WTF ETF Penny Stocks



  • Status: Anybody here really knowledgeable about penny stocks? I have some questions I'd like to PM someone about.


  • Impossible Mission Players - A

    You'll get a better ROI by just investing in transferring a bunch of Bitcoin to me undefined



  • |_| <-- you can put your penny stock money there. Then I can do this

    |$|
     _
    |$|

    |_| <-- my pocket

    This way the money isn't going to a guy who's just pumping and dumping.



  • Sigh. It wasn't a penny stock when I bought it.

    I just want to know why there is significant trade activity after the company announced bankruptcy and has no plans to pay outstanding shares.

    To go into more specifics than that, I need an expert in a PM.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    I just want to know why there is significant trade activity after the company announced bankruptcy and has no plans to pay outstanding shares.

    Sounds like some fraud going on somewhere.


  • Grade A Premium Asshole

    @blakeyrat said:

    I just want to know why there is significant trade activity after the company announced bankruptcy and has no plans to pay outstanding shares.

    It is probably just people trying to make money off the volatility of the price. Even though it is a penny stock now, a few cents change equates to a large percentage of price change. That is all you need to make money, a change in price.



  • Sorry for buttuming :(

    WTF this works on save but not edit. It also flickered during save between : and :



  • @boomzilla said:

    Sounds like some fraud going on somewhere.

    Possibly, that or people figure it actually has more assets then needed to pay creditors so it's a chance to pick up a share of them upon final dissolution.



  • @locallunatic said:

    Possibly, that or people figure it actually has more assets then needed to pay creditors so it's a chance to pick up a share of them upon final dissolution.

    The press release they put out said they wouldn't be paying-off share owners.

    Someone "adopting" this stock for a pump-and-dump might make sense, but I'm not sure there's ENOUGH activity to account for that.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    The press release they put out said they wouldn't be paying-off share owners.

    People into speculation can make silly choices or have strange beliefs (I've seen people assume things like "they are saying no money left so they can grab it themselves", I tried not to laugh too hard when they lost on that).

    @blakeyrat said:

    Someone "adopting" this stock for a pump-and-dump might make sense, but I'm not sure there's ENOUGH activity to account for that.

    A good portion of the spam I get is for exactly this kind of thing, so it's probably what this is. Drumming up activity when the reported on market has been hitting records probably isn't hard when so many people know nothing about investing.



  • @locallunatic said:

    (I've seen people assume things like "they are saying no money left so they can grab it themselves", I tried not to laugh to hard when they lost on that).

    WTF that isn't even LEGAL. Not to mention the 478,000 other reasons it's dumb.

    @locallunatic said:

    A good portion of the spam I get is for exactly this kind of thing, so it's probably what this is. Drumming up activity when the reported on market has been hitting records probably isn't hard when so many people know nothing about investing.

    To give you an idea, I own over 1,000 shares. This morning, after weeks of virtually no activity at all, the price shot up 80%. But the volume is only about twice the average volume.

    I made $2.40.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    WTF that isn't even LEGAL

    If you are assuming someone is doing scummy things it isn't too much farther to assume they would do illegal things, but yeah dumb.

    @blakeyrat said:

    I made $2.40.

    Fair enough.



  • Oh yeah I'm rolling in the dough on this investment. I'm only down, uh, 99.5%. (Before you feel too bad for me, I got into Facebook at like $24.)



  • @blakeyrat said:

    I'm only down, uh, 99.5%.

    Was more about how ~1k shares got $2.40 vs the idea of doing a spam based dump. Wasn't thinking about just how much volume you would have needed to pull anything like that, though now I wonder just how the penny stock spam I get makes money.



  • Oh shit it's now up 200%. If this keeps up, I might be able to buy a candy bar.



  • The comebacks are real.


  • Grade A Premium Asshole

    @blakeyrat said:

    Oh shit it's now up 200%. If this keeps up, I might be able to buy a candy bar.

    Which lends creedence<extra e to annoy the pedants> to what I said earlier. When you are talking about super low-cap stocks, it takes relatively little money to make market movements like that. Pump and dump.



  • Status: Holy fuck watching live trading charts is toxic. Only doing it because I had to set up my HSA investments with ETFs instead of something like VFFVX.


  • area_deu



  • Unless you're trying to woosh me with a Quake reference.

    Oh goodie, even though that's a Media Wiki, we're not going to onebox it. Thanks @codinghorrorbot


  • 🔀

    @JazzyJosh Is Doing It Wrong™

    <!-- Posted by SockBot 0.13.0 "Devious Daine" on Thu Feb 26 2015 20:39:23 GMT+0000 (UTC)-->


  • What's the advantage of an ETF over a mutual fund? I keep getting prompts from my investment company to switch to ETFs, but they never make a compelling case as to why.



  • No real difference. Just different ways of holding the same assets. ETFs are generally cheaper, but require a brokerage account (and the possible buy/sell fees associated with one) and their value changes throughout the day whereas a mutual fund's value is set based on the value of the assets it has at the close of each trading day.

    See ETFs vs. Mutual Funds



  • Merill Lynch must make more money off ETFs or they wouldn't be pushing them.


  • Grade A Premium Asshole

    @blakeyrat said:

    Merill Lynch must make more money off ETFs or they wouldn't be pushing them.

    There ya go. Whatever they are pushing is what has the biggest rip right now. Just like car lots and leases. They care fuck all about what is best for you.



  • Right; but them making more money of ETFs doesn't necessarily suggest I wouldn't.



  • Commisions on buying/selling them probably.

    $6.95 per trade unless you have $25k+ at BoA

    I've invested my HSA money with TD Ameritrade and I'm using their commission free ETFs. AFAIK those are used to garner business in other areas, e.g. ETFs outside the 100+ that are commission free and stocks



  • Commission-free is nice, but I don't trade mutuals very often. Once a year, at most. So a few bucks commission is no big deal.

    What's more interesting to me is that this seems to be acknowledging the report a few years ago that stated that even the "best" mutual managers trend almost exactly with the market average. I'm guessing ETFs originated from investors saying, "hey, why are we paying these fund managers who aren't any better at it than Bob at the barbershop?"

    Anyway I got $2500 or so in "cash" in my Merrill account, so I've been itching to invest that in something fun. Gonna skip ETFs I think.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    I've been itching to invest that in something fun.

    PLAY?



  • I generally don't invest in companies I don't do business with myself. I've never even seen a "Dave and Busters" before.


  • Grade A Premium Asshole

    @blakeyrat said:

    I generally don't invest in companies I don't do business with myself.

    That is a silly guideline for investing...


  • Grade A Premium Asshole

    @blakeyrat said:

    Right; but them making more money of ETFs doesn't necessarily suggest I wouldn't.

    I have never known a salesman to have my best interests in mind when the primary reason he is trying to sell me something is based upon what puts more money in his pocket.



  • @Polygeekery said:

    That is a silly guideline for investing...

    Maybe, but it works for me. It's my version of the classic "don't invest in anything you don't understand" advice.


  • Grade A Premium Asshole

    @blakeyrat said:

    Maybe, but it works for me. It's my version of the classic "don't invest in anything you don't understand" advice.

    Lots of people did not understand how Enron worked and that turned out...OK, you might have a point...


  • Impossible Mission Players - A

    The theory of an ETF as opposed to a Mutual Fund relates to a buy-and-hold situation -- the ETF does more or less the same things the Mutual Fund does, in terms of shares that it transacts in, but it's all done by a computer that makes a lot less money than the High Flying Mutual Fund Manager Special Snowflake Whose Funds All Beat The Market Until They Didn't And Were Shut Down To Goose The Marketing Materials.

    So, in a buy-and-hold environment, you might typically lose 1-1.5% of the value of your Mutual Fund every year to expenses, while most ETFs are in a 0.5% expense range.

    IMPORTANT DISCLAIMER: Check the prospectus of any mutual fund or ETF you currently invest in or are considering investing in for actual expense ratios and other important information. Please don't blindly trade on my post without doing your own research, blah, blah, blah.



  • @izzion said:

    you might typically lose 1-1.5% of the value of your Mutual Fund every year to expenses

    Implying index funds aren't mutual funds.

    Granted I don't know if @blakeyrat is investing in actively managed mutual funds, but by his posts I hightly doubt it.



  • @JazzyJosh said:

    Granted I don't know if @blakeyrat is investing in actively managed mutual funds, but by his posts I hightly doubt it.

    What in my posts have given you that impression?



  • Whoops, I mentally put part of Polygeekery's posts in your, sorry.

    I don't trade mutuals very often. Once a year, at most. So a few bucks commission is no big deal.

    I assumed by this that you were going with a buy and hold model for some reason.

    What's more interesting to me is that this seems to be acknowledging the report a few years ago that stated that even the "best" mutual managers trend almost exactly with the market average.

    This too.



  • @JazzyJosh said:

    >I don't trade mutuals very often. Once a year, at most. So a few bucks commission is no big deal.

    I assumed by this that you were going with a buy and hold model for some reason.

    @blakeyrat's following a buy-and-hold strategy. That doesn't mean the fund manager is.


  • Impossible Mission Players - A

    My understanding (which may be slightly dated) is that ETFs are fundamentally the same as Mutual Funds in terms of tax treatment and the disclosures they're required to make. From the perspective of what they actually do, they're basically the same.

    For the sake of my post, I was using the term "Mutual Fund" to refer to managed funds, which is how I read blakey's original question to use the term.



  • @HardwareGeek said:

    @blakeyrat's following a buy-and-hold strategy. That doesn't mean the fund manager is.

    Correct. I have two "classes" of investment: long-term stuff for retirement (almost all managed mutuals), and individual stocks for fun (where I made a lot of money by getting in on Facebook after their fucked-up IPO).

    The long-term stuff I only really even look at once a year, to see if the mutual is still keeping up or exceeding market averages, and reinvest in another mutual if not. Usually I don't have to make any changes, because from my experience, mutual fund managers do a pretty good job.



  • My only problem with that is with the high fees that come with actively managed funds, but if that's what floats your boat then whatever.

    Also no problem with the fun money stuff 🙂

    Status: Less than 2 weeks until this drops. Wish the code didn't come on the "collectable" phone card (not that anyone actually cares or will collect these, but if it's supposed to be collectable, why do you have to damage it to play the game (maybe that's a message they're trying to get across?))



  • @JazzyJosh said:

    My only problem with that is with the high fees that come with actively managed funds, but if that's what floats your boat then whatever.

    Well if I really wanted to spend a lot of time, I could see if I could find comparable ETFs for all the mutuals I hold, then do the math on whether the fees paid to the mutual fund managers are worthwhile.

    But I'm too lazy. None of this money is getting pulled out for at least 20 years, so "safety" is a big priority on those investments, and I believe a managed fund will always be "safer" than one managed by computer.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    I believe a managed fund will always be "safer" than one managed by computer.

    At the end of the day, everything's managed by a computer.



  • Well duh, the end of the day is like 11:00 PM, everybody's gone home by then.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    None of this money is getting pulled out for at least 20 years, so "safety" is a big priority on those investments, and I believe a managed fund will always be "safer" than one managed by computer.

    The big argument I normally see for the computer one is that the lower costs mean higher effective return (depends on how they do vs. human managed) so your kind of safety is basically giving up the long term safety (of total saved) higher average returns over 20 years gets you. Of course there are caveats that you need to look at on a case by case basis.



  • But we're also talking about something around 0.65% operating expenses on the funds. That's not a lot.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    0.65% operating expenses on the funds

    OK that is much lower than what I've seen on actively managed funds. I've seen cost differences that came to 1% between the two on operating expenses, sometimes more like 1.5%.



  • I tend to buy huuuge funds, that's probably why. The more money's in the pot, the less (percentage-wise) they need to extract for fees.



  • But there's a Bitcoin ETF! What could be more fun than that?


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