Fat Girl



  • It's worth noting that until relatively recently (the 1960s or so) in the US, the "strong" appearance wasn't "cut with zero body fat", it was "barrel-chested". Look at the Adventures of Superman from the 1950s-- George Reeves was hired because, to the society at the time, he looked like a superhero. He could not look more different than, say, the Arnold Schwarzenegger look that was popular in the 1970s.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    I'm against causing unnecessary pain.

    Persona slipping a bit there, dude.


  • ♿ (Parody)

    @Maciejasjmj said:

    It's not really it in this case. You can get squeaky clean mornings and evenings, but after eight or so hours in, say, 30 degrees Celsius (do the conversion to your funny 'Murican degrees yourself) you will sweat, and if you're fat, it will be harder for the sweat to evaporate due to the... well, fat

    Very few people come even close to sweating as much as I do. Unless I'm really exercising / doing hard physical labor, I rarely stink simply from sweat.



  • @cartman82 said:

    Ok, that makes sense.

    I suppose if you have a family member or a friend with an obvious unhealthy habit, you need to find a balance between looking after them and being an annoying nag.

    I would say it like this:

    If you want to induce them to change, you have to choose a tactic with works. Shaming a person simply doesn't work.


  • FoxDev

    @blakeyrat said:

    Guess what? We used to spank children, too. Why don't we do that anymore? Because it was scientifically proven that spanking children does not improve their behavior better than non-physical punishments. It's just causing unnecessary pain.

    Really? I just thought it was a 'think of the children' sort of thing; musta missed the studies being published…

    For the record, if I ever have children, I won't be spanking them; I just don't see spanking as a desirable action to take


  • Banned

    Damn. @blakeyrat not being asshole to everyone, not throwing insults around, not using capslock, having actually a decent point, able to withstand a long discussion with someone who has opposite point of view? Wow, I'm seriously impressed. Even if it's just his account being hacked - because that would be mighty impressive in itself.



  • @Maciejasjmj said:

    Yeah, it has worked well for me in the past. That, and cutting calories to a bare minimum - I don't know if that Atkins guy was right or wrong in that it's enough to just not eat carbs, but I don't really have a month or so to test it.

    That Atkins guy was right in one respect — if you cut carbs, you need significantly less food to get satiated, so for most people, I stress "most" as opposed to "all", getting full on fat is a natural way to manage calories. Also, the fact is that the body has different ways of processing different nutrients so not all calories are equal.

    That being said, the laws of physics are still there and you have to be on caloric deficit to lose weight, so the bad news is that if you get yourself in a plateau, you will need to count calories.

    What works for me is that I try to have a lot of walking regularly and not eating until I'm really full. I am a bit of a data junkie, but I try to abstain from counting calories. I want to enjoy my meals, dammit. If I counted calories obsessively, it would be just as bad as, say, trying to script a coitus, outlining every movement of it (hint: it just won't work).



  • @Maciejasjmj said:

    Yeah, okay, that makes sense to me too. But somehow you still don't get married people complaining about "no-kid-shaming",

    Yeah you do. I've heard that a bunch from a lot of different couples. Also single people complaining that their relatives are obsessed with setting them up on dates and constantly asking when they're going to get married.

    @Maciejasjmj said:

    or people using poor grammar yelling that they're oppressed by those grammar nazis.

    I've heard that one, too.

    @Maciejasjmj said:

    Or again, smoking. Not the healthiest habit, and maybe not the most attractive, but somehow there's a social approval for bashing smokers over the head with a cancer Bible even if it's as much of your business as being fat.

    I can't speak for everybody, but I think most vocal anti-smokers are complete assholes. And I also believe it's ineffective for the same reason fat shaming is: if people are going to quit smoking, they need to decide that on their own. Having a dozen random strangers come up and tell you how bad it is just doesn't work.

    (Of course while typing this, for the dimmer people in this thread, I fully realize that isn't usually the goal. Usually the goal is the same as the fat shamer, or as a Linux user typing a "well actually," post: they want to verbally acknowledge they're better than you are. There's no actual concern for a person's welfare in 99% of these encounters.)



  • @boomzilla said:

    Around these parts, it's mostly skinny guys who stink. Usually black guys, though middle eastern and south Asian also rank up there.

    RACIST TALK!

    Do you have the Caribbean islanders with their dreadlocks? Staples of the dreadlocks culture seems to be: 1) smoke 4 lbs of pot a day, 2) never, ever, wash your hair.

    That's an unpleasant odor on a public bus. Fat people are not even close.



  • There's one category of people I feel it's right to shame. The chronic complainers.

    A person that smokes like hell, coughing like mad (even better, having asthma) and complaining just how hard it's for them to breathe.
    A person that has a fat ass, complaining how their knees hurt and how hard it's for them to climb stairs.
    A person that has no life, doesn't make a move to have one, complaining how no one loves them.

    Fuck these people; you either move your ass to make a change, or put up and not complain.



  • @RaceProUK said:

    Really? I just thought it was a 'think of the children' sort of thing; musta missed the studies being published…

    Any Psychology 101 class at any university will go over the spanking thing. As well any (quality) parenting book. It's common-knowledge.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    "theoretical insult laws"?

    Technically, you can get sentenced in Poland for insult. It's about as well-defined as you'd think.

    @blakeyrat said:

    We're not talking about legal rights (at least we weren't until you brought it up), we're talking about people being assholes. Since it's entirely legal to be an asshole, bringing up legal rights contributes nothing to the discussion.

    Aren't you the one who brought this up? I was thinking more of an ethical "right" as in "you're allowed to do that without the society shunning you for that on principle". Whatever.

    @blakeyrat said:

    Even if it were true, it's still none of your fucking business how much somebody else weighs.

    Lots of things are not my fucking business (or not your fucking business, or someone else's fucking business). It doesn't imply I'm supposed to never comment on any of them.

    @blakeyrat said:

    Since doctors and health crusaders invariably use the shitty metric, you're arguing against your own point here.

    I've seen doctors doing body fat measurements too, which is far more reasonable.

    @blakeyrat said:

    Except that's not true. Watch the Penn and Teller Bullshit! episode I linked above.

    Will watch later, as for now, I'll stick to the studies.

    @blakeyrat said:

    Change has to come from within. You can't change a person from without.

    But people need to know they have to change when they do. If nobody calls you out, you won't even realize the potential for change - you'll just think everything is fine as it is.

    @blakeyrat said:

    Guess what? We used to spank children, too. Why don't we do that anymore? Because it was scientifically proven that spanking children does not improve their behavior better than non-physical punishments. It's just causing unnecessary pain.

    But what you're proposing is not to punish kids at all, or even to tell them they're behaving wrong, and just hope one day they'll grow out of it and figure it out themselves.

    @blakeyrat said:

    If you want to induce them to change, you have to choose a tactic with works. Shaming a person simply doesn't work.

    Except when it does. When people keep coming to you and say "look, you'd be a fine guy if it wasn't for this or that" - yeah, some people would stick fingers in their ears, but some wouldn't automatically assume that they're right and the entire world is wrong, and maybe reflect upon themselves.

    Sure, with street strangers, the first is more likely - but to be honest, if I had people regularly coming up to me and say, I don't know, that I stink or look fat, I'd probably spend at least a second to think about it.


  • ♿ (Parody)

    @RaceProUK said:

    For the record, if I ever have children, I won't be spanking them; I just don't see spanking as a desirable action to take

    Sometimes you just can't reach a child / get his attention without some form of corporal punishment. That's not to say you should be whipping your child with a belt, but an occasional slap on the butt does wonders to focus the mind of the child.

    And every kid is different. Some wilt with an askance look in their direction. Others don't take you seriously until you resemble R Lee Ermey.


  • ♿ (Parody)

    @blakeyrat said:

    Do you have the Caribbean islanders with their dreadlocks?

    Not in noticeable numbers.



  • @Maciejasjmj said:

    Aren't you the one who brought this up? I was thinking more of an ethical "right" as in "you're allowed to do that without the society shunning you for that on principle". Whatever.

    There's very little overlap between "ethics" (what is right) and "law" (what is your right). Other than the biggies, like rape and murder, there's not much overlap at all. In any case, I was never talking about legal right until other people brought it into the conversation.

    It's tricky in this case, because I 100% believe in freedom of speech above all other rights. So I 100% agree and endorse that people have the right to say whatever they want to you, even if they are being a gigantic dickhole.

    That said, I'd personally love it if people didn't say dickhole things and saved their freedom of speech rights for important issues that actually require them.

    @Maciejasjmj said:

    Lots of things are not my fucking business (or not your fucking business, or someone else's fucking business). It doesn't imply I'm supposed to never comment on any of them.

    It does to me. That's pretty much my definition of "none of your fucking business".

    @Maciejasjmj said:

    But people need to know they have to change when they do.

    Then they ask you.

    @Maciejasjmj said:

    If nobody calls you out, you won't even realize the potential for change - you'll just think everything is fine as it is.

    Maybe everything is just fine as it is? Who the fuck are you to say someone else's life isn't going " just fine"? Again, that's none of your business.

    Today I've learned that Polish people are all busybodies. Christ.

    @Maciejasjmj said:

    But what you're proposing is not to punish kids at all, or even to tell them they're behaving wrong, and just hope one day they'll grow out of it and figure it out themselves.

    No. Look. Let's say you have a fat friend, Ted, and you want to encourage them to lose weight. Here's two tactics:

    1

    You: "Hey Ted, we're going rock climbing on Saturday. I have a coupon for a party of four, but only 3 people signed up... you wanna come?"

    2

    You: "Hey Ted, I'm going rock climbing on Saturday. I have to invite Dave, that guy's kind of a jerk, but I know you can't come because you're too fucking fat and unfit to participate."

    One of those two options is being an asshole, one of them is not. Can you figure out which is which?

    (Hint: in both cases, Ted isn't going to go rock climbing with you. But in one of the cases, the one where you outright call him fat, he's going to feel awful.)

    @Maciejasjmj said:

    Except when it does. When people keep coming to you and say "look, you'd be a fine guy if it wasn't for this or that" - yeah, some people would stick fingers in their ears, but some wouldn't automatically assume that they're right and the entire world is wrong, and maybe reflect upon themselves.

    Is those people's goal to increase Ted's well-being, or just brag about being better than Ted? Because if it's the former, what they are doing is not helping. (Even if you believe they should be doing it, which I personally do not.)

    @boomzilla said:

    Sometimes you just can't reach a child / get his attention without some form of corporal punishment. That's not to say you should be whipping your child with a belt, but an occasional slap on the butt does wonders to focus the mind of the child.

    That's provably wrong, and don't take parenting advice from a Nazi.


  • ♿ (Parody)

    @blakeyrat said:

    That's provably wrong, and don't take parenting advice from a Nazi.

    Says the childless man-child. You can believe what you want, but your assertion has been proved wrong to me over and fucking over.



  • Deep inside, he just wants to be spanked by a strong, manly Republican.



  • @cartman82 said:

    He just wants to be spanked deep inside by a strong, manly Republican.

    RTFY



  • @blakeyrat said:

    That said, I'd personally love it if people didn't say dickhole things and saved their freedom of speech rights for important issues that actually require them.

    I don't disagree, but I personally think sometimes coming off as a dickhole turns out better in the end than not saying anything.

    @blakeyrat said:

    It does to me. That's pretty much my definition of "none of your fucking business".

    So, say, a discussion on Polish (or US in my case) politics is out of the question? Or on religion? Or a shitty movie? Or well, pretty much anything that isn't in your direct vicinity.

    People discuss things, and people criticize things, and some of those things don't involve them personally, and that's fine in my book.

    @blakeyrat said:

    Then they ask you.

    No they don't. To them, everything is fine until it's suddenly not.

    I was a weird as fuck kid in school, and I'd appreciate very much if someone back then came up and explained to me that sitting with your nose in a book (and a million of more embarrassing things I won't bring up here) is not normal, because maybe now I wouldn't look back at my life and insist I was born at the age of 15 and nothing happened before.

    @blakeyrat said:

    No. Look. Let's say you have a fat friend, Ted, and you want to encourage them to lose weight. Here's two tactics:

    That's not really what I'm talking about. Say you have a fat friend Ted, who tells you he can't find a girl to screw mercilessly... say, take to the prom. You have two tactics:

    a) "Yeah, well, there's many fish in the sea, and I'm sure you'll find someone special someday, because you're a good and honest person etc, etc.".
    b) "Dude, if you cut back on those Big Macs, maybe you'd have better chances?"

    The first one is much nicer, and will probably make Ted feel better about himself than the second one, but he's still not getting any.

    @blakeyrat said:

    Is those people's goal to increase Ted's well-being, or just brag about being better than Ted?

    Does it matter that much?



  • @Maciejasjmj said:

    So, say, a discussion on Polish (or US in my case) politics is out of the question? Or on religion? Or a shitty movie? Or well, pretty much anything that isn't in your direct vicinity.

    I have no idea how you're getting from point A to point B, there.

    @Maciejasjmj said:

    No they don't. To them, everything is fine until it's suddenly not.

    And that's wrong because...?

    @Maciejasjmj said:

    I was a weird as fuck kid in school, and I'd appreciate very much if someone back then came up and explained to me that sitting with your nose in a book (and a million of more embarrassing things I won't bring up here) is not normal, because maybe now I wouldn't look back at my life and insist I was born at the age of 15 and nothing happened before.

    Reading isn't normal in Poland?

    Reading is embarrassing in Poland!?

    Either "nose in a book" is a bad translation of something actually embarrassing here, or you live in a fucked-up country. No wonder we're the ones building airliners and computer networks and spacecraft.

    @Maciejasjmj said:

    Does it matter that much?

    Yes.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    I'd personally love it if people didn't say dickhole things and saved their freedom of speech rights for important issues that actually require them.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cbe5o3Mmkfg



  • @blakeyrat said:

    I have no idea how you're getting from point A to point B, there.

    Well you assert that if something's not your business, you're not supposed to comment on it.

    @blakeyrat said:

    Reading isn't normal in Poland?

    Reading is embarrassing in Poland!?

    It isn't normal and is embarrassing if you're doing it all the time to the point of basically being antisocial. Which was basically me at grade school.

    Anyway, I did more embarrassing things too, but that's out of the scope. And the point still is "if someone stopped treating me as a special snowflake and kicked me out on a playground, maybe I wouldn't be so embarrassed today".

    @blakeyrat said:

    And that's wrong because...?

    Because when it stops being fine for one reason or another, you suddenly realize how much of opportunities you've wasted.

    @blakeyrat said:

    Yes.

    I'm gonna say "results matter" on that one. If you, let's say, donate a million bucks to charity, I personally wouldn't care if you did that out of good heart, or to stroke your ego. And if you stroking your ego on poor fat Ted actually makes him reconsider his lifestyle, then I wouldn't really insist on finding out what your intentions were.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    Reading isn't normal in Poland?

    Reading is embarrassing in Poland!?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtyGY_o0Vx8


  • Banned

    @blakeyrat said:

    Reading isn't normal in Poland?

    Reading is embarrassing in Poland!?

    Either "nose in a book" is a bad translation of something actually embarrassing here, or you live in a fucked-up country. No wonder we're the ones building airliners and computer networks and spacecraft.


    He meant the bookworm/egghead/nerd/nolife kind of embarrbutting. If all those American cartoons I've watched as a kid taught me anything, it's that other kids are gonna laugh at those who casually read encyclopædias.



  • @Maciejasjmj said:

    if you stroking your ego on poor fat Ted actually makes him reconsider his lifestyle

    Clue:

    It won't.


  • ♿ (Parody)

    @Maciejasjmj said:

    I don't disagree, but I personally think sometimes coming off as a dickhole turns out better in the end than not saying anything.

    Definitely. The problem is when people don't realize they're being dickholes. Of course, we'll never fully agree on what constitutes dickholishness on every topic.



  • @Maciejasjmj said:

    Have you ever smelled a fat guy?

    I am not aware of social customs in your country, but if I were to go around sniffing at people in Sweden people would back off, give me a Weird Look, and take me for a furry.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    EDIT: also you're full of shit. The bill provides for obesity awareness campaigns. It talks a bit about funding weight-loss programs as part of a health plan. Nothing about pro-rating premiums based on weight classification. Nor can I find anything about that on Google or Wikipedia.

    Well, the actual situation can be construed as the opposite.

    • Premiums will not be allowed to vary by health status

    So, technically, premiums are supposed to stop health risk brackets.

    However,

    • On the other hand, the individual mandate and premium subsidies will provide incentives for individuals in good health to obtain coverage

    So, what's actually going to happen, is that anyone in bad health won't face higher premiums, but they will face lower subsidies. Basically, the private insurance companies can't "discriminate" based on health, but the government can.

    And as this bill is lauded by people who:

    • want to help the people who would need subsidies
    • people who will receive subsidies.

    This mostly affects them.

    And the second factor.

    Many plans are being categorized as "Cadillac plans". A modest plan with free yearly checkups is reaching that boundary.
    So people in bad health that need more coverage are going to face the need to buy a "cadillac" plan and face high tax charges.

    Once again, the government gets to discriminate, but not private insurance.

    No, everyone's premium gets to go up, so that the Massive Fucking baby boomer generation can see lower premiums. Well, guess what, they are mostly on Medicare/aid anyway.

    What's interesting to me, is that I'm starting to see doctors based their practice on subscription.
    So, you pay $150 a month and get access to any time care.
    Then you buy the bronziest insurance you can get, with the lowest out of pocket maximum.

    Much much better than anything I've seen offered by Cadillac plans even.



  • @Maciejasjmj said:

    And if you stroking your ego on poor fat Ted actually makes him reconsider his lifestyle, then I

    Do you have any evidence it will?



  • @blakeyrat said:

    1

    You: "Hey Ted, we're going rock climbing on Saturday. I have a coupon for a party of four, but only 3 people signed up... you wanna come?"

    2

    You: "Hey Ted, I'm going rock climbing on Saturday. I have to invite Dave, that guy's kind of a jerk, but I know you can't come because you're too fucking fat and unfit to participate."

    sigh

    That's my options?

    Or, or, are we suggesting that the following statement must mean one of those two things.

    "Hey Ted, I'm really concerned about your health. I'm part of a causal exercise program and I'd like to invite you."

    Because I'm pretty sure that "body positivity" crowd consider the above statement equivalent to #2.



  • @xaade said:

    Because I'm pretty sure that "body positivity" crowd consider the above statement equivalent to #2.

    Ok well I'm not going to argue with the strawmen in your head. You can have your own little private "in your head" debate with them, if you like.



  • Not expecting you to.

    Just expressing how frustrating it is to suddenly find this to be in the PC realm.



  • @xaade said:

    Or, or, are we suggesting that the following statement must mean one of those two things.

    "Hey Ted, I'm really concerned about your health. I'm part of a causal exercise program and I'd like to invite you."

    Well considering rock climbing isn't "casual exercise", I'd say there's no way that statement is equivalent to either of the statements that @blakeyrat presented.

    Second off, you are much more likely to get the person involved if you just say something like, "Hey Ted, some buddies and I are doing {X} on Saturday. You want to come along?" Mentioning that you are concerned about their health will usually just (mentally) put them on the defensive.

    It's not about PC, it's about how people function.


  • ♿ (Parody)

    Of course, for activities like rock climbing, there's often a weight limit due to stuff like equipment.



  • @boomzilla said:

    Of course, for activities like rock climbing, there's often a weight limit due to stuff like equipment.

    There is that, but I was talking about how rock climbing isn't casual. It is a strenuous, full body workout. Anyone who claims otherwise has been climbing for years.



  • @RaceProUK said:

    For the record, if I ever have children, I won't be spanking them; I just don't see spanking as a desirable action to take

    Just parenthetically, withering sarcasm is every bit as effective against 3-year-olds as any form of physical punishment; arguably even more so. So there's that...


  • ♿ (Parody)

    @RaceProUK said:

    For the record, if I ever have children, I won't be spanking them; I just don't see spanking as a desirable action to take

    Rereading this bit from @tar's post, I had a good laugh. I hope you're lucky enough to have a kid that never needs to be spanked.



  • I like spanking kids and I don't even have any!



  • I like big butts and I cannot lie!



  • @cartman82 said:

    I like breast feeding kids and I don't even have any!

    FTFMe



  • An ex-coworker once related this story to me:

    He was working in a store at the time, and a little girl came up to him and asked "have you seen my mommy?" So he felt an appropriate response might be: "Your ma? Oh, she left about 10 minutes ago! Sorry, kid."

    The little girl immediately collapsed into tears, and then he had to explain to the mother (in full momma bear mode), exactly what he just said or did. I think it sounds like a day of learning was had by all involved...


  • FoxDev

    @tar said:

    So he felt an appropriate response might be: "Your ma? Oh, she left about 10 minutes ago! Sorry, kid."

    That was evil. And not nice.



  • @flabdablet said:

    Also, I hate counting calories as well, and often fail at it. Nice to find a bit of common ground.

    Ever considered using pre-packaged meals (i.e. TV dinners), considering they have a known caloric content?

    @flabdablet said:

    I also know myself well enough to have every confidence that the mechanisms that keep me fat at present would find a way to work around gut mutilation in fairly short order. So for the time being I'd rather suffer the obesity.

    Best thing ever for me was a drug called Reductil (sibutramine, an SSRI appetite suppressant). Worked fucking brilliantly: willpower in pill form. One of those a day and I was losing weight without even trying. All the compulsive patterns around food just went away; I felt like a normal human being for the first time in my life. Expensive though at $80/week.

    I'd been on it for six months and dropped 15kg when the manufacturer withdrew it after a study showed that it increased the risk of heart disease.


    Ouch -- although have you considered that other SSRI and SNRI drugs will likely have similar effects? Worth talking to your doctor about, IMO.



  • @tarunik said:

    known caloric content

    yeah, but because those are empty calories, you just end up hungry afterwards.

    Of course, nothing wrong with mixing in some protein powder.... yum.



  • @xaade said:

    protein powder.... yum.

    ...said nobody, ever.



  • @flabdablet said:

    Going cold turkey on food is not.

    Unless it's Thanksgiving leftovers.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    No; of course not. In the US, you always have the right to say whatever you want. With very few limitations.

    Among those limitations would be saying anything that is politically incorrect or controversial in any way in a public forum. That results in death threats, ostracization, and lack of future employ.



  • Some people are not as obsessed with living as long as possible, or being as healthy as possible, or as fit as possible, or as wealthy as possible, or as famous as possible, or anything else as much as some people are.

    I'm 5'11", 200 Lbs and something like 15% fat. I don't know a goddam thing about whether or not that's good or bad or whatever. I don't care. My ex was constantly all over my ass about how fat I am. As far as I know, no one looks at me and thinks of me as fat. My friends and family don't. My doctor doesn't. But this one woman in my life was on a mission to convince me that I was a fat, worthless, slob.

    I have never cared about how I looked until this woman got into my life, and now that we are not together anymore, I can't stop thinking about it.

    So all I can say is this: everyone is fat compared to someone. Everyone is skinny compared to someone. This is the internet: everyone is a monster compared to someone else.

    I've personally met exactly one fat-shamer in my life, and she was a deeply fucked up person.

    It would not surprise me if a lot of fat-shamers are also similary fucked in the head and have really screwed views of what the human body should look like. Or how people should eat. Or what people should eat.

    People who engage in this kind of behavior generally have some agenda aside from the totally innocent, "This is for your own good!" kind of bullshit. They usually want to sell you on a diet or a workout routine or a belief system of some sort.

    Shame is a horrible way to sell products. Find a better way to peddle your wares. Honestly, shame is a crowded market. A variety of major world religions have the shame market all locked up. You can't win that way.



  • Wolfram|Alpha is a fat-shamer.



  • @Groaner said:

    Among those limitations would be saying anything that is politically incorrect or controversial in any way in a public forum. That results in death threats, ostracization, and lack of future employ.

    This bullshit. What are you, 12?

    You have the right to say whatever you want. Other people also have the right to say whatever they want. For example, they can ostracize you or refuse to hire you. There's no double-standard or conspiracy here.

    Death threats are a different matter.


Log in to reply