Hungarian personal income tax reporting software



  • Minor wtfs here. The software that everyone must use to report taxes in Hungary is a Java/Swing application, presumably to remain cross-platform. Here is a walkthrough:

    Visit http://www.nav.gov.hu/nav/letoltesek/nyomtatvanykitolto_programok/nyomtatvany_apeh/keretprogramok/abevjava_install.html. The site already loads the "Java Deployment Toolkit" in a hidden <embed>, for no obvious reason. The download link launches a JNLP app with the Java Web Start Launcher.

    This application is an "installer" written in Java. It asks for three paths, one for binaries, one for data, and one for files ready to send to the server, and unzips its stuff there. Regular users already get lost here.

    Now let's take a look at the shortcut the installer just created in my Start Menu.

    Erm... a batch file? Let's take a look at that bin folder.

    What we can see is not only a bunch of Windows batch files, but also quite some VBScript. A look into these script reveals a pleasant surprise: our old friend On Error Resume Next. What's more, the scripts are seemingly invoked by the Java application, as I couldn't find any reference to them in the batch files but at least one of them is obviously executed during program startup. Now I didn't check whether this installer unzips a set of shell scripts when ran on Linux but this is interesting anyway.

    This software is also poorly integrated. The forms you have to fill out are to be downloaded separately and imported. When you are done filling them out, the software encrypts them and saves the encrypted file in the folder you provided during the installation (if you managed to understand what the installer is talking about). Then you have to visit a completely different website, authenticate with your government account, launch another Swing-based applet, this time embedded in the website, and browse for the encrypted files and upload them.



  • +1 good WTF



  • Which is more WTFy, this program or the Hungarian tax code?

    Gah...started my taxes the other night...haven't finished yet.



  • You're in "My First Computer" mode?



  • @Medinoc said:

    You're in "My First Computer" mode?

    Excuse me?



  • I started on my taxes Sunday night, but then realized I'd drunk like 3 beers and I should probably do my taxes sober. I need to get back to it...


  • Grade A Premium Asshole

    @blakeyrat said:

    I should probably do my taxes sober

    Where's your sense of adventure?

    Also, if you are going to end up owing, I would suggest doing them while drunk to soften the blow.



  • @boomzilla said:

    Gah...started my taxes the other night...haven't finished yet.

    @blakeyrat said:
    I started on my taxes Sunday night, but then realized I'd drunk like 3 beers and I should probably do my taxes sober. I need to get back to it...

    Gotta love PAYE

    TL;DR: My employer does my taxes, so I don't have to :smile:

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  • @RaceProUK said:

    Gotta love PAYE

    TL;DR: My employer does my taxes, so I don't have to

    My employer withholds taxes, too, but never the correct amount. Of course, how do they know about my deductions and other income and etc. Still have to file to get that right.



  • @RaceProUK said:

    TL;DR: My employer does my taxes, so I don't have to

    How do they know about your investment income?



  • @blakeyrat said:

    How do they know about your investment income?

    Because I will have had to declare it somewhere. And since I don't have any, there's nothing to declare.

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  • @RaceProUK said:

    Because I will have had to declare it somewhere.

    And you're ok just giving that information to your employer?



  • Tax season started here on 1 March. Predictably, major news outlets indicated the website was down. I'll do mine next weekend.

    Employer deducts tax (amost all employers here are required to), but they don't account for deductions so I'll end up getting a nice return in May-June.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    And you're ok just giving that information to your employer?

    I already told you, I have nothing to declare in that respect.

    Which also means I don't know where I'd declare it, so…

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  • @RaceProUK said:

    I already told you, I have nothing to declare in that respect.

    I'm trying to gauge your strange Euro-attitudes, not trying to give you practical advice.

    If you had, let's say, 100,000 pounds of investment income this year, would you feel comfortable informing your employer of it?



  • I'm not sure, but I think legally, I'd have to. I'll have to double-check; tax law isn't my specialist subject.

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  • @RaceProUK said:

    I'm not sure, but I think legally, I'd have to.

    So you literally cannot file your own taxes independent of your employer, even if you wanted to?

    EDIT: anyway, you can have employers in the US withhold money on your behalf for taxes also, but it's not required (and IMO isn't a good idea-- it typically results in you giving the Government a free loan).

    Or you can pay on your own, but then the problem is that taxes are due (in theory) pro-rated each quarter-- but there's no way to know what you'll end up owing until year-end. The IRS fortunately has rules for how to pro-rate based on your last year's return, so it's not entirely asking you to do an impossible task.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @RaceProUK said:

    TL;DR: My employer and HMRC fuck up does my taxes, so I don't have to

    First few years of self assessment, both my employer and HMRC between them managed via a mixture of applying a wrong tax code, and miscalculating the tax due on that incorrect code, during the tax-years I paid too much tax.

    Got about £2,000 in rebates.

    I've got the whole SA down to about ½-¾ hr to fill out the whole form online.

    @blakeyrat said:

    And you're ok just giving that information to your employer?

    HMRC are the ones that it has to be declared to (via self-assessment/declaration depending on amount,) if tax hasn't been deducted at source, or the incorrect amount had been deducted (typically/usually if the recipient was in a higher tax-band than was assumed.)



  • From that Wikipedia page, it's possible (and may be necessary):

    PAYE is applied to sick pay, maternity pay, directors' fees and pensions (but not the state pension), as well as wages and salaries. Because the tax code reflects other income (including the state pension), the PAYE system typically results in the correct amount of tax being paid on all the income of a taxpayer, making a tax return redundant. However, if the taxpayer's affairs are complicated, a tax return may be required to determine the amount of tax payable or refundable.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    So you literally cannot file your own taxes independent of your employer, even if you wanted to?

    As far as I am aware, no; it all goes through PAYE.
    Looks like @PJH is the guy to talk to though, since he's done the self-assessment (which I think is separate to PAYE).

    Edit: Double Hanzo'd.

    And, apparently, unable to read the Wikipedia pages I link to.

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  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @RaceProUK said:

    since he's done the self-assessment (which I think is separate to PAYE).

    Self assessment is your whole income/tax affairs including any PAYE (technically just income tax - NI doesn't feature on the SA.) that's been deducted.



  • Ok quit with the undefined acronyms.

    @PJH said:

    HMRC

    I'll ass-pull this means something like "Her Majesty's Revenue C...ontrol? Collection? Crap?"

    @PJH said:

    NI doesn't feature on the SA.

    SA is Self-Assessment, but I have absolutely no idea what NI is.



  • @RaceProUK said:

    As far as I am aware, no; it all goes through PAYE.

    You have a lot of faith in your Government, Because goddamned, man. You're not even double-checking these idiots? From PJH's post, it sounds like your tax collectors are just as likely to fuck-up as our IRS (that's Internal Revenue Service, although it's not really a service) is.

    (I've been over-billed by the IRS for $6000. Not making that up. It turns out they did the math wrong because one of my investments sent them a 1099 with wrong math and basically everybody fucked up the calculation except me.)



  • @blakeyrat said:

    what NI is.

    Based on looking at the wiki page, I'd guess National Insurance, whatever that is.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    "Her Majesty's Revenue C...ontrol? Collection? Crap?"

    Revenue and Customs. Google answers that on the first hit.

    NI is too vague to google.

    And Hanzo'd...


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    I have no doubt you actually know these terms and/or perfectly able to use Google to determine them, and are merely being your usually unagreeable self, but I'll play along.

    Her Majesties Revenue and Customs - the government department responsible for collecting all taxes

    Self Assessment - the precess by which you declare to HMRC all your income and declare on pain of presecution that you've paid all applicable taxes

    National Insurance - Income tax in all but name, and applicable rates, ostensibly pays for future pension (actually entitlement to it), the NHS (National Health Service before you start on that one) and any unemployment you may be entitled to. In practice it just ends up in the central pot like the Income Tax.



  • @HardwareGeek said:

    NI is too vague to google.

    @boomzilla said:
    Based on looking at the wiki page, I'd guess National Insurance, whatever that is.

    It's basically how the NHS is funded. It's probably more complicated than that, but that explanation will do for now.
    @blakeyrat said:
    You have a lot of faith in your Government, Because goddamned, man. You're not even double-checking these idiots? From PJH's post, it sounds like your tax collectors are just as likely to fuck-up as our IRS (that's Internal Revenue Service, although it's not really a service) is.

    Well, every time they've fucked up, they've picked up on it themselves and sent me a nice cheque for a couple hundred, so I don't mind that much :smile:
    Plus I get an annual tax statement (form P60 IIRC).

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  • Around here we have PADRE which is also yet another Java/Swing desktop application so ugly and wrong that makes filling your tax forms even more painful.

    Representative image



  • Not here at least. Income tax is deducted by all, or almost all, employers, but nothing else. If you have deductions, you can apply for early return with monthly payments. Then at year-end, you may or may not be required to file your taxes; you are required at least if you applied for early return, or if you're a home owner.

    If your final filing results in you having to pay €1 or more, and you are required to file, you have to pay. If you are not required to file but decided to fill it in anyway, it will tell you before you upload your stuff.

    If your final filing results in you having paid too much, then if it is above a certain threshold, you will be refunded. If it is below that threshold (used to be ƒ26, which works out around €12) it's your loss.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @RaceProUK said:

    It's basically how the NHS is funded.

    It really isn't.



  • @PJH said:

    I have no doubt you actually know these terms and/or perfectly able to use Google to determine them, and are merely being your usually unagreeable self, but I'll play along.

    I honestly had no idea what NI stood for, and based on context I assumed it was something like "investment income". (The I could easily be investment.)

    I had no idea your NI was a separate tax from income tax. It sounds like the equivalent to our Social Security tax. Except rolled-in with Unemployment Tax (which is assessed separately in the US) and we don't have the healthcare stuff generally-speaking. I think some States do, but not Washington State.



  • @RaceProUK said:

    Well, every time they've fucked up, they've picked up on it themselves and sent me a nice cheque for a couple hundred, so I don't mind that much

    Right; but the check should have been a couple thousand, and you have no idea.



  • Accompanying the cheque is a breakdown of how they arrived at the figure, so I know it's correct.

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  • @PleegWat said:

    Not here at least.

    Where is "here"?

    @PleegWat said:

    If it is below that threshold (used to be ƒ26, which works out around €12) it's your loss.

    Somewhere that used to have florins and now has Euros, that narrows it down...

    Would be nice if people just communication information instead of mysteries.



  • @RaceProUK said:

    Accompanying the cheque is a breakdown of how they arrived at the figure, so I know it's correct.

    Because you double-checked their figures, or because you took it on blind faith?



  • Netherlands. Thought that was commonly known, sorry.



  • @RaceProUK said:

    Which also means I don't know where I'd declare it, so…

    You'd fill in paperwork to the tax people. Then they'd take some money from you.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    Because you double-checked their figures, or because you took it on blind faith?

    I didn't work it out to the penny, but I did make sure the figures made sense. Which they did.

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  • @RaceProUK said:

    Accompanying the cheque is a breakdown of how they arrived at the figure, so I know it's correct.

    Fuck that. It's HMRC. I'd double check it. I've been over taxed several times with no handy "Oh we fucked up here's some money" cheque.



  • Ok that un-explains it, because before the Euro the Netherlands used the Guilder but apparently used the abbreviation for the Florin? WTF is wrong with Europe.



  • @RaceProUK said:

    I didn't work it out to the penny, but I did make sure the figures made sense. Which they did.

    I guess the UK never had an equivalent to P. T. Barnum.



  • From wikipedia: The name 'Gulden' originates from 'Gulden florijn', which translated to 'golden florin'. The name of the coin evolved but the symbol ƒ and abbreviation fl (or sometimes HFL) stuck around.


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @blakeyrat said:

    +1 good WTF

    Would you say you liked the post?

    because talking about tax is boring



  • @PJH said:

    It really isn't.

    Yeah, looks like other stuff:

    £ billions (2012/13
    Retirement pensions (including Christmas bonus) 79.321
    Widows'/Bereavement benefits 0.571
    Incapacity Benefit 2.591
    Unemployment benefit & support 3.463
    Maternity allowance & guardians allowance 0.373
    Administrative costs & transfers 4.693
    Total 91.012 84.263



  • Stupid widows get all the breaks!

    EDIT: wait, retired people get bonuses? Based on their performance at retirement? "Hey Bob, you weren't very good at being retired this quarter. You didn't meet your retirement goals. So I'm afraid you're only going to get half of your bonus."


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @boomzilla said:

    Yeah, looks like other stuff:

    The problem is that politicians deliberately obfuscate and conflate National Insurance with the NHS. For example as recently as this month the Offficial Opposition had this to say (this is their own website):

    Labour MP Frank Field has renewed calls to raise National Insurance (NI) contributions in order to fund the NHS. In a pamphlet for Policy Network co-written with Patrick Diamond and Jonathan Todd, the authors warn that the NHS “will cease to exist as we have known it since it came into being in 1948″ unless new ways are found to finance it. The pamphlet suggests raising NI by 1p could raise around £1bn a year.

    Of course the exact same thing could be done by raising Income Tax by 1p. But that'd be perceived as less popular (why? fuck knows. I'm all for the government spending less to begin with.)

    And merging Income Tax and National insurance, which has also been raised, is also perceived as unpopular, since headline tax rates would reach 32.8% (20% IT + 12.8% NI) and 52.8% (40%, 12.8%) for the majority, and the sheeple would realise how much is being taken off them.



  • @PJH said:

    The pamphlet suggests raising NI by 1p could raise around £1bn a year.

    ... how?!

    Unless they mean 1p a day, how would that add-up?


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @blakeyrat said:

    EDIT: wait, retired people get bonuses? Based on their performance at retirement?

    s/bonus/present/.

    Why it's called that I've no idea, and it's it's not changed in absolute value in the 4 decades since it was introduced, when back then it was worth 10 times what it is today. (~$150 then vs $15 now.)



  • @blakeyrat said:

    Unless they mean 1p a day, how would that add-up?

    The UK has 29.3 million taxpayers, all paying NI. Assuming 1p a day, that's…
    *hedgehog maths*
    £107 million.

    Something's not right…

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  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @blakeyrat said:

    ... how?!

    Unless they mean 1p a day, how would that add-up?

    Another obfuscatory tactic. What they mean is raise the marginal NI rate from 12% (on wages above a certain amount) to 13%.

    Or, to put it in their parlance, an extra 1p in the pound. Which they shorten to '1p'.


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