prey just turned into bait, with a fleet set to wipe you out sitting one wormhole away because you tipped your hand just a little and the other guy had the situational awareness and coolheadedness to formulate a counter-plan instead of panic'ing. I've turned gank attempts against me into PvP kills that way on more than one occasion.

    @xaade said:

    Which has gotten criticism for being entirely player driven. There's relatively nothing in the game that drives it otherwise.

    The main problem with this isn't it existence, but that it is VERY hard to spin these type of games up.


    I will agree that it is quite hard to spin up such a game from scratch -- you need people willing to invest time into your game's community in a way that simply isn't needed in a themepark MMO.

    @xaade said:

    EVE's success is mostly due to the luck of the draw on building a community that works.

    I'd say it was not fully luck -- EVE also had the advantage of starting off in the pre-WoW era, where seed players were more readily available; they haven't become available again until recently, and the current crop of sandbox-seeds has more caveats than those available back then.

    @xaade said:

    If the game allowed you to flag as non-pvp, and you could operate without these engagements entirely, then maybe.

    Hint: stuff blowing up = business opportunities. ;) I have dropped on folks with varying degrees of success, survived being dropped on, and been full-on ganked in EVE -- and I'm still playing. Why? Because having one ship blown to smithereens isn't necessarily the end of the world, unlike what PvP-averse folks apparently think.

    It all boils down to risk and reward...

    Filed under: Why does everyone assume PvP is about twitch/micro?


  • The Cold Doesn't Bother Us Anyway

    @tarunik said:

    How many other games have the BBC reporting on things that happened in-game?

    Reporting in what way?



  • (That would be 6VDT-H for fellow EVE players, btw)



  • And to top it off -- an interview with the game's chief economist, EyjoG

    (last BBC link oneboxed, so why doesn't this one? @discoursebot!)



  • @tarunik - Days Since Last Discourse Bug: -1

    <!-- Posted by SockBot 0.13.0 "Devious Boris" on Sat Apr 11 2015 02:32:44 GMT+0000 (UTC)-->


  • when deciding on a game to play, "amount of press coverage" is about item #46762 on the list.



  • @tarunik said:

    last BBC link oneboxed, so why doesn't this one?

    At a guess, because one is www.bbc.co.uk, the other is news.bbc.co.uk. Look, Discourse turns the first one into a link, but doesn't recognize the other as a URL.



  • I find Eve fascinating to read about but the actual game seems like pure misery.



  • @KillaCoder said:

    I find Eve fascinating to read about but the actual game seems like pure misery.

    It's a strange creature -- some parts of it (damn you, structure grinding!) are miserable, others are awesome (like springing a perfect trap on someone ;) ). Thing is, the EVE metagame tends to weaponize psychology in a way you don't see in many other games...so you wind up wielding the miserable parts to keep other folks from doing things you DO NOT WANT (like kicking you out of your own home system) while trying to tiptoe about, roping unwitting victims into things that are awesome for you, but not so awesome for them (like catching them with their back turned and their pants down and blowing up their stuff), or just doing things that are simply awesome (shredding some of the toughest PvE in the game -- in frigates ;) )



  • Yup, that was interesting to read (thanks!) but I won't ever be trying the game!

    I much prefer single player games that I can lose myself in.



  • @tarunik said:

    their pants down and blowing up their stuff

    Is Eve NSFW?



  • @tarunik said:

    happened in-game

    Not many true, but it happened several times in WoW, but judging from previous statements you might not want to accept anything in wow as a consideration.

    My problem with EVE was the concept of committing to a year's worth of subscription fees to get skill Z via X and Y. The time limited leveling thing, while great from the perspective of (largely) eliminating the advantage of playing more hours per day in progression, made me feel much more strongly that no matter what I did, the owners would bleed me for 12 months of subscription fees before I could do anything relevant.

    That and they didn't (still don't?) readily accept GBP£ for subscriptions, and the price was way higher than wow, and it felt like a solo game where someone else would eventually come and blow you up.



  • @Gaska said:

    Is Eve NSFW?

    No, it's a metaphor for what happens when you find yourself in the position of the security guards in the federal building when Neo and his friends turn up... (Condition White -> Condition Black, in other word)

    @algorythmics said:

    Not many true, but it happened several times in WoW, but judging from previous statements you might not want to accept anything in wow as a consideration.

    I recall the ersatz in-game epidemiology experiment, is there something else you're thinking of however?

    @algorythmics said:

    My problem with EVE was the concept of committing to a year's worth of subscription fees to get skill Z via X and Y. The time limited leveling thing, while great from the perspective of (largely) eliminating the advantage of playing more hours per day in progression, made me feel much more strongly that no matter what I did, the owners would bleed me for 12 months of subscription fees before I could do anything relevant.

    That's not really the case -- tech 1 frigates and cruisers are quite relevant nowadays, just ask the Goons ;)

    @algorythmics said:

    That and they didn't (still don't?) readily accept GBP£ for subscriptions

    :wtf:? I'm surprised that that's the case -- they have quite a few UK players...

    @algorythmics said:

    and the price was way higher than wow

    For me, (2 subs), it's well worth the money for being part of something more than a giant adventure park ride...

    @algorythmics said:

    and it felt like a solo game where someone else would eventually come and blow you up.

    That's what getting into a decent corporation is for...



  • @tarunik said:

    others are awesome (like springing a perfect trap on someone ).

    That's not "awesome", that's you being a dick to someone.

    @tarunik said:

    Thing is, the EVE metagame tends to weaponize psychology in a way you don't see in many other games...

    Especially since everybody playing it is a dick.

    @tarunik said:

    roping unwitting victims into things that are awesome for you, but not so awesome for them

    What a fun game, I love playing with dicks.

    @tarunik said:

    (like catching them with their back turned and their pants down and blowing up their stuff),

    Whee! I am enjoying this dick game full of dicks immensely!

    @tarunik said:

    or just doing things that are simply awesome (shredding some of the toughest PvE in the game -- in frigates )

    Without knowing much about the game, that statement is utterly meaningless to me. What's so weird about playing in frigates? (Presumably one of the spaceship types...)


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