Hungarian personal income tax reporting software
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@RaceProUK said in Hungarian personal income tax reporting software:
TL;DR: My employer does my taxes, so I don't have to
Well in Hungary, the tax office can do your taxes. It's really simple. You first have to download and install the aforementioned Swing application. Download and install form 15M30 if you are employed and form 15NY31 if you are unemployed. Fill and submit it to request an automatic tax report from the tax office.
Or you can download and install and fill and submit form 1553NY to request a "simplified tax report" that is also made by the tax office. Then they send it to you so that you can look for errors and send it back corrected.
Anyone played The Longest Journey? This reminds me of the police station scene.
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@marczellm
Doing taxes: logon with e-id on portal, look at filled in values for employment, add some more that aren't automated (yet) and send away.
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@Luhmann Mine should be nearly that simple next year. A lot better than is has been, for sure.
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Necro! I started reading this until I realized it was a year ago...Anything improved since then? I TL;DR:'d it.
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@Tsaukpaetra Well last year your only option was 1553NY.
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@Luhmann said in Hungarian personal income tax reporting software:
Doing taxes: logon with e-id on portal, look at filled in values for employment, add some more that aren't automated (yet) and send away
Doing taxes: check the tax code in my payslip
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@marczellm said in Hungarian personal income tax reporting software:
This software is also poorly integrated. The forms you have to fill out are to be downloaded separately and imported. When you are done filling them out, the software encrypts them and saves the encrypted file in the folder you provided during the installation (if you managed to understand what the installer is talking about). Then you have to visit a completely different website, authenticate with your government account, launch another Swing-based applet, this time embedded in the website, and browse for the encrypted files and upload them.
To be fair you don't have to do that in later versions. Downloading and uploading is handled in app.
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For what it's worth, the French system of declarations on-line is done with a web page rather than an app, and it seems to work pretty smoothly.
The
in the French income tax system comes when you pay the taxes. There isn't a proper system of "on the fly" withholding like in the US or PAYE like in the UK. No, you pay the taxes on this year's income next year, but you declare them part way through next year. (Normally around May, with some variation if you declare on-line.) There's an installment plan that starts taking the money (by what amounts to direct debit) in January, so if the predicted monthly turns out to be wrong (which is normal, since it's based on the previous years monthly), there's some fun and games in November and December.And that leads to oddities, like my taxes for 2015, collected in 2016. Well. Sort of. They collected seven months of taxes (January to July) then in August they gave it all back to me without sending me an explanation first.
I mean, it's nice to get money back from the taxman, but when 2000 euros lands in your bank account for no reason from a mystery account that turns out to be the taxman, you start to worry.
So, first, a little background. Tax calculations in France are complicated by their system of "parts". A household gets one part for each of the two "partners" (marriage or PACS - a sort of civil union(1)) plus half a part for each of the first two children and a whole part for each child after. The total taxable income is divided by the number of parts, then the taxes are looked up, and then the result is multiplied back up by the number of parts. The "personal allowance" is applied after the division, so its effect is magnified by the number of parts.
If your household changes the number of parts during the year, you file one return for each period, and the calculations become ... complicated.
So, what happened in 2015? Well, in mid-July, my wife succumbed to a kidney cancer, so in 2016 I duly filed one declaration for January to mid-July at two parts, and one for mid-July to December at one part. And the calculated tax was ... zero. (In the end, I think, the zero was because of the bereavement rather than the divided return, if I understood the tax office person correctly.)
So the tax system didn't know about this until I filed the two declarations in May, and it therefore collected seven months of payments before realising that it shouldn't have done so, so it gave me back the money, and sent me a letter explaining it about three weeks later.
It gets better. Remember I said the predicted payment is based on the previous year's payments? Well, those were zero for 2016-paying-for-2015, so the system tried to predict that 2017-paying-for-2016 would ALSO be zero. I disagreed heavily (in reality, the bill for 2016 was around three times the bill for 2014 because of the effect of losing a part), but I found a way to estimate what the payments would be and tell them to take that much, and thereby give them most of what I would owe them before they decided they wanted it.
(1) In France, marriage and civil union (PACS - PActe Civil de Solidarité) are both open to straight and same-sex couples.
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@steve_the_cynic said in Hungarian personal income tax reporting software:
There isn't a proper system of "on the fly" withholding like in the US or PAYE like in the UK. No, you pay the taxes on this year's income next year, but you declare them part way through next year.
Technically, I think that PAYE is close to that as well, or somewhere in between, or maybe even worse as it almost always has some kind of remainder from older years...
As far as I remember/understand, you are supposed to pay tax on this year's income, but since you cannot know how much you'll earn, the tax code that your employer uses to withdraw taxes from your pay is based on last year's income, and the correct one can only be computed after the end of the (fiscal) year (i.e. end March) to match your actual income. So next year, the tax code is adjusted so that you end up paying more (or less) taxes to cover the difference between the tax code that was used during this year, and what it should have been.
So during year N, you pay taxes based on income from N-1, plus (or minus) a correction so that what you paid in N-1 (based on income from N-2) actually matches what you should have paid in N-1. And in N+1 there will be a correction based on the discrepancy between N-1 and N to correct what you should have paid in N.
France's system looks positively simple in comparison...
@steve_the_cynic said in Hungarian personal income tax reporting software:
Tax calculations in France are complicated by their system of "parts".
Yeah, that's the weird bit, which is intended so that taxes are paid by households and not by individuals (which was a fairly reasonable choice when income tax started, and in line with older taxation systems that people were familiar with). But it does complicate a lot of things, such as the planed move to some sort of PAYE system in a couple of years.
PAYE (in the UK) works mostly OK because most people only have one employer so they necessarily know how much they pay you and therefore there is little confidentiality issue around them knowing your tax bracket (tax code). But when you move to a per-household taxation basis, this means each employer (of a couple) needs to know the income of both (in practice, the tax bracket of the combined two but if you know the scale and the income of one of the two, you easily get the other). So... slightly more fishy.
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Also, I always hear about US'ians having nightmares and spending days with their tax return, is that really that complex?
From what I've seen in EU-land, for the majority of situations where you are employed (even with different employers during the year), have a mortgage, a couple of saving accounts and retirement funds and not much more, tax returns rarely take more than a couple of hours. And nowadays, they are usually pre-filled as most employers and banks will in one way or another communicate with the taxman so they already know what you earned and which boxes to fill in.
In the last few years, filling in the return involved mostly logging into a website and clicking "next" through it, checking that numbers were OK.
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@remi US tax forms are pretty complex. And the tax preparation industry is pretty effective lobbying against the government providing any form-filling automation.
I've been thinking of creating the Income Tax Form Penis Length Thread, where people enumerate the names of the forms they file, but I'd probably intimidate everyone else with my list.
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@remi said in Hungarian personal income tax reporting software:
, is that really that complex?
If you're not interested in getting your Super Maximum Return, then there's a simplified form that only takes an hour or so if you already have everything you need. Otherwise if you're doing deductions and whatnot, you have longer forms and stuff that can take longer, especially if you haven't been judiciously recording everything you're planning on claiming.
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@tsaukpaetra said in Hungarian personal income tax reporting software:
If you're not interested in getting your Super Maximum Return, then there's a simplified form that only takes an hour or so if you already have everything you need. Otherwise if you're doing deductions and whatnot, you have longer forms and stuff that can take longer, especially if you haven't been judiciously recording everything you're planning on claiming.
That's part of what I don't understand, what are all those things you can claim and on which you can get your Super Maximum Return?
Assuming your income is a salary, plus a couple of saving accounts. You also have a mortgage on your house, a couple of retirement funds (401-whatever, or other stuff that most people have -- in the EU most of the time those are tax free so you don't declare them but you may have to declare what you put into them so that it's deducted from your income, if your employer didn't do that). Let's add in one or two children (so some child care etc.), and in case that matters one or 2 cars and a reasonable credit card balance (I don't see why that would matter on your taxes, but who knows?). You can throw in a few charity donations, but for most people that'll likely not be a huge amount (I guess?). And a couple of grands in house maintenance (roofing, painting, maybe a window... usual upkeep jobs that sometimes can get you tax rebates, at least here). Did I forget something significant?
How many forms would you have to fill in for that? Or, somewhat more relevant, how many boxes you would actually fill in all those forms (because a form where you just need to tick one box is much less a problem than one where you have to fill several full pages!)?
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@greybeard said in Hungarian personal income tax reporting software:
US tax forms are pretty complex.
After reading @Steve_The_Cynic and @remi's postings, I'm suddenly thinking we have it easy. **shudder**
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@greybeard said in Hungarian personal income tax reporting software:
@remi US tax forms are pretty complex. And the tax preparation industry is pretty effective lobbying against the government providing any form-filling automation.
I've been thinking of creating the Income Tax Form Penis Length Thread, where people enumerate the names of the forms they file, but I'd probably intimidate everyone else with my list.
It probably has nothing on Germany, though. Thankfully my own case is simple (single, no home owner, steady job income, no special stuff anywhere) so I can get by with online offerings.
As soon as it gets more complicated in any way you better seek the service of a tax accountant. For freelancers its basically a requirement.
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@remi If all you have is a single steady salary, then even adding a mortgage deduction doesn't change much. It's basically one more form to fill out (so 2). If you have a couple incomes, or self-employment income, or any of the more complicated tax arrangements (basically anything other than a single, employer-withholding, regular income)...life isn't so fun.
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@remi For one, the US has two parallel income tax systems: "regular" tax and "alternative minimum" tax. For middle class incomes and above, you have to figure your tax under each system and if the latter is higher than the former you add the difference to a particular line and include it in what you pay.
Then there are situations, involving selling assets where the alternative tax cost basis is higher than the regular tax cost basis, where you get to claim back some of that difference. But you might not be able to claim it back in that year, so you can carry forward the credit to a future year. Of course you have to file a form tracking how many of these carryforward credits there are.
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@remi said in Hungarian personal income tax reporting software:
How many forms would you have to fill in for that?
Well, it's more of a matter of how well you fit the EZ box. If you have lots of snowflake attributes, you get to fill lots of snowflake forms.
Full list:
Forms, Instructions and Publications | Internal Revenue Service
The latest versions of IRS forms, instructions, and publications. View more information about Using IRS Forms, Instructions, Publications and Other Item Files. Click on a column heading to sort the list by the contents of that column.
Also, see the 1040 helper form for the "common" starting point:
Around page 10 it talks about where certain other forms' information goes in this one and a few other related forms.
It's forms mania!
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@tsaukpaetra said in Hungarian personal income tax reporting software:
Around page 10 it talks about where certain other forms' information goes in this one and a few other related forms.
It's forms mania!There's a reason I pay Intuit/H&RBlock/WhoIsThisYearsWinner even tho my taxes are pretty simple. (I'm salaried, have a mortgage, and ... um ... that's about it. Stocks/etc are in a IRA) Oh, and pray they haven't fucked it up.
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@dcon said in Hungarian personal income tax reporting software:
@tsaukpaetra said in Hungarian personal income tax reporting software:
Around page 10 it talks about where certain other forms' information goes in this one and a few other related forms.
It's forms mania!There's a reason I pay Intuit/H&RBlock/WhoIsThisYearsWinner even tho my taxes are pretty simple. (I'm salaried, have a mortgage, and ... um ... that's about it. Stocks/etc are in a IRA) Oh, and pray they haven't fucked it up.
Whoever I used for my 2015 taxes fucked up, because it let me claim some education whatever, but didn't let me provide whatever docs were needed, and when they came after me a few months ago I was like "I have no idea? Um.. well, fuck, there goes $2k....". A few days ago I got a check for $3.55. Apparently I payed a little sooner than they wanted and so they refunded that.
Wankers.
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@tsaukpaetra said in Hungarian personal income tax reporting software:
Also, see the 1040 helper form for the "common" starting point:
[…]
Around page 10
Page 10 of 106… for a helper form…
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@dcon said in Hungarian personal income tax reporting software:
@greybeard said in Hungarian personal income tax reporting software:
US tax forms are pretty complex.
After reading @Steve_The_Cynic and @remi's postings, I'm suddenly thinking we have it easy. **shudder**
Nah, French tax forms are pretty straightforward. Admittedly, I'm in a very simple case (single and employed), but we don't need a 100+ page manual.
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@greybeard said in Hungarian personal income tax reporting software:
@remi For one, the US has two parallel income tax systems: "regular" tax and "alternative minimum" tax.
Oh, I see. Filling forms is fairly easy, but computing the exact tax amount to be paid from what's in the form is always more tricky, so if you have to do those computations using two different systems to pick the best one, I understand how it complicate things.
Although nowadays, the taxman-website gives me the exact tax amount based on the forms I filled (except maybe in very complex cases where a human intervention is required to check some figures), so simulating different cases isn't really difficult.
Then there are situations, involving selling assets where the alternative tax cost basis is higher than the regular tax cost basis, where you get to claim back some of that difference.
How often do these situations arise? If it's only e.g. when selling your house, this shouldn't happen very often for most people (maybe once every 10 years, probably even less than that). If it includes other stuff so that basically it happens every year, I see how that would make things very complex to track.
@benjamin-hall said in Hungarian personal income tax reporting software:
If you have a couple incomes, or self-employment income, or any of the more complicated tax arrangements (basically anything other than a single, employer-withholding, regular income)...life isn't so fun.
Self-employed is always a bit tricky, yes. But even in the US, a quick search tells me that only 10% of the workforce is self-employed, so that leaves 90% who shouldn't have this issue (and apparently the EU average is 15%, so roughly the same or higher!). Couple incomes... does that mean just two incomes for the couple or some sort of special joint income? If the former complicates things that much, yeah, that's going to happen to almost everyone.
@tsaukpaetra said in Hungarian personal income tax reporting software:
Well, it's more of a matter of how well you fit the EZ box. If you have lots of snowflake attributes, you get to fill lots of snowflake forms.
It's the same everywhere (I guess). But that's why what matters really is the situation for most people, i.e. those who don't have many snowflake attributes, or maybe 1 or 2 max. We also have tons of various forms and sub-forms for all special situations, but the main tax return form is fairly simple and covers most of the common cases (like I said, salary, child care, saving accounts...).
@dcon said in Hungarian personal income tax reporting software:
There's a reason I pay Intuit/H&RBlock/WhoIsThisYearsWinner even tho my taxes are pretty simple. (I'm salaried, have a mortgage, and ... um ... that's about it. Stocks/etc are in a IRA) Oh, and pray they haven't fucked it up.
Actually, that's the reason I was asking the question in the first place. Paying someone to do their taxes is, as far as I can see, a very American thing, and not much done elsewhere (it happens, but it's not the norm -- unless you are very rich, of course). And I've always wondered how much of that was a real need for a specialist because of the complexity, and how much was, let's say, marketing success on the part of tax accountants who've managed to make it look like you can't do it without them...
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@khudzlin said in Hungarian personal income tax reporting software:
@dcon said in Hungarian personal income tax reporting software:
@greybeard said in Hungarian personal income tax reporting software:
US tax forms are pretty complex.
After reading @Steve_The_Cynic and @remi's postings, I'm suddenly thinking we have it easy. **shudder**
Nah, French tax forms are pretty straightforward. Admittedly, I'm in a very simple case (single and employed), but we don't need a 100+ page manual.
That's also my feeling. There is a main form for salaried income, saving accounts (including pension funds), child care (actually you don't really have much to fill, each child gives you more "parts" so it just automatically reduces the amount of taxes you pay), charity donation and a few more usual items.
This form is usually pre-filled because my employer(s) communicate the amount they paid me to the taxman, and banks who hold my saving accounts do the same, so all I've got to do is check that the numbers are OK.
In my case, I fill one additional form for accounts in foreign countries (not taxed, but the taxman wants to know what I've got elsewhere so I have to give the account numbers -- it doesn't change from year to year so it's a simple copy-paste!), and when I do some specific repair work on my home I fill another one (energy saving works earn a deduction). And that's about all. I think.
So there are a couple of basic principles (such as the "parts" system) to get the hang of, but afterwards, filling is pretty straightforward.
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@remi said in Hungarian personal income tax reporting software:
Also, I always hear about US'ians having nightmares and spending days with their tax return, is that really that complex?
Depends on how complex your finances are. If your only income is from a job that pays normal wages and you don't do lots of charity donations or other funky things that can change your liability then it is very simple.
If you sell stock or other assets, get dividends, interest income, business income (selling stuff, independent contractor, etc), alimony, rent or other diverse sorts of income then it's a lot more complicated. And if you pass a certain threshold then you need to do the calculation for the alternate minimum tax.
The forms are scary sometimes and you can't figure out what they even really mean and then you're worried about the specter of an audit if you get it wrong. Most ridiculous.
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@dcon said in Hungarian personal income tax reporting software:
@tsaukpaetra said in Hungarian personal income tax reporting software:
Around page 10 it talks about where certain other forms' information goes in this one and a few other related forms.
It's forms mania!There's a reason I pay Intuit/H&RBlock/WhoIsThisYearsWinner even tho my taxes are pretty simple. (I'm salaried, have a mortgage, and ... um ... that's about it. Stocks/etc are in a IRA) Oh, and pray they haven't fucked it up.
I've been using H&R Block's online stuff. It works pretty well and is pretty straightforward.
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@boomzilla said in Hungarian personal income tax reporting software:
@remi said in Hungarian personal income tax reporting software:
Also, I always hear about US'ians having nightmares and spending days with their tax return, is that really that complex?
Depends on how complex your finances are. If your only income is from a job that pays normal wages and you don't do lots of charity donations or other funky things that can change your liability then it is very simple.
If you sell stock or other assets, get dividends, interest income, business income (selling stuff, independent contractor, etc), alimony, rent or other diverse sorts of income then it's a lot more complicated. And if you pass a certain threshold then you need to do the calculation for the alternate minimum tax.
The forms are scary sometimes and you can't figure out what they even really mean and then you're worried about the specter of an audit if you get it wrong. Most ridiculous.
Yeah. Any number of W2 (standard employee) incomes and no itemized deductions (mortgage interest, charity, etc) make a very easy tax season. Non-W2 income is a mess. Itemized deductions are a pain, but not really hard.
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Netherlands:
I've never done my tax on paper, since I've only been doing my own tax for 10 years and it's been digital for at least 20. Up to a few years ago this was an application you had to download, they very recently moved to the web.
I know back in the nineties there were third-party tax filing applications, which were better at picking up certain rare deductions than the official one. If the US system is so complicated, I'm surprised nothing like that ever popped up?
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@pleegwat said in Hungarian personal income tax reporting software:
Netherlands:
I've never done my tax on paper, since I've only been doing my own tax for 10 years and it's been digital for at least 20. Up to a few years ago this was an application you had to download, they very recently moved to the web.
I know back in the nineties there were third-party tax filing applications, which were better at picking up certain rare deductions than the official one. If the US system is so complicated, I'm surprised nothing like that ever popped up?There are plenty of online/offline tax preparation packages. The big issue that electronic filing (which is reasonably recent) is restricted to people with preparer IDs (basically professionals) and to online packages that only handle the very simplest cases. So your options for a complicated form are either do it on paper, maybe with software assist or hiring a professional.
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@remi said in Hungarian personal income tax reporting software:
Although nowadays, the taxman-website gives me the exact tax amount based on the forms I filled (except maybe in very complex cases where a human intervention is required to check some figures), so simulating different cases isn't really difficult.
As I mentioned previously, the tax preparation industry is effective in preventing the government from creating such things.
How often do these situations arise?
That particular situation is admittedly a bit in the weeds. It relates to Incentive Stock Options, which aren't common generally, just among people who work for tech startups. ISOs are taxable in different years under the two income tax systems.
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@greybeard said in Hungarian personal income tax reporting software:
@remi said in Hungarian personal income tax reporting software:
Although nowadays, the taxman-website gives me the exact tax amount based on the forms I filled (except maybe in very complex cases where a human intervention is required to check some figures), so simulating different cases isn't really difficult.
As I mentioned previously, the tax preparation industry is effective in preventing the government from creating such things.
That's what I am currently assuming. They seem also very successful at making people believe that they can't do their taxes themselves, although everything I've heard points to that not really being much more complicated than in the rest of the world, where "tax preparation" is almost unheard of.
Also, I would not be surprised if somewhere deep in the rabbit hole there was an idea by some people that the IRS having a usable database/website would somehow violate the second amendment. Or maybe the fifth, or the twelfth, or the forty-second (but not the 18th, given how much alcohol tax-filling must require). But that's for the
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@benjamin-hall said in Hungarian personal income tax reporting software:
@pleegwat said in Hungarian personal income tax reporting software:
Netherlands:
I've never done my tax on paper, since I've only been doing my own tax for 10 years and it's been digital for at least 20. Up to a few years ago this was an application you had to download, they very recently moved to the web.
I know back in the nineties there were third-party tax filing applications, which were better at picking up certain rare deductions than the official one. If the US system is so complicated, I'm surprised nothing like that ever popped up?There are plenty of online/offline tax preparation packages. The big issue that electronic filing (which is reasonably recent) is restricted to people with preparer IDs (basically professionals) and to online packages that only handle the very simplest cases. So your options for a complicated form are either do it on paper, maybe with software assist or hiring a professional.
That (bolded) is absolutely false. As I've said, I use H&R Block's website version and it has a ton of very much not simple stuff.
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@boomzilla said in Hungarian personal income tax reporting software:
@benjamin-hall said in Hungarian personal income tax reporting software:
@pleegwat said in Hungarian personal income tax reporting software:
Netherlands:
I've never done my tax on paper, since I've only been doing my own tax for 10 years and it's been digital for at least 20. Up to a few years ago this was an application you had to download, they very recently moved to the web.
I know back in the nineties there were third-party tax filing applications, which were better at picking up certain rare deductions than the official one. If the US system is so complicated, I'm surprised nothing like that ever popped up?There are plenty of online/offline tax preparation packages. The big issue that electronic filing (which is reasonably recent) is restricted to people with preparer IDs (basically professionals) and to online packages that only handle the very simplest cases. So your options for a complicated form are either do it on paper, maybe with software assist or hiring a professional.
That (bolded) is absolutely false. As I've said, I use H&R Block's website version and it has a ton of very much not simple stuff.
Ah. I had been told otherwise, but since this will be my first year actually itemizing, I'd never tested it out. Good to know.
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@greybeard said in Hungarian personal income tax reporting software:
@remi said in Hungarian personal income tax reporting software:
Although nowadays, the taxman-website gives me the exact tax amount based on the forms I filled (except maybe in very complex cases where a human intervention is required to check some figures), so simulating different cases isn't really difficult.
As I mentioned previously, the tax preparation industry is effective in preventing the government from creating such things.
I think that's actually a minor part of it. Much bigger is that each deduction or whatever has its own constituency and is a major component of how Congresscritters make various people happy. The prep industry just needs overall complexity, but each of the things is basically someone's rice bowl.
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@boomzilla said in Hungarian personal income tax reporting software:
Much bigger is that each deduction or whatever has its own constituency and is a major component of how Congresscritters make various people happy.
Yes, that's why every time, almost anywhere in the world, a governement tries to remove "useless deductions", it fails. They can clean up deductions one by one, as each one will only get a small opposition, but removing even just one takes time (to pass the law etc.) and only has a very marginal impact in the end so it's not really useful, and as soon as they try to remove several ones in a go, the small support groups of each deduction add up and quickly become too large to ignore, and as a result nothing is done.
Therefore, any attempt to clean up tax codes is forever doomed.
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Now they've written a web replacement for the entire app. Of course it has to look modern, so the fonts are as big as possible.
My mum did her tax report on the Swing app then tried to upload from the app. That functionality doesn't work anymore. Then we tried to upload to the new web interface but it threw XSD errors.
After throwing invalid content-type errors because their XML file has a .kr extension but the browser doesn't recognize that as XML and sends it as application/octet-stream.
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@boomzilla said in Hungarian personal income tax reporting software:
That (bolded) is absolutely false. As I've said, I use H&R Block's website version and it has a ton of very much not simple stuff.
Even in the free version, or just the paid-for version?
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@unperverted-vixen I think the free version is only the 1040EZ. Not sure. I've always used some paid version.
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@marczellm Support replied, pointing out the third possible way of exporting an XML from the desktop app.
Some months later my mother got an email saying the two versions of her tax report (the one the desktop app uploaded while giving no confirmation of it like it used to, and the one exported from there and uploaded on the web app) do not match up and she has to go to their offices in person.
Now I received a Drive folder of 29 job openings at the company that made the web app. Word docs written in Hungarian. Here's a few things they mention:
- Hibernate, Eclipse, JSF, GlassFish, Oracle DB, PL-SQL
- DOJO on the frontend
- Solaris, RedHat, Suse Linux (they mention VMWare ESXi as an OS)
- MQ Series
- The Data Warehouse maintainer has to "install several 10s of new program versions a day"
- Badly written stuff such as "Senior JAVA frontend/WebDesign developer: JAVA Script development"
Nyitott pozíciók - Pillér Kft. - Google Drive