Junior developer woes
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College is failing us => FACT.
How do we solve it?
This screwdriver is awful at putting in nails and breaks all the time. How do we fix that?
College isn't trade school. The first step in solving this problem is not treating it like one.
I'll grant that the current university system isn't serving IT well, but I'd hate to go to a master-apprentice system when, well... look at the javascript open-source community. They're re-inventing the wheel every six months as it is. You want to entrust the future of IT to those guys?
That would be the other problem. The industry is still very young as compared to, for example, civil engineering. People have been putting up bridges for thousands of years, and the best ways to put up a bridge so that it stays up are well known. We in the computing industry are still experimenting with different paradigms. So we can't have a master-apprentice system yet because there isn't the pre-requisite of having masters: an established body of universally-agreed best practices with a long (100 years or more) track record.
But one CPA never goes to another and says "Are you using double-entry bookkeeping?" and the other guy goes "What's that? I made my own accounting system."
That's because we don't have the equivalent of double-entry bookkeeping identified yet.
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And then I read something that went completely over my head. Sometimes I didn't understand what the damned thing is even meant to do. Sometimes, I understood it but didn't see what's wrong with it. So I hit the comment section. And there I found people who explained the WTF. Who posted bits of code, sometimes to mock, sometimes to show how it's actually done.
The fact that you're willing to put in the extra effort to try to understand something not immediately obvious to you, probably puts you into the top n% of programmers. The fact that you recognized your own limitation and tried to overcome it, I don think that's the kind of thing they can teach you—it was within you all along...
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College isn't trade school. The first step in solving this problem is not treating it like one.
You know that and I know that but society-in-general does not know that. Neither does our Government. Or President specifically.
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If every programmer produces a piece of art, when a standard cog is needed, we won't have an industry.
But not all cogs are equal—some cogs are a better fit than others in the machine of life. (Help, I sprained my analogy!)
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President
All he's going to do is devalue college. To the point where you'll need it to flip burgers. But hey, that will make it dependent on the government.
I mean, why do you think people leave all these countries with free education, to go to school in countries without free education.
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You know that and I know that but society-in-general does not know that. Neither does our Government. Or President specifically.
I'm not sure about that. College is big business these days. People are making a lot of money on student loans. I suspect they're fully aware of that but have no interest in fixing it because too much money is being made.
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But then again...a lot of those guys are people who don't really understand much of anything outside of lawyering / academia / running for office, so it's not as obvious as it looks, especially when the guys making all that money in academia are telling them how it doesn't need fixing, except to make sure the customers can keep paying.
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Whatever keeps you engaged and gets you to think is generally a worthwhile way to learn.
+1
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Eventually you're going to need a college education to be a store clerk
I remember reading a story once, a long time ago, in which college education had been so inflated that people got degrees like "M.A. of Typing" and "Ph.D. of Office Administration."
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it doesn't need fixing, except to make sure the customers can keep paying.
Which also happens to be our approach to health care.
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And both were partially subsidized by government.
just listing common factors
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People are making a lot of money on student loans
Private loans maybe. I wouldn't say that 4% on a (federal) loan is making a lot of money when considering the average annualized inflation rate is 3%
Unless you're trying to say the cost of college is inflated because of federal student aid.
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Private loans maybe. I wouldn't say that 4% on a (federal) loan is making a lot of money when considering the average annualized inflation rate is 3%
True, but what's the default rate (the rate charged to former students who miss a payment)?
Unless you're trying to say the cost of college is inflated because of federal student aid.
I thought that was common knowledge, but that's also a factor.
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When my dad went to Zagreb University back in the 60's, part of his mechanical engineering course requirement was to work at a job as an intern, for which he was graded by his Supervisor on the quality of his work. Thus, upon graduation, he had real work experience in tandem with the degree.
When I was getting my EE in the 80's, this was an opportunity, but not a requirement. I don't know how many of my fellow students took the opportunity, but I'm really glad I did. That experience, and the specific internship I chose of the four offered, besides being good work experience (and earning real money), set the direction for my career. Had I chosen, say, the microwave technician position, I would never have had the level of professional involvement with computers that I have had, and almost certainly wouldn't be here on TDWTF today. (Why, oh why didn't I take that other job?)
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True, but what's the default rate (the rate charged to former students who miss a payment)?
The rate isn't different, but you get collections fees added and your wages and tax refund can be garnished. You aren't considered in default until 270 days of non-payment. Would you like to know more?
In a way, the shitty part is that you can't discharge them through bankruptcy except in extreme circumstances. However, since they are de facto unsecured loans how else could you make sure taxpayers were paid back?
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When I was getting my EE in the 80's, this was an opportunity, but not a requirement.
Here it was a requirement, but lots and lots of people winged it by showing up once to get the paper. Me, I landed a pretty decent job - doesn't pay much, but the team is great, we do serious business, and I appreciate the elasticity.
Almost everyone decided to go for the masters', though. Thanks, inflation.
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I wouldn't say that 4% on a (federal) loan is making a lot of money when considering the average annualized inflation rate is 3%
The risk is pretty much zero. You might have to work a bit to get paid back, but you will get paid back.
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Your post makes no sense. Did you quote the wrong post? I didn't say anything about risk in that quote. 1% return over inflation is not much.
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We all speak from our own experience, and we have teachers who went to school in order to become teachers and spent little to no time in the real world solving real problems. That is how you end up with teachers who teach as though they are preparing students to become teachers. We need teachers with real world experience if you want to save that aspect of the educational system.
There are business/university partnerships where people with extensive real-world experience take a semester or two leave from their regular jobs to teach. Unfortunately, there are a few problems with this. First, there are not enough of them. Second, I think they are often relegated to advanced graduate seminars, rather than practical classes for undergrads, where they would likely be more useful. Finally, of course, being an acknowledged expert in your field doesn't necessarily mean you can teach worth a damn. Nevertheless, despite the problems, ISTM that having more "visiting professorships" would be a good thing.
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Your post makes no sense. Did you quote the wrong post? I didn't say anything about risk in that quote. 1% return over inflation is not much.
Investing money is all about risk vs. yield. Money in the bank makes nothing these days, so a completely safe investment that beats inflation is a worthwhile investment.On the other hand, giving college kids credit cards is a risky business, so you need to charge 20%.
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I'd completely disagree that 1% above inflation is better thank index fund investing, but again this is off topic.
On the other hand, giving college kids credit cards is a risky business, so you need to charge 20%.
This is why you need proof of ability to repay or a cosigner if you're under 21 to get a credit card now
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ISTM that having more "visiting professorships" would be a good thing.
Probably, but it also would help reinforce the college as job training idea (especially using some of the reasons you gave for it). So I'm not sure the increase in view points in the faculty (the main thing I see this as good for) is worth the cost.
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People are making a lot of money on student loans. I suspect they're fully aware of that but have no interest in fixing it because too much money is being made.
Grr, don't get me started on that. As a parent, in order for my kids to indebt themselves, I also had to indebt myself on their behalf. As far as I can tell, normal procedures of borrowing money don't apply to student (and parent) loans. Truth-In-Lending laws normally require the lender to tell you how much you're borrowing, what the interest rate is, what your payments will be — insignificant little things like that — up front. With student loans, not so much.
Fill out this application (and a bunch of extra paperwork because you have bad credit and we're not sure you can pay it back). We'll send it to the school, and they'll tell you how much you've just indebted yourself when they give you the money. Payments? Well, you'll find out when you get the bill.
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This is why you need proof of ability to repay or a cosigner if you're under 21 to get a credit card now
... and the rate is probably 35% by now. I haven't been to college in a long time. Good thing South Dakota and Delaware got rid of their usury laws and usury has been clarified to apply at the mailing address of the lender, not the borrower.
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Except the rate doesn't fucking matter if you use a credit card properly so this all boils down to not giving students sound personal finance knowledge by the time they leave high school.
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Private loans maybe. I wouldn't say that 4% on a (federal) loan is making a lot of money when considering the average annualized inflation rate is 3%
Well, there is a bit of chicanery going on with those numbers. They are not making 1% on their money over inflation. Inflation would only pertain to the fractional reserve of the bank and they are allowed to loan many multiples of that
I am not really taking a side on this, but the real numbers are a bit obfuscated from what you state.
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Why are you talking about credit cards.
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I'd completely disagree that 1% above inflation is better thank index fund investing, but again this is off topic.
This is why you need proof of ability to repay or a cosigner if you're under 21 to get a credit card now
I would want to extend this to college attendees under 26.
Since that's the cap for ACA having children on parent's insurance, it's a good number to use.
It needs to include the college costs as a fixed cost, like house payments.I mean if we're going to treat people under 26 as children, then by all means let's do so.
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they'll tell you how much you've just indebted yourself when they give you the money
Unless the FAFSA process has drastically changed since I graduated, it's not quite like that: you're presented with "This is how much we're willing to loan you", which you can choose not to accept if you prefer. My father paid my tuition but I had to take out loans to pay for textbooks, housing, meals, et cetera, so I routinely only accepted the fully-subsidized portion of the loan offer and declined the unsubsidized and "PLUS" portions of the loans.
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Unless the FAFSA process has drastically changed since I graduated, it's not quite like that:
Not to mention the fact that you know how much you are spending, and there are resources to tell you how much you can expect to spend for a degree at each college, etc.
But the part about requiring parents to become indebted is just wrong. If your parents are just assholes, is there a way around that requirement?
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Loan Shark
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"This is how much we're willing to loan you", which you can choose not to accept if you prefer.
Perhaps my kids have that option for their loans. As a parent, I've never seen it.
A 2015-2016 Free Application for Federal Student Aid (FAFSA) for $name was processed on $date.
What Happens Next
- The student was notified of the status of their application and whether there are any issues that need to be resolved.
- The application information was sent to the school(s) listed on the application.
- The school(s) will use the application information to determine what aid the student may be eligible to receive.
declined the unsubsidized and "PLUS" portions of the loans.
Parents are only eligible for unsubsidized PLUS loans.But the part about requiring parents to become indebted is just wrong. If your parents are just assholes, is there a way around that requirement?
I'm not sure if the parents are unwilling to borrow on the student's behalf, but there is, to some extent, if the parents are unable to. The student is allowed to borrow more. My daughter had to do that her first year at university, because I was turned down for the parent loan. She was able to borrow more, but not as much as I would have borrowed if I had been able. The university had to make an exception to their "all freshmen must live on campus" policy so that she could live at home with her mom, because she couldn't afford to pay for housing.there are resources to tell you how much you can expect to spend for a degree at each college, etc.
When your adult offspring says, "I'm attending college X," you can suggest alternatives, but ultimately your only choice is to either fill out the financial aid application or be an asshole.
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what aid the student may be eligible to receive.
That's what I'm talking about. They send you totals of how much they're willing to loan you, and you can take out less than that once you get the letter, or just sign on the line and take what they give you.
It looks like this: https://www2.ed.gov/policy/highered/guid/aid-offer/sample-aid-offer-2.pdf Though I may have misremebered slightly, as this school automatically gives you the full amount if you don't change it.
Here's an electronic version that lets you easily decline: http://und.edu/admissions/financial-aid/_files/images/photos/award-letter7.gif So it probably changes based on the school
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I don't buy it. People graduating from university with a degree in CS should be at least competent.
The universities should be flunking people that can't do any better than the OP. Some people just are not made out to think in the logical sense that is required for programming. Those people should be doing something else.But one CPA never goes to another and says "Are you using double-entry bookkeeping?" and the other guy goes "What's that? I made my own accounting system."
Want to bet? Government Accounting and Business Accounting are so entirely different that you are supposed to take classes after/outside of college geared towards government accounting....hmmm... does that remind anyone of Scientific Programming vs Business Programming?
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"all freshmen must live on campus"
That is a sin also. Why is that a policy? What function does it serve besides removing housing choice and spreading athlete's foot in the showers?
When your adult offspring says, "I'm attending college X," you can suggest alternatives, but ultimately your only choice is to either fill out the financial aid application or be an asshole.
Regardless, it is still a sin. They already made the loans for all purposes exempt from bankruptcy, they guarantee them through the federal government, they make it possible to garnish everything you have and then they pile on by requiring the parents to co-sign?
Fuck. Them. I decided when my son was born to just not play their game. But, with college costs growing at ~7% per year and 18 years to invest for that means you have to invest $700/child/month with a 7% rate of return. We better be able to cashflow a good chunk of college, because that is a ridiculous amount of money to have to invest. Also, that is not even for a private college.
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Also, why did @redwizard necro a 7 month old post of mine to use as a cross topic link from here? Simply for the sake of notifying me that I needed to read this craptacular 135 post mess? Was it an accident? Did you pick post #52 at random? The contents of my post ( http://what.thedailywtf.com/t/dont-let-physics-majors-masquerading-as-electrical-engineers-code/2136/53 ) on that other topic have nothing to do with this topic, so I don't even.
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My kids may have seen letters like that, but I'm pretty sure I haven't. The only option I can remember is to give the money back after it's been disbursed, by which time my kids' academic enrollment is dependent on having that money. And trying to log into the website of the private company that services the loan on behalf of the Dept. of Education, to see if there are documents available there that I don't remember, I just get a blank white screen half-way through the login process. Yay.
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I just get a blank white screen half-way through the login process. Yay.
See also: www.healthcare.gov
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Some people just are not made out to think in the logical sense that is required for programming. Those people should be doing something else.
QFT. That's the biggest problem I have with Blakey's assertion that programming should be so simple that anyone can do it. Some people just don't think logically.
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My kids may have seen letters like that,
I definitely got the letter myself when I was the student, so that's likely.
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My kids may have seen letters like that, but I'm pretty sure I haven't.
@HardwareGeek's kids: (opens letter with big numbers) "Better not show this to Dad, his heart is weak enough as it is..."
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requiring the parents to co-sign
What I'm talking about is not co-signing my kids' loans. I'm talking about a Parent PLUS loan, which is a separate loan that parents take out in their own names, but which must be used for education-related (e.g., room, board, books, transportation, etc., as well as direct costs such as tuition) by the student.
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Also, why did @redwizard necro a 7 month old post of mine to use as a cross topic link from here? Simply for the sake of notifying me that I needed to read this craptacular 135 post mess? Was it an accident? Did you pick post #52 at random? The contents of my post ( http://what.thedailywtf.com/t/dont-let-physics-majors-masquerading-as-electrical-engineers-code/2136/53 ) on that other topic have nothing to do with this topic, so I don't even.
Complain to Jeff if linking cross-topic results in a Necro, not me. I did not post in that topic, I only linked to it. Taking it one step further, that's analogous to someone on Facebook linking to a post in the topic you started and you being notified of the event. Agree, it's a
either way.EDIT: I'm wrong. See post 158 below.
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QFT. That's the biggest problem I have with Blakey's assertion that programming should be so simple that anyone can do it.
If they're bad at it and/or don't want to do it, fine. I've never asserted that we should force people to learn programming; my argument is just, "stop putting up barriers blocking people from even trying".
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I would want to extend this to college attendees under 26.
Fuck you. I can use my god damn credit responsibly.Granted I have income sorry, I had a switch flipped there for some reason. Blinders went on etc. Not quite sure why.
Like, my mind completely broke and forgot the second part of that sentence was proof of income. It's actually a really good thing and isn't a bad proposal.
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Perhaps I'm suffering a mind block on this, but what would the equivalent of the "open-source community" be in another discipline, such as mechanical engineering or carpentry?
That would be this guy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZ9Xk0Lln5Y
I wouldn't trust the future of toast to him.
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That is a sin also. Why is that a policy? What function does it serve besides removing housing choice and spreading athlete's foot in the showers?
Students who are active in residential life have lower dropout rates
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Students who are active in residential life have lower dropout rates
Fair enough, but at first glance I do not see a causal relationship there. It looks like correlation to me.
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I've never asserted that we should force people to learn programming
I've never thought you were saying that.
@blakeyrat said:"stop putting up barriers blocking people from even trying"
I've always gotten more of a "make it so easy that people can do it even if they're bad at it" (and will continue to do so, producing WTF code, because it's so easy to make something that kinda, sorta works, that they don't realize they're bad at it) vibe from your posts. INB4 "blah blah shoulder aliens blah blah."
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