Fat Girl



  • I wasn't aware we were playing Dwarf Fortress in this thread.



  • @Onyx said:

    when I tell people what my diet consist of they usually shake their head and go away grumbling about how they would like to eat the same and remain thin / lose weight

    Ever considered a career as a poo donor?



  • @blakeyrat said:

    people who criticize others are still assholes

    Quoted as an opportunity for self-reflection.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    No; but people who criticize others are still assholes.

    What? Why in the hell?

    Look, we've had a lengthy discussion a while ago that criticizing people as a whole is bad - I still disagree, but whatever, I see where those guys come from. But saying that criticizing people's choices and what people do is bad and makes you an asshole? I honestly don't see that, people do this to various people all the time.

    Say, I don't know, are you not allowed to criticize a bratty spoiled teenager flashing off his iPhone? Or a crooked politician? Or say about a shitty director that he should stop making movies?

    Or, let's say, smokers. Yeah, those guys are a good example. It's just as unhealthy, just as hard to quit, and I can see how it's just as unattractive, but somehow you don't see Internet campaigns about "smoker-shaming" or people vocally defending smokers' rights. Instead, you get everyone and anyone saying smoking is bad, and you should feel bad for doing it. So are those people wrong by your logic? Or is it just the matter of not ticking off the right checkboxes on Social Justice List?

    @blakeyrat said:

    >If you're depressed, it doesn't grant you the right to be an asshole.

    How is that remotely similar to your other examples?

    I can see the differences, but it's pretty similar. You excuse yourself by playing the social disadvantage card.

    @blakeyrat said:

    Also I live in the US, where everybody has the right to be an asshole. It's in our Bill of Rights. Fuck you.

    Yeah well sure, I still don't know if that's the case in Poland given our theoretical insult laws, but whatever. My point is, you don't have more or less right to that just because you fall into one of the socially advantaged/disadvantaged groups.

    @blakeyrat said:

    And it's only unhealthy if it is. It's only unattractive if it is. If it ain't, it ain't.

    It's unhealthy period. You can not care about it, fair enough, but that it's better to your health to not be fat than to be fat is pretty much a scientific fact. As for attractiveness - yeah well beauty is in the eye of the beholder and shit, but for majority of people it is unattractive. But I digress.

    @blakeyrat said:

    But that doesn't mean other people should be saying so to your face-- if they do, those people are assholes.

    "I don't think you/that guy is attractive". How's saying that to someone being an asshole? It's an opinion, you can say it. Obviously I don't think anybody would go up to random people on the street and tell them that, but there are contexts in which it's a perfectly normal thing to say.

    @blakeyrat said:

    Look. You're not "entitled" to jack shit, ok? There's not like Thor God of Thunder crashing down lightning bolts to every Joe Sixpack on the street who makes a "hey fatso, have a donut" joke.

    That doesn't make Joe Sixpack not an asshole, though, and you certainly shouldn't be defending his asshole behavior.

    Being an asshole is being an asshole. Making stupid harsh jokes is being an asshole, okay, I don't disagree. But criticizing things and people for doing those things is a completely separate issue, and while the two sometimes overlap, sometimes they just don't.

    @blakeyrat said:

    Now you lost me entirely. Fat people are out there punching people? Is that the message? Huh?

    Jeesh, take an idiom once in a while. It's about shutting up people. BEEP BEEP.

    @blakeyrat said:

    I think it is wrong, unless asking whether you should get some exercise and lose weight was the entire purpose of the doctor's appointment...

    So? Shouldn't a doctor warn you that your lifestyle choices are unhealthy? That's what they're for. Because they know that in two years, you'll be coming to them, this time with heart problems and hard breathing, and it can be prevented (easily or not, depends on the person).

    @RaceProUK said:

    On the BMI scale, most rugby union players are overweight or obese. Which, of course, just goes to show how fucking useless the BMI is

    Yeah well, my BMI is technically normal. My gut says otherwise. We're talking about genuine fat people, not ones who got misclassified by a shitty metric.

    @cartman82 said:

    You guys are arguing against some imaginary society where random people on the street walk up and criticize you for being fat.

    Personally, I'm arguing against society in which conversations like this take place (a slightly abridged version of the real one I've had):

    They: something something something also fat shaming
    Me: Fat shaming?
    They: Durr, you can see all around the media that they promote skinny people and criticize fat people and people don't like fat people and that's fat shaming. Also people should be proud for being fat.
    Me: Yeah well, surprise, most people find you unattractive if you're fat. No wonder media show things people like to look at and don't give a shit about your social justice war. And there's definitely nothing to be proud of - it's neither difficult nor beneficial, and for the great majority of people it's just laziness.
    They: YOU FAT SHAMER YOU


    Also, on a note, I'm arguing against a society in which nobody should ever say anything that would constitute disagreement with someone else's lifestyle. Against a society in which everyone from their childhood to their late adulthood is treated as a special snowflake and allowed to do all the silly things without critique. Because I honestly think that for many, many creepy/weird/even fat kids (hell, even adults), if someone just came up to them and said "look, nobody likes you because this and that", they'd maybe reflect upon themselves and try to change that.

    But as a society, we seem to have pretty much given up on that, and just let everyone run their course and never grow up.

    @IngenieurLogiciel said:

    Some people conflate (1) and (2).

    I don't think anyone criticizes anyone for being muscular. It's not like people routinely go "OMG you weigh 120kg you're definitely fat even though you have zero to none body fat percent". People judge by the looks, and the difference here is pretty evident.



  • @Maciejasjmj said:

    I don't think anyone criticizes anyone for being muscular. It's not like people routinely go "OMG you weigh 120kg you're definitely fat even though you have zero to none body fat percent". People judge by the looks, and the difference here is pretty evident.

    I do not disagree. But that was simply an extreme example. The range of (1) includes all people who physically healthy regardless of their weight. Some in this group appear fat and therefore it is assumed they are unhealthy, which is not necessarily the case. As evidence, http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/10/09/the-healthy-obese-and-their-healthy-fat-cells/ and http://www.webmd.com/diet/20080811/benign-obesity-malign-normal-weight In both these cases, a certain set of obese people were physically healthy. Not surprisingly, exercise had a positive correlation with health beyond what the appearance of being fat implied.

    This is where (3) comes in. Certain people understandably but incorrectly conflate being fat with being unhealthy (i.e. mistaking correlation for complete causation).



  • I, frankly, don't give a shit if you die some day because your ass is fat.

    Just don't tell me it's okay to be fat, or that it's beautiful (ew), or whatnot. It's not, and I won't buy it. I can tell, because I am obese as fuck. And I have a slew of health problems precisely because of that.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    Fat people are out there punching people?

    I only do that with permission.



  • @cartman82 said:

    You guys are arguing against some imaginary society where random people on the street walk up and criticize you for being fat. In reality, that doesn't happen. No one really cares about your problems.

    It's pretty true that "random" people don't. But plenty of people do. It's similar to a young married couple always getting asked about when they plan to have children. Random dude on the street might not, but even acquaintances and good friends and distant relatives are likely to.

    It's like those other micro-aggressions, except there's actual condescension. And over time, even the mild stuff gets super annoying. Kind of like correcting stupid people's grammar. Sure, some of them probably could learn to speak (or write) correctly, but correcting all the annoying shit they spout eventually gets on their nerves almost as much as they get on mine yours.



  • Ok, that makes sense.

    I suppose if you have a family member or a friend with an obvious unhealthy habit, you need to find a balance between looking after them and being an annoying nag.



  • Yeah, because like the comic says, it's not like they're still overweight because of lack of education about the subject. Fucking enlightenment...not every problem is solvable by more education.



  • Yeah. At some point, it turns into a life philosophy judgment. Smokers, fat people, drug users etc. can look at pros and cons of their habit and decide they would rather have stress-free and more enjoyable, but shorter life. Health advocates think EVERYONE should follow their life philosophy, and invest effort into living a longer, healthier (but duller?) life. And more and more often, they are using instruments of government to "incentivize" others to comply.

    In some way, they are right. If you could get a fatty to eat healthier, a smoker to stop smoking, or a drug addict to stop taking drugs, they would probably be happier in the long run.

    But then you get into the larger issue of individual vs societal decision making, the rights of a group to propagate their own culture at the expense of individuals and all this other stuff. And you won't find any definitive answers there.

    So I suppose, just prod your fat buddy now and again they should exorcise more, but otherwise leave them alone with their snacks.


  • SockDev

    @cartman82 said:

    just prod your fat buddy now and again they should exorcise more

    I think exorcisms are best left to a qualified religious official :stuck_out_tongue:

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  • @RaceProUK said:

    I think exorcisms are best left to a qualified religious official

    You know what? I'm not fucking fixing it. Hope you're happy.


  • SockDev

    @cartman82 said:

    You know what? I'm not fucking fixing it. Hope you're happy.

    You big meanie! :cry:

    j/k ;)

    Guess I'll just go back to teasing @accalia about her typing skills…

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  • @wft said:

    It's not, and I won't buy it. I can tell, because I am obese as fuck. And I have a slew of health problems precisely because of that.

    Likewise.

    Still and all, it's quite amazing how many times I encounter thin people whose mission in life includes telling every fat person they meet that obesity is not healthy, as if that's somehow gonna be a life-changing revelation.

    Me: "OMG, I had no idea that my sore knees and fucked-up achilles tendons and the fact that I puff when I walk up hill and snore at night could possibly have anything to do with my terrible habit of lugging a whole second person around all day every day! You have changed my life! I will become thin tomorrow! I am eternally in your debt! Without your sage advice I would not have had a clue what to do! Have you considered a career as a consultant?"

    I've been fat, and I've been lean. Lean wins. Fat people know this.

    I am currently obese again. Nobody who tells me that all I need to do is eat less and move more is helping me do those things to the required extent. In my case, experience tells me that the required extent is extreme-to-obsessive. I do not currently have the time or energy to make maintaining a healthy bodyfat percentage my sole concern, which is what experience demonstrates that success requires. I wish I did. But I don't.

    So, anybody out there who feels a burning need to comment on somebody else's bodyweight: unless you are absolutely sure you know of some sure-fire method they can use to achieve and sustain a healthy leanness for the rest of their life while paying no more attention and expending no more effort than you do yourself: kindly STFU and keep your half-baked opinions to yourself.

    Sometimes,
    It's Not About The Nail – 01:42
    — Jason Headley



  • And furthermore: anybody who seriously believes that obese people are lazy is cordially invited to try the following game:

    1. Play starts by filling 50 hot water bottles with 1 litre of lukewarm water each, then strapping them all over your body with low-allergy surgical dressing tape. Must have at least two strapped to each leg below the knee, five on each leg above the knee, three behind each buttock, one on each upper arm, and 20 over the abdomen. The rest can go anywhere they can be made to fit. These bottles must remain strapped to the body at all times. Sleeping, showering, eating, shitting, working, walking, biking, driving... doesn't matter. At all times. Can't work out how to wipe your arse any more? Tough shit.

    2. Qualifying round: wear all the bottles for a week while maintaining an accurate log of every piece of food and drink you swallow. If you're the kind of weak-willed pissant for whom this round proves too hard, you may of course quit the game at any time provided you acknowledge in writing that you are a worthless loser unfit to lick the arse crack of the next fat person who crowds you on the subway.

    3. Main round: Analyze the first week's food log and work out how many kJ you're consuming each day. Now reduce that daily intake by 1000 kJ. At the end of each week, roll a pair of six-sided dice. Subtract 10 from the result, then multiply by 100, then adjust the total amount of bottled water you're carrying by that amount in millilitres. For example, if you roll a 7 the result will be -300 and you get to tip out 300ml of water in total from bottles of your choosing. Roll a 12 and you will need to add an extra total 200ml to your bottles. Any time a bottle empties out completely, you get to unstrap it and not wear it any more but you must add half a minute's brisk walking to your daily routine instead.

    Confident prediction: no thin person who has ever advised a fat person to eat less and move more will even make it past the first week.



  • If my life was like your description, I'd have all the motivation I needed to lose the weight...



  • Which is precisely the point. Motivation is not enough.



  • @boomzilla said:

    It's pretty true that "random" people don't. But plenty of people do. It's similar to a young married couple always getting asked about when they plan to have children. Random dude on the street might not, but even acquaintances and good friends and distant relatives are likely to.

    It's like those other micro-aggressions, except there's actual condescension. And over time, even the mild stuff gets super annoying. Kind of like correcting stupid people's grammar. Sure, some of them probably could learn to speak (or write) correctly, but correcting all the annoying shit they spout eventually gets on their nerves almost as much as they get on mine yours.

    Yeah, okay, that makes sense to me too. But somehow you still don't get married people complaining about "no-kid-shaming", or people using poor grammar yelling that they're oppressed by those grammar nazis.

    Or again, smoking. Not the healthiest habit, and maybe not the most attractive, but somehow there's a social approval for bashing smokers over the head with a cancer Bible even if it's as much of your business as being fat.

    And again, it all seems to boil down to whether you tick the right check-boxes on the Socially Oppressed list.

    @flabdablet said:

    So, anybody out there who feels a burning need to comment on somebody else's bodyweight: unless you are absolutely sure you know of some sure-fire method they can use to achieve and sustain a healthy leanness for the rest of their life while paying no more attention and expending no more effort than you do yourself: kindly STFU and keep your half-baked opinions to yourself.

    Some people have it harder, some people have it easier. No shit. But if you're not even trying, and then thinking of yourself as just as non-lazy as all the people who tried and succeeded, that's the whole new level of wrong.

    And if you're the author of that comic:

    then really, you don't have the "big bones" or "genes" to blame.



  • @Maciejasjmj said:

    thinking of yourself as just as non-lazy as all the people who tried and succeeded

    Given that I am one of the people who tried and succeeded (twenty years ago I dropped 60kg over the course of two years, and kept it off for five) then I know perfectly well that I am indeed just as non-lazy as one of those people.

    In any case, if I'm to take criticism of my laziness seriously from anybody, it won't be from some smug thinifer who has never walked a mile in my achilles tendons.



  • @Maciejasjmj said:

    really, you don't have the "big bones" or "genes" to blame

    No. But you probably do have willpower worn down to a nub through chronic overuse.



  • @Maciejasjmj said:

    But somehow you still don't get married people complaining about "no-kid-shaming", or people using poor grammar yelling that they're oppressed by those grammar nazis.

    You don't know many married people. Or maybe that's just a first world problem. The grammar thing was more tongue in cheek, though I'm sure I annoy people with it.

    @Maciejasjmj said:

    And again, it all seems to boil down to whether you tick the right check-boxes on the Socially Oppressed list.

    Maybe. I think most people are genuinely trying to help, but that doesn't keep it from being annoying or anything. And it shouldn't be surprising that people push back.

    @Maciejasjmj said:

    And if you're the author of that comic:

    If Bill Cosby taught me nothing else, it's that you probably can't keep rape a secret forever chocolate cake is healthy for breakfast because it's made with wheat, eggs and milk.


  • SockDev

    @Maciejasjmj said:

    Or again, smoking. Not the healthiest habit, and maybe not the most attractive, but somehow there's a social approval for bashing smokers over the head with a cancer Bible even if it's as much of your business as being fat.

    To be fair, the smoke from tobacco gets around and into the lungs of those who don't smoke. I find that undesirable, but not because of the health impacts (which aren't necessarily as big as some make out), but simply because I hate the smell of tobacco smoke.
    However, if you have an e-cig, then smoke away; at least they don't smell icky :smile:


    The social stigma against fatness I think is more to do with magazines and stuff perpetuating a standard of beauty that most will never obtain. In centuries past, especially during the Georgian era, corpulence was in fact desirable, as it showed you were wealthy enough to enjoy life's great pleasures; a big gut was something to be proud of.

    At the end of the day, there's only one person who needs to be happy with your weight: you*. And if anyone tells you otherwise, then tell them to jolly well Belgium off! :laughing:

    *Not directed at a single person; more a generalised statement

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  • @Maciejasjmj said:

    Or again, smoking. Not the healthiest habit, and maybe not the most attractive, but somehow there's a social approval for bashing smokers over the head with a cancer Bible even if it's as much of your business as being fat.

    You keep saying that as if it were true.

    Fat people don't harm anyone but themselves. Smokers do. Unless they are standing on a personal raft in the middle of an ocean, and even then you can be sure that they are going to throw the end of the cig. into the water and pollute some poor unsuspecting mollusc.

    Some of the people with the hardest workout schedule and diet I know are fat -- genetically so; they work extremely hard at loosing weight. They would easily outrun me on any 20km track. I admire their determination. Who am I to tell them they need to loose weight? I just happened to luck out with that particular gene set.

    A smoker who is spreading their cancer-air around them where I might be sitting in an outdoor ice-cream bar is actively disturbing and harming me, and actually has a choice! I can ask them not to smoke there, and they can take their filthy habit and go elsewhere.

    So, please stop comparing smokers and fat people -- they, or the treatment of them, is not the same no matter how much you repeat it.



  • @flabdablet said:

    And furthermore: anybody who seriously believes that obese people are lazy is cordially invited to try the following game:

    I'm not exactly thin, but I would gladly participate in this. That is, if it wasn't all day everyday (because, you know, I have a real life, and I don't fancy driving a car with my little sister next with me while I have problem moving a leg from gas to brake - and getting my sis to school is part of my daily routine). Also, I hate counting calories - because if I wanted to do it right, I would have to lab-test a sample of every single product I'm about to eat, and putting my every meal on an ultra-precise scale because slice of bread can vary in size up to 600%.


  • SockDev

    @Gaska said:

    slice of bread can vary in size up to 600%.

    :wtf:
    Where on Avalice are you getting your bread? :laughing:

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  • @Gaska said:

    I would gladly participate in this ... if it wasn't all day everyday ... Also, I hate counting calories

    I'm currently doing it with bodyfat instead of the water bottles, and random bodily processes instead of the dice. I would also be much less despondent about participating if it wasn't all fucking day every fucking day. Also, I hate counting calories as well, and often fail at it. Nice to find a bit of common ground.



  • @Mikael_Svahnberg said:

    stop comparing smokers and fat people

    Going cold turkey on nicotine is achievable. Going cold turkey on food is not.



  • @RaceProUK said:

    The social stigma against fatness I think is more to do with magazines and stuff perpetuating a standard of beauty that most will never obtain.

    I think that is mostly crap. I think it has more to do with, as @Maciejasjmj said, an evolved perception of health as it relates to perception of beauty (honestly, I think most "attractively thin" people look better with a bit more weight) and actual concerns about health (though these aren't really as straightforward as they seem).

    I find new insights into gut flora to be very interesting.



  • @flabdablet said:

    Going cold turkey on food is not.

    ISTR you saying you had some success with periodic fasting. Have you kept up with that (from posts here, sounds like not as successfully, but how would I know?)?



  • @RaceProUK said:

    there's only one person who needs to be happy with your weight: you*.

    Now that I'm 53 years old, my weight is causing me enough chronic pain that being happy with it just doesn't work any more. On the upside, I no longer feel quite so much like ending, bending or rending people who advise me to eat less and move more. Most of them are younger than me and will come to know pain in their turn.



  • It worked better than anything I'd tried before, but just like every non-drug-assisted regime ever, it eventually wore out my willpower. I'm pretty much back to square 1 right now.



  • Why is this motivation thing needed at all?

    I don't know.

    Stay fucking fat. Get ill. Die of cirrosis, diabetes, heart attack, or whatever you might have at that stage.
    No one is going to give a flying fuck, except those who are gonna buy a casket for your fat ass.

    It's your fucking business if you find this comfortable. Jedem das seine.


  • SockDev

    @boomzilla said:

    I think that is mostly crap. I think it has more to do with, as @Maciejasjmj said, an evolved perception of health as it relates to perception of beauty (honestly, I think most "attractively thin" people look better with a bit more weight) and actual concerns about health (though these aren't really as straightforward as they seem).

    Well… yeah; I too prefer those with a bit more cushion for the pushin', to paraphrase Spinal Tap (I think?). But the magazines and stuff don't exactly help ;)

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  • @boomzilla said:

    I find new insights into gut flora to be very interesting.

    Gut microbes outnumber "our own" cells by at least 10 to 1. It would be astonishing to find that they did not have profound effects on metabolism.

    If I ever get access to a clinical trial of microbial transplants from thin people I will quite literally be all over that shit.



  • @wft said:

    Stay fucking fat. Get ill. Die of cirrosis, diabetes, heart attack, or whatever you might have at that stage.

    Don't wanna. I've been well and I've been ill. Well wins.



  • So I reckon you do have some motivation, eh?



  • @wft said:

    So I reckon you do have some motivation, eh?

    Have you been taking reading lessons with @blakeyrat?



  • Got plenty motivation. Don't need more motivation. Need a fat management regime that works.



  • @boomzilla said:

    taking reading lessons with @blakeyrat

    It's his thread.



  • @RaceProUK said:

    To be fair, the smoke from tobacco gets around and into the lungs of those who don't smoke.

    Yeah, when you smoke. Not when you're informed that someone smokes.

    @RaceProUK said:

    However, if you have an e-cig, then smoke away; at least they don't smell icky

    I do, it's quite nice, I'd recommend that to anybody - but it doesn't taste nearly as good as good tobacco.

    @RaceProUK said:

    The social stigma against fatness I think is more to do with magazines and stuff perpetuating a standard of beauty that most will never obtain.

    Somehow people complaining about "fat-shaming" are never of the "maybe-a-bit-more-than-curvy" variety, at least in my experience. It's fine not to have zero body fat. It's less fine to consist mostly of body fat.

    @RaceProUK said:

    In centuries past, especially during the Georgian era, corpulence was in fact desirable, as it showed you were wealthy enough to enjoy life's great pleasures; a big gut was something to be proud of.

    Well, the times when the most attractive thing in a woman was that she has a chance of surviving the winter are, I think, mostly gone.

    @Mikael_Svahnberg said:

    Fat people don't harm anyone but themselves.

    Have you ever smelled a fat guy? Trust me, Russian cigarettes are daffodils compared to that.

    Also, again, a lot of smoker bashing is not a result of them puffing in your face. I agree, if someone does that, they're beyond the level of "critique".

    @Mikael_Svahnberg said:

    genetically so

    Yeah, some people are more predisposed. I'm fine with them. But if your "predisposition" is eating ten packs of Doritos per evening, then you're not beyond criticism.

    @flabdablet said:

    Going cold turkey on nicotine is achievable. Going cold turkey on food is not.

    Going cold turkey on overeating is. Again, for most people. If your metabolism is so fucked you'd die of starvation before you get thinner, then well, you're kinda beyond the scope of this discussion.



  • @flabdablet said:

    Got plenty motivation. Don't need more motivation. Need a fat management regime that works.

    Have you considered gastric stapling or some other such surgery?



  • @Maciejasjmj said:

    Have you ever smelled a fat guy?

    Fuck you.


  • SockDev

    @Maciejasjmj said:

    Yeah, when you smoke. Not when you're informed that someone smokes.

    Touché ;)
    @Maciejasjmj said:
    It's fine not to have zero body fat.

    Having zero body fat comes with its own health problems anyway; the human body needs a minimum (about 5% by mass I think) to work properly.
    @Maciejasjmj said:
    Well, the times when the most attractive thing in a woman was that she has a chance of surviving the winter are, I think, mostly gone.

    QFT

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  • @Maciejasjmj said:

    Have you ever smelled a fat guy? Trust me, Russian cigarettes are daffodils compared to that.

    Around these parts, it's mostly skinny guys who stink. Usually black guys, though middle eastern and south Asian also rank up there. It appears to be cultural aversion to bathing and deodorant. I've never noticed fat people per se were more likely to stink.



  • To fight my body fat I go my trusty route of a high fat, low carb diet. Only gave it up for a small while that I was sick and took antibiotics, because I had problems digesting anything at the time. I don't like fad diets and all, but this is the only one that works to keep my blood sugar low (my fat ass is diabetic, too). The weight loss is more of a side effect (and frankly speaking, if it only kept my glucose low without weight loss, I would still be on it).



  • @Maciejasjmj said:

    Or, let's say, smokers. Yeah, those guys are a good example. It's just as unhealthy, just as hard to quit, and I can see how it's just as unattractive, but somehow you don't see Internet campaigns about "smoker-shaming" or people vocally defending smokers' rights.

    I defend smoker's rights, and I don't even smoke. I think anti-smoking campaigns are fucking ridiculous, and I definitely oppose spending tax dollars on them.

    @Maciejasjmj said:

    Instead, you get everyone and anyone saying smoking is bad, and you should feel bad for doing it. So are those people wrong by your logic?

    Yes.

    @Maciejasjmj said:

    Or is it just the matter of not ticking off the right checkboxes on Social Justice List?

    No, it's just one of those really stupid cases where someone tries to accuse me of being a hypocrite without actually verifying that I am one first.

    @Maciejasjmj said:

    Yeah well sure, I still don't know if that's the case in Poland given our theoretical insult laws, but whatever.

    "theoretical insult laws"?

    @Maciejasjmj said:

    My point is, you don't have more or less right to that just because you fall into one of the socially advantaged/disadvantaged groups.

    No; of course not. In the US, you always have the right to say whatever you want. With very few limitations.

    We're not talking about legal rights (at least we weren't until you brought it up), we're talking about people being assholes. Since it's entirely legal to be an asshole, bringing up legal rights contributes nothing to the discussion.

    @Maciejasjmj said:

    It's unhealthy period.

    Except that's not true. Watch the Penn and Teller Bullshit! episode I linked above.

    Even if it were true, it's still none of your fucking business how much somebody else weighs.

    @Maciejasjmj said:

    Jeesh, take an idiom once in a while. It's about shutting up people. BEEP BEEP.

    This is gibberish to me.

    @Maciejasjmj said:

    So? Shouldn't a doctor warn you that your lifestyle choices are unhealthy? That's what they're for.

    If they are, they should. If they aren't, they shouldn't.

    @Maciejasjmj said:

    Yeah well, my BMI is technically normal. My gut says otherwise. We're talking about genuine fat people, not ones who got misclassified by a shitty metric.

    Since doctors and health crusaders invariably use the shitty metric, you're arguing against your own point here. Again, Penn and Teller cover this in that Bullshit! episode.

    @Maciejasjmj said:

    Also, on a note, I'm arguing against a society in which nobody should ever say anything that would constitute disagreement with someone else's lifestyle. Against a society in which everyone from their childhood to their late adulthood is treated as a special snowflake and allowed to do all the silly things without critique. Because I honestly think that for many, many creepy/weird/even fat kids (hell, even adults), if someone just came up to them and said "look, nobody likes you because this and that", they'd maybe reflect upon themselves and try to change that.

    Change has to come from within. You can't change a person from without. There's no evidence that making people feel like shit makes them more likely to lose weight-- in fact, the opposite is generally true. (They will isolate themselves and eat more.)

    Guess what? We used to spank children, too. Why don't we do that anymore? Because it was scientifically proven that spanking children does not improve their behavior better than non-physical punishments. It's just causing unnecessary pain.

    I'm against causing unnecessary pain.

    @Maciejasjmj said:

    But as a society, we seem to have pretty much given up on that, and just let everyone run their course and never grow up.

    Good! That sounds like a pretty apt definition of heaven, to me.



  • @Keith said:

    gastric stapling

    Considered it, yes.

    I know several people who have done the surgical thing; over twenty years it's worked no better for them than my initial willpower-based method worked for me. I also know myself well enough to have every confidence that the mechanisms that keep me fat at present would find a way to work around gut mutilation in fairly short order. So for the time being I'd rather suffer the obesity.

    Best thing ever for me was a drug called Reductil (sibutramine, an SSRI appetite suppressant). Worked fucking brilliantly: willpower in pill form. One of those a day and I was losing weight without even trying. All the compulsive patterns around food just went away; I felt like a normal human being for the first time in my life. Expensive though at $80/week.

    I'd been on it for six months and dropped 15kg when the manufacturer withdrew it after a study showed that it increased the risk of heart disease.



  • @boomzilla said:

    Around these parts, it's mostly skinny guys who stink. Usually black guys, though middle eastern and south Asian also rank up there.

    Yeah, we don't get as much variety, so can't tell you about it (also THATS WAISIST).

    @boomzilla said:

    It appears to be cultural aversion to bathing and deodorant.

    It's not really it in this case. You can get squeaky clean mornings and evenings, but after eight or so hours in, say, 30 degrees Celsius (do the conversion to your funny 'Murican degrees yourself) you will sweat, and if you're fat, it will be harder for the sweat to evaporate due to the... well, fat.

    @wft said:

    To fight my body fat I go my trusty route of a high fat, low carb diet.

    Yeah, it has worked well for me in the past. That, and cutting calories to a bare minimum - I don't know if that Atkins guy was right or wrong in that it's enough to just not eat carbs, but I don't really have a month or so to test it.



  • @wft said:

    high fat, low carb

    Of all the forms of restricted eating I've ever used, that's been the most effective for me as well.


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