Jeffed Car Talk - Now with Trainwrecks, Formerly with Manual Gearboxes
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Not on the maintenance schedules for my (manually transmitted) cars.
Borne out by experience: 3 cars - 550k miles driven - no clutches.
You got an average of 183k miles out of a clutch?
Bullshit.
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expensive clutch replacement in the maintenance schedule
Yeah… that's just bullshit. No car I've ever owned (all of them manuals) have had clutch replacements as part of their servicing schedule. A modern clutch should last the life of the car unless you abuse it.
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INB4 @blakeyrat calls @ijij a moron.
Oh wait, INB4 @blakeyrat calls @raceprouk a moron also!With that out of the way:
Anyone can self-service a given car part that has no electronics in it. However, to deal with car parts that have electronics, you need special diagnostic tools ($$$). Also, typically, if something's wrong with the electronics, then you need to replace them (more $$$); you can't just repair the fucking thing.
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A modern clutch should last the life of the car unless you abuse it.
Or if there's an exacerbating fault elsewhere. Only recently had to replace a clutch, but it's a costly job, one worth shopping around for if you need it done; the dealer will gouge you for it.
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A modern clutch should last the life of the car unless you abuse it.
What do you consider "the life of the car"?
Given, the last manual I had was a 1996 model before I threw away that bullshit junk and started buying automatics, but at that time it was very very rare for any clutch to last longer than 120k miles, max. The real, practical, number was somewhere between 75k and 100k. 183k is bullshit. Utter fantasy-land.
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What do you consider "the life of the car"?
Until it becomes uneconomical to repair. Well-maintained, that could be 200k miles without much difficulty. And there are some cars out there that have a million miles on the odo.
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You got an average of 183k miles out of a clutch?
Bullshit.
Minimum.
Got rid of the first two at 163k and 180k, my third is on 230k. No clutches.
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Well-maintained, that could be 200k miles without much difficulty.
Not on the original clutch.
And there are some cars out there that have a million miles on the odo.
Well duh.
But not on the original clutch.
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Then I can only assume you (used to) abuse clutches
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Minimum.
Got rid of the first two at 163k and 180k, my third is on 230k. No clutches.
Ok. The numbers are slightly more specific, but I still don't believe you.
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Then by that logic, everybody "abuses" clutches. If that's how you want to see the world, fine. Knock yourself out.
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You're the only one who seems to think 80k miles for a clutch is acceptable
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clutch replacement in the maintenance schedule
let's see.
http://www.clarks-garage.com/shop-manual/maint-01.htm - no clutch replacement mentioned
I expect maintenance schedules will differ between manufacturers and cars, though probably broadly similar, but let's check some other results to be sure:http://cars.lovetoknow.com/Toyota_Corolla_Maintenance_Schedule - no clutch replacement mentioned
- no clutch replacement mentioned
...I could go check more but I can't be bothered. If your mechanic is telling you you need your clutch replaced every 80k miles, I think they might be a crook. Or maybe it was a great many years ago that you were told this and perhaps it was true at the time? Or perhaps you're thinking of changing the transmission fluid, which does need doing at certain intervals?
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How Long Does a Clutch Last?
Treat your clutch with respect and it'll reward you with years of motoring enjoyment. Treat it poorly and the lifetime of your clutch is greatly reduced. Do you know the average lifetime of a clutch?
Auto mechanics at dealerships and private firms, like AAMCO, for example, give differing estimates for the average lifetime of a clutch on an average car such as a Nissan Sentra, some estimating it as low as 20,000 to 50,000 miles (32,187 to 80,467 kilometers) and others estimating it at more than 100,000 miles (160,934 kilometers), but this depends on how carefully you use your clutch. It also depends on how hot the climate is and on the type of car you drive. If you live in a hot climate, the transmission fluid will typically run hot and tend to burn out the parts more quickly.
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You're the only one who seems to think 80k miles for a clutch is acceptable
No, I don't. That's why I don't buy manuals anymore. The other reason is I like fuel economy, and as it turns out: oops, there's no such thing as a manual hybrid.
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Whoever wrote that How Stuff Works article, I believe him a lot more than ijijijiji. For one thing, it sounds like he actually talked to a few mechanics.
That said, none of this supports lolwhat's idiotic assertion in the first place. Even if the clutch lasts 180k miles, his assertion is still wrong and idiot until he provides some evidence of it.
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To go with all the evidence of scheduled replacements you've liberally spread throughout the thread?
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Still not what Blakey said, he said it was in the maintenance schedule to be replaced at 80k miles whether it had worn out already or not.
And if the estimate truly differs that wildly then it's hardly a useful estimate, it'll just wear out when it does. I would incline towards a suspicion that clutches have occasionally with remarkable abuse worn out in 20k and that mechanics advising any of the lower end of those figures as the lifetime of a clutch are crooks, but who knows.
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Correct.
Still not what Blakey said, he said it was in the maintenance schedule to be replaced at 80k miles whether it had worn out already or not.
Whatever. I was wrong.
The point is: it's a part that regularly has to be replaced on manuals and does not on automatics. And the replacement is usually pretty damned pricy.
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You got an average of 183k miles out of a clutch?
Bullshit.
The one clutch I ever had to have replaced was, IIRC, around the 120k mark. A lot of that was in heavy commute traffic where I was riding the clutch constantly. Absent that, 180k wouldn't surprise me.
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I've known more people with burned-out automatic transmissions than manuals. Guess what part usually fails in automatics? The clutches.
Filed Under: Trolling While True
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I wouldn't say it has to be regularly replaced, but it's a part that can get worn out if you're not careful with it thus an extra expense in case it does wear out.
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Autos do have clutches. They serve a totally different purpose though, in an auto they are used to lock and unlock shafts from each other to adjust the gear ratio. And an auto has a whole bunch of clutches.
If you've ever known someone with an auto that couldn't go into reverse, or couldn't go into 2nd or whatever, it's because the clutches for that gear are burned out.
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Whatever. I was wrong.
The point is
FTFYBesides, the balance of the evidence I've seen is that you're still probably wrong.
[EDIT: probably]
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You know at this point, whatever. There's so much bullshit piled here now that lolwhat's never gonna come back and back-up his ridiculous assertion so I just declare I win this one.
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Last word.
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I just declare I win this one
Does Cloud Cuckoo Land have nice weather this time of year?
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Autos do have clutches. They serve a totally different purpose though, in an auto they are used to lock and unlock shafts from each other to adjust the gear ratio. And an auto has a whole bunch of clutches.
Somewhat. Most automatics have two or three clutches and they perform pretty much the same task that a clutch in a manual performs.
The clutches in an auto are usually bathed in transmission fluid, helping them last longer. Manual clutches are outside the transmission housing.
By far the biggest expense in replacing a clutch is getting to it. This makes clutch jobs on different types are cars wildly variable in price. On some cars, you have to remove the engine and transmission. On others, it's an easy job.
Manual transmissions break more often than automatic transmissions. You can break a manual by shifting it wrong or abusing it. Pretty much the only way to break an automatic is to have one with a defect.
Also, some automatic transmissions are mechanically identical to manual transmissions only they are computer operated. On the other end of the spectrum is a continuously variable transmission. This is a completely different animal that is much more reliable than a manual transmission due to the entire lack of shifting, which is what puts most of the mechanical stress on transmissions.
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Engine braking is good for slowly decelerating or for holding speed going downhill. Most other times it's a bad idea. Not because of any wear issue, but because you are only braking with one, or maybe two wheels if you have a limited slip differential.
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There's possibly some confusion around manual vs automatic when some "automatic" gearboxes are actually just electronically controlled manual gearboxes, like the VW DSG box. That's got two clutches.
Tiptronic gearbox - that's automatic, that's got a clutch.
Audi multitronic gearbox - that's automatic, that's got a clutch.CVT doesn't need a clutch. The manual has a clutch but an automatic does not argument stands there.
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I have two cars, manual, owned since new. 270 000 km on one, 470 000 km on the other. No clutch replacements; not even in the service programme. I don't know where you invent your shit from, but the facts do not match your fantasy.
I have owned one automatic, gearbox started acting up on that one after 10 000 km...
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Manual transmissions break more often than automatic transmissions.
Really? I find that hard to believe without data.
@Jaime said:You can break a manual by shifting it wrong or abusing it.
You can break an automatic by abusing it.
@Jaime said:Pretty much the only way to break an automatic is to have one with a defect.
See above.
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I think the point is that it's far easier to abuse a manual transmission by just @CodingHorrorBot
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@dstopia Is Doing It Wrong™
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You can break an automatic by abusing it.
You would have to be actively trying to break it. Some manual transmissions can be broken by just engaging a gear too slowly. A bad driver in a manual goes through clutches much faster than a good driver.
@Jaime said:
Manual transmissions break more often than automatic transmissions.
Really? I find that hard to believe without data.
Look at the Subaru WRX community. I have an automatic transmission that I pulled out of a WRX that I can't give away because no one with an auto needs one. However, you can sell a manual transmission in hours because someone always needs one.
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Look at the Subaru WRX community. I have an automatic transmission that I pulled out of a WRX that I can't give away because no one with an auto needs one. However, you can sell a manual transmission in hours because someone always needs one.
Our anecdotes can beat up your anecdotes. TRWTF is that you think the WRX community is representative of the general population.
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Maybe all that hill assist is breaking the transmissions.
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TRWTF is that you think the WRX community is representative of the general population.
Just the opposite. It's a great example that people who beat on cars eat manual transmissions, but autos are nearly immune to their abuse.
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Just the opposite. It's a great example that people who beat on cars eat manual transmissions, but autos are nearly immune to their abuse.
But that doesn't say anything about the people who don't beat on cars, otherwise known as the general population.
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In order to show something how strong something is, you have to subject it to enough stress to find the failure point. The 17 year olds that buy old WRXs graciously volunteered to do the testing for us. They found that automatic transmissions are as tough as blocks of iron, but are hard to do burn-outs with. So, they buy manual transmissions by the ton.
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The synchro was probably weak already; it would have failed at some point
Dealing with weak synchros is something that really grinds my gears.
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the WRX community is representative of the general population.
My observations usually consisted of them weaving between traffic at 90MPH with fartcans blaring.
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In order to show something how strong something is, you have to subject it to enough stress to find the failure point. The 17 year olds that buy old WRXs graciously volunteered to do the testing for us. They found that automatic transmissions are as tough as blocks of iron, but are hard to do burn-outs with. So, they buy manual transmissions by the ton.
When the car salesman opened up the hood of my current car, he explained that the (automatic) transmission was sealed, good for 200k miles, and "they don't want you touching it." Considering that this same transmission is used in some of their heavy trucks and SUVs, and that some of the performance shops have found the torque converter to be good for 500+ RWHP, I'm inclined to believe him.
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I see it, too, but I don't have to like it.
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And if the estimate truly differs that wildly then it's hardly a useful estimate, it'll just wear out when it does. I would incline towards a suspicion that clutches have occasionally with remarkable abuse worn out in 20k and that mechanics advising any of the lower end of those figures as the lifetime of a clutch are crooks, but who knows.
AKA the clutch-a-month club ;) Do we need to invite Blakey?
Still not what Blakey said, he said it was in the maintenance schedule to be replaced at 80k miles whether it had worn out already or not.
Which is rather silly -- why couldn't they put a squealy wear indicator in the clutch just like they do with disc brakes? Of course, you'd need to make it a distinct squeal from the one the brakes make when they wear out, but still -- it beats the pants off telling folks to go have a clutch job done on a regular schedule even if they know what they're doing with a stickshift!
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Which is rather silly -- why couldn't they put a squealy wear indicator in the clutch just like they do with disc brakes?
Even the most incompetent driver should be able to tell when the clutch is worn.
