Debate on speeding, with a side order of "For $60, you can hack a connected car (original topic)"
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In the thread where that flamewar started, you ended up giving up the (proven false) bailey, asserting only the (true) motte. Several threads later, you can't just reassert the bailey again. We've already proven it false. It's gone. It's settled. We don't need to re-litigate this.
So...you missed the multiple times in this thread that I said I only mentioned it to wind blakey up? Just like now, if I say it again, I am not hoping that everyone on this forum has selective amnesia on the issue. I am just trying to screw with him. And if I continue to say it, it does not negate where I admitted error. I would just be doing it to wind you up.
And apparently it would work, you seem rankled.
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And apparently it would work, you seem rankled.
One of my clients is strategically deploying it against my company (motte, for budgeting and level-of-effort: "We just want it to work on iPad..." / bailey, for requirements, approvals, and scope-of-work: "full mobile responsiveness across all iOS and Android tablets and handsets currently in existence") and my PM isn't insulating me against it properly. Also, idiot friends and their idiot hot-button arguments...I've just been needled by it a hell of a lot lately, and I expect a higher level of discourse than that when I come here.
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I've just been needled by it a hell of a lot lately
Fair enough.
I expect a higher level of discourse than that when I come here.
You must be new here...
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I assume there's a reason diesels use that instead of a catalytic converter, like petrol cars do?
Most road diesel cars don't. Just some Audis and possibly BMWs over here AFAIK.
Most road diesel cars use Diesel Particulate Filters which is a requirement for Euro 5/6 emissions rating (and maybe Euro 4, can't remember). Diesel is more sooty so rather than just converting bad chemicals, the soot needs filtering out too then gets burned off later.
Maybe hanzo'd, there's like 180 posts left.
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Maybe hanzo'd, there's like 180 posts left.
Not that I recall, actually. But yeah, this topic got quite toasty earlier.
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And it does so in a manner that encourages last-minute braking, or forever staring at your speedo and not at the road ahead.
Who needs to stare at the speedo, rather than just check it every now and then? You're driving the damn car, you know whether it's speeding up or not.
Also cruise control - or in some cars (like Peugeots and Fords have had for years) - the optional speed limiter.
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how often are you nagged by cruise control?
I remember once I was traveling down the road and all of the sudden it felt like my accelerator was stuck.
I later found out that the mechanical part that governed what level to set the accelerator to based on input from cruise control had broken and was stuck at max.
Luckily I thought to remove the key in order to stop the car.
Another couple went off of a cliff when that happened.
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I've also never heard of an adaptive system that automatically changes the speed based on speed limits; normally, those systems reduce speed to maintain a safe distance from the car in front.
It's the next logical step considering the amount of cars (like most of the current VAG range) that can a) read speed limits and b) has adaptive cruise. I'd be happy with that rather having to deal with shit like the arbitrary changes of speed limit on the managed part of the M42 or M25.
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This post is deleted!
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the mechanical part that governed what level to set the accelerator to
How old was the car?!
Cars have been fly-by-wire for fucking years now, the cruise doesn't have a mechanical element to it.
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Who needs to stare at the speedo, rather than just check it every now and then?
Idiots do.
In a perfect world, speeding tickets would not be necessary. I routinely drive over the speed limit, because that is the speed that I feel comfortable driving at. Our vehicles are in good repair and I am an active driver who always pays attention to his surroundings, etc. The chances of an accident occurring are very minimal, and would not be due to my elevated speed.
Of course, to prove myself wrong: ~15 years ago, I was drunk at a poker game with friends and bought a Corvette. After I put new tires on it (the ones that were on it were out of round and caused vibration), I picked it up and was on the interstate headed back home and wondered to myself: "Why are all of these assholes driving so slowly?" I looked down at the speedo and was approaching triple digits on the speedometer. It felt a lot different at speed than my pickup did. ;)
So yeah, I guess it might be handy for the first couple of weeks you have a car?
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I am an active driver who always pays attention to his surroundings, etc
You may think you do, but you'd be surprised how much you miss
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Idiots do.
Quite.
I routinely drive over the speed limit, because that is the speed that I feel comfortable driving at.
I stick to the speed limit a lot (via the wonders of cruise) on dual carriageways/motorways largely because I can't be arsed watching out for the Police or cameras (although the sat nav alerts me to the latter so it's a lesser thing). Then I can just concentrate on the other idiots on the road.Or sending emails or whatever.
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You may think you do, but you'd be surprised how much you miss
Not likely...
A couple of years ago we went on vacation with my MIL. She was sitting in the passenger seat and constantly futzing around in her bag that was on the floor and blocking my mirrors. It drove me fucking crazy.
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I stick to the speed limit a lot...(snip)...because I can't be arsed watching out for the Police or cameras
We don't have to worry about those much here on the other side of the pond.
the sat nav alerts me to the latter
Your sat nav tells you where the speed cameras are???
I have never heard a more worthy application of technology in my life.
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In a perfect world, speeding tickets would not be necessary.
QFT
Watched a cop bypass a guy that was falling all over the road, to catch a speeder who was in their lane driving safely. Cop had to dodge bad driver to get to speeder.
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@loopback0 said:
the sat nav alerts me to the latter
Your sat nav tells you where the speed cameras are???I have never heard a more worthy application of technology in my life.
Fixed ones only; the detectors that could alert you to the mobile ones were outlawed…
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Your sat nav tells you where the speed cameras are???
Sat nav on my phone (CoPilot) does.
There's even an app which does nothing but point out the speed cameras. Seems to be Europe only though.
TomTom AmiGO - GPS Navigation - Apps on Google Play
Online Maps, Live Traffic, Speed Camera & Android Auto
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the detectors that could alert you to the mobile ones were outlawed…
And also didn't fucking work.
By the time the detector has detected the radar from the gun, it's already got you.Fixed ones only
It has some locations where mobile cameras are regularly placed.
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Hell. They are more or less legally forbidden to lock the things down by things like the Right to Repair Act. Which, incidentally, I agree with.
Basically, they need to limit the scope of potential damage. That's it. But that requires more expensive engineering than a single programmable connected system,so they aren't likely to bother with that either.
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I wonder how much money rural counties would save if they didn't install speed limit signs on rural highways. Cops don't patrol 1,000 miles of highway that sees an average of two cars per day, and they have to replace the signs every few years because idiots shoot them with buckshot and/or steal them.
Besides, as bad as some of those roads are you'd have to have a death wish to exceed 50 mph on many of them.
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There is much less incentive for car manufacturers to have good security and their update model is laughable.
True, but most cars aren't "connected" and so access to the CANbus requires (or is supposed to at least - I'm looking at you, BMW) the car to be unlocked and the ignition on (although the engine doesn't need to be started). If someone's got a key to your car, you've got other problems that can't be solved by securing CAN.
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It has some locations where mobile cameras are regularly placed.
I was amused when I read about the underground movement to destroy the cameras. Do they still do that?
Saboteurs take out 700 speed cameras
They are Mad - or Motorists Against Detection - and are dedicated to destroying the tools that help to keep roads safe.
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Yeah. I'm not sure it's quite as common but it still goes on.
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Country dependent. We also get alerts on mobile speed patrols over commercial radio channels.
In France, on the other hand, these features are very illegal.
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In France, on the other hand, these features are very illegal.
i've often had cause to wonder when hearing news of X being illegal in france..... Is ANYTHING legal in france?
X changes about once a week....
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Being French.
Oh, and protesting in Calais.
...and 30 hour work weeks with a bottle of wine for lunch.
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The chances of an accident occurring are very minimal, and would not be due to my elevated speed.
There's a not insignificant chance that they either would be prevented by the extra seconds you would have to react before hitting whatever you hit and the extra seconds it wouldn't have taken you to stop, if you were going slower, or that if they did still occur no-one would die. Speeding is dangerous, even for special snowflakes.
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There's a fair chance that they either would have been prevented by the extra seconds you would have to react before hitting whatever you hit, and the extra seconds it wouldn't have taken you to stop if you'd been going slower, or that if it had still occurred no-one would have died. Speeding is dangerous, even for special snowflakes.
Do you drive the speed limit?
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True, but most cars aren't "connected" and so access to the CANbus requires the car to be unlocked and the ignition on.
Feature creep. My example of a remote starter couldn't be done with those limitations. Putting stuff on the CAN bus reduces cost, increases diagnostics capability, and increases reliability. So, eventually, the whole car is going to be on the bus.
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Speeding is dangerous, even for special snowflakes.
Speed limits are set by rules that are not related to reality. So, speeding may be dangerous, but exceeding the posted speed limit is usually not.
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So, eventually, the whole car is going to be on the bus.
That will significantly increase the size of buses.
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I mean access that's external to the car - eg the OBD port. A remote starter could still function without enabling the OBD port.
So, eventually, the whole car is going to be on the bus.
All of the electronic modules in my car are already on CAN - this has been the case for years with some cars.
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Do you drive the speed limit?
If, factoring in the weather, traffic, state of the road and any other factors, I feel comfortable going as fast as the limit.
Speed limits are set by rules that are not related to reality. So, speeding may be dangerous, but exceeding the posted speed limit is usually not.
I don't know what the situation in in the US but where I come from, the only place that might apply is on the motorway. The speed limit in a built-up area is [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cvja-PA5Egc]certainly not unrelated to reality[/url].
The national limit outside of built-up areas is indeed not related to reality: it's 60, which is far too fast for a great many roads without a lower posted limit, it's left to drivers' discretion to determine how fast it's actually safe to go, though of course if you're doing 60 round single-track country lanes with poor visibility and the police see you I'm sure you will done for driving without due care and attention. Where a lower limit than the national is posted, outside a built-up area, you can usually see why: it's on narrow roads, sharp bends, accident black-spots and the like, or temporary limits during roadworks.
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Watched a cop bypass a guy that was falling all over the road, to catch a speeder who was in their lane driving safely. Cop had to dodge bad driver to get to speeder.
That sort of thing is why I want the body setting the limits, the body paying for the police, and the body receiving the income from fines to be different from each other. It removes all sorts of dodgy incentives to set things evilly. If setting low speed limits won't increase your income, why would you do it? If you've not got anything to do with either limit setting or income from them, why would you ignore a dangerous driver to go after someone speeding? (Yes, some people are both. That's different, though more speed makes driving safely more difficult because you have less time to react to things going wrong.)
Alas, it's still no panacea. Giving local government control over speed limits — even if no income is resultant from that — still means that they can be set wrong in order to pander to local residents instead of people from out of town. Yet giving control to higher levels of government tends to make it remote and much less relevant to local needs in the first place. :(
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@RaceProUK said:
Being French.
...and 30 hour work weeks with a bottle of wine for lunch.
So it's not all bad then...
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That sort of thing is why I want the body setting the limits, the body paying for the police, and the body receiving the income from fines
I could see that.
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What if your fines, went into your retirement fund, untouchable by the government, and untouchable by you until you retire.
YAY!
But on a serious note, what's wrong with community service instead of fines?
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What if your fines, went into your retirement fund, untouchable by the government, and untouchable by you until you retire.
What if your fines went into your neighbours retirement funds?
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the only place that might apply is on the motorway
There are plenty of non-motorway roads where it's safe to go over 60mph.
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Or your HSA?
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There are plenty of non-motorway roads where it's safe to go over 60mph.
How many of them are not separated-carriageway roads?
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You mean dual carriageways? Where you can typically do 70mph legally anyway?
Plenty of them aren't those.
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Or your HSA?
The usual point of a fine is that you shouldn't benefit from it at all. Giving that money to someone else is a punishment, meant to discourage a behaviour pattern, not a form of forced investment.
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If, factoring in the weather, traffic, state of the road and any other factors, I feel comfortable going as fast as the limit.
Well then, I am not meaning to be an ass, but it is likely that you are the problem. It has been statistically shown that when you account for the number of miles driven annually, those who speed are far less likely to get in to an accident. Speed limits, and speed in general do nothing to reduce the likelihood of collisions. People driving poorly, inattentively, under the influence and other factors do have a causal and corollary relationship to accidents.
Citation from a country that you might believe
The national limit outside of built-up areas is indeed not related to reality: it's 60, which is far too fast for a great many roads without a lower posted limit
You have to be kidding me? Your motorways are not safe to drive at 60mph? I routinely drive 80+mph on our interstate system and never feel the slightest bit unsafe. It feels like an entirely safe and prudent speed to me. I have driven for short stretches at over 100mph and never felt any danger except for that of a speeding ticket. (I am not advocating that, the road was wide open and straight with good visibility and no precipitation. It is not something I routinely do...settle down "health and safety Nazis")
Hell, in your very own country it has been shown that the speed cameras have actually increased the accident rates, yet they keep using them...because they are money makers. That is it. They do nothing for the safety of people, and neither do speeding tickets...for the most part.
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The usual point of a fine is that you shouldn't benefit from it at all.
But ironically the government does benefit from it....
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You have to be kidding me? Your motorways are not safe to drive at 60mph? I routinely drive 80+mph on our interstate system and never feel the slightest bit unsafe. It feels like an entirely safe and prudent speed to me.
On I-82 through Eastern Washington, yes. In I-5 through downtown Seattle? Definitely no.
Way too much regional variance to make any kind of single statement of safe speed here.
