Ask the entrepreneurs advice
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That is the correct answer. I have a lot better luck in person.
My cousin is still in his single years. Occasionally we will hit the bars together. He is a pretty good-looking guy, very successful in life, but no confidence. We once had this approximation of a conversation:
She's cute. Go talk to her.
You say it like it is that easy...
It is, just go talk to her. What's the worst that could happen?
I don't know?
Are you imagining some scene out of a movie where you say hi, she throws a drink in your face and the whole bar laughs at you until you run out in disgrace?
I gue....no.
Just go talk to her, the worst she can do is say no thank you and you walk away.
But that's humiliating.
Why?
Because people will see and know what happened?
We live in a city of well over a million people, you are unlikely to see any of these people ever again, and if you do they are not going to recognize you as "That guy who got shot down at a bar that one time." Do you think I am going to make fun of you?
.....no. But still, it is not that easy.
Sure it is, follow me. (led him over there, introduced him to her and bought both of them a drink on my tab)
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Sure it is, follow me
I don't know what it is about dating that makes people suddenly act like they've been dropped in the midst of an alien culture and they're terrified they'll give offense and get shot. Seriously >.> My friend was anxious about getting coffee with a prospect from a dating site. I pointed out, the worst* that happens is they don't hit it off, and he loses an hour or so in a coffee shop. Woo?
* (Technically, I suppose, both scenarios could end with rape and murder and cannibalism, but that's vanishingly unlikely)
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Since we're talking about dating now, here's an amusing anecdote my sister posted on FB yesterday: she was texting a guy, who told her dinner was a lot for a first date, and he just wanted to get naked.
She said "cool story" and then put the screenshots on fb.
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And there goes the thread.
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And there goes the thread.
it was good while it lasted
** and don't tell me that what she said **
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Have a +1 of WAT.
That was basically the conversation. "Wanna go to $restaurant?" "maybe, or just a drink? first date dinner is a lot." "seriously?" "Yeah. we should hook up." "What does that even mean?" "NM" "all right then" "just wanted to get naked with you." "Good story. Remember when I told I'm sick of dealing with guys from $town ? this is what I was talking about"
You gotta figure that worked a couple times when he was 22, so he never grew out of trying it. It probably works every once in a while, on someone who never grew out of being the high school slut, or whatever.
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And there goes the thread.
I didn't start it. I would have posted on the funny stuff thread if it hadn't already been derailed. I won't object if mods move those posts.
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I didn't start it. I would have posted on the funny stuff thread if it hadn't already been derailed. I won't object if mods move those posts.
Meh. Interest had dwindled anyway it appears.
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Meh. Interest had dwindled anyway it appears.
Has anyone categorized a list of TDWTF LawsTM? Like "#1: all topics will drift, possibly even those in One Post" ?
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Meh. Interest had dwindled anyway it appears.
I usually don't like changing other people titles - it feels like you get violated.
but lets revive this thread.
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Has anyone categorized a list of TDWTF LawsTM? Like "#1: all topics will drift, possibly even those in One Post" ?
Well, I think that at least so far, we have not hit @blakeyrat's law yet: We had no bitching about Discourse in this particular thread...
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I usually don't like changing other people titles - it feels like you get violated.but lets revive this thread.
Ha! No worries man. If interest wanes, interest wanes. I take no offense to it. Just because I geek out on something does not mean that everyone else has to also.
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If interest wanes, interest wanes.
Hey--changing titles can keep the topic fresh, and retroactively keep the topic on topic at the cost of making older posts be off topic.
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So question for the original topic... when do you call it quits on a venture that isn't apparently working? Do you allow for 'maybe it'll be better tomorrow' and if so how long?
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Ideally, well before the word "eviction" is likely to come up in conversation and you're not talking about cache policy.
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My cousin is still in his single years. Occasionally we will hit the bars together.
I read that as "single digits" and thought "Dude. If he's nine or less, leave him out of the bars."
Also, this whole thread just reads like "@Polygeekery's making a motivational tape". Yikes.
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That was basically the conversation. "Wanna go to $restaurant?" "maybe, or just a drink? first date dinner is a lot." "seriously?" "Yeah. we should hook up." "What does that even mean?" "NM" "all right then" "just wanted to get naked with you." "Good story. Remember when I told I'm sick of dealing with guys from $town ? this is what I was talking about"
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Has anyone categorized a list of TDWTF LawsTM?
Not yet. Stick them in the FAQ if it's bothering you ;)
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So question for the original topic... when do you call it quits on a venture that isn't apparently working? Do you allow for 'maybe it'll be better tomorrow' and if so how long?
Great question. Is this something you are going through right now?
This is not really something that there is an easy answer to as there are a lot of reasons why a venture might be "apparently not working". It could be a matter of revenue, it could be a matter of technology hurdles that are difficult to overcome, licensing issues, running out of capital, or just plain being burnt out and over it.
If you can see on the horizon the possibility of overcoming what is "apparently not working", then you may want to solider on. If not, it may be time to shutter the project, go lick your wounds and when the scars start to heal you can take an honest assessment of what went wrong so that you do not make the same mistake again.
As always, never venture anything you cannot afford to lose. Everyone makes mistakes, that is how I learn best. I just do not put myself in the position of making a terminal mistake.
With all this being said, don't quit too quickly. It has been said by men much wiser than I am that, "The urge to quit is strongest right before you succeed." Just because something is not working, doesn't mean that it won't work. You might just need to step back and look at it objectively, or have someone else with knowledge of business look it over and see if they can see what you are missing.
Also, this whole thread just reads like "@Polygeekery's making a motivational tape". Yikes.
Yeah, I try to not sound that way. Business is something I am passionate about though and I don't think it is something that is beyond the capability of learning for most people. My father who taught me a lot of what I know about business used to always so eloquently say, "This shit ain't magic." ;)
I just think that a lot of people do see it as magic. It isn't. Hell, the math behind it may be attached to some pretty weighty terms, but it is just basic math with basic concepts behind it. People hear things like "fixed and variable costs" or "sunk cost analysis" and it sounds like Greek to them, but it is a hell of a lot less complex than what the terminology make it sound like.
And this is the best place to discuss these things because it really is a lucrative industry. The profit curve for technology is like a hockey stick. As soon as your fixed costs are covered, the curve goes straight up. What's the barrier to entry for most people here? Just the idea, and their time. With services like Digital Ocean, AWS, etc., you can get off the ground. If you want to own your own hardware, you can pick up a great server for $1,000 off of eBay and co-locate it for under $100/month. In our datacenter, you can rent a 42U cabinet in shared space for ~$1,000/month when you need to expand (depending upon how much power you use, etc.)
But yes, I completely agree that if you read what I wrote with the right mindset, it seems like some self-help tape. Or like one of those "get rich quick" things on late night TV. The difference is, I am not trying to sell you anything. ;)
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Why not? Call yourself an entrepreneur?
I am not trying to sell you anything. But, since you brought it up, do you make any decisions in regards to your company's IT services? ;)
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Stick them in the FAQ if it's bothering you
Is there some dirty, double entendre that I am missing here? <I CBA to figure out which silly accent character I need where in that word, get over it>
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haha. Unfortunately, no. If I could I'd get them to pay for some decent support software. Emails are not a good method of keeping track of tens of clients with individual problems that need looking in to
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Is there some dirty, double entendre that I am missing here?
No. I just think that version of the FAQ is feeling a bit unloved at the moment.
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haha. Unfortunately, no. If I could I'd get them to pay for some decent support software. Emails are not a good method of keeping track of tens of clients with individual problems that need looking in to
I hear forum software is an inexpensive solution....
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hmmm this seems like the best thread for this.
I have a friend, CaldariCoder* for the purposes of this conversation, who is trying to break into the IT field. He's got about 3 years worth of his bachelors degree in computer science completed before he had to drop out for lack of funds, and is positively one of the most brilliant minds i interact with on a regular basis. Still a young coder, but has plenty of talent.
He's currently working in a customer facing non-technical field that pays the bills, but only just, no money left over to pursue finishing the degree. He's been trying to break into the field for a while but hasn't ever gotten a call back from HR, let alone an actual interview.
What can y'all Entrepreneurs and hiring types recommend as things he can do to improve his resume and get past the gauntlet of HR so he can get a job in IT?
*that's one of my domains, i keep meaning to do something with it soon.
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He's currently working in a customer facing non-technical field that pays the bills, but only just, no money left over to pursue finishing the degree. He's been trying to break into the field for a while but hasn't ever gotten a call back from HR, let alone an actual interview.
What can y'all Entrepreneurs and hiring types recommend as things he can do to improve his resume and get past the gauntlet of HR so he can get a job in IT?
Have him take a look at one of the smaller outfits. Smaller businesses like mine are typically done by self-starters. They are also less likely to have an HR department with useless vetting programs. He will be quite likely to interview with the owner and actually have a shot.
Does he have anything up on GitHub? SO? Any other sources that he can point to and say, "Here is what I have done."? That will mean shit to an HR department, but would mean the world to someone like me.
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Also, see if there are any social groups he could attend. Something like a Meetup group for coders, etc. From there he could make friends, pursue his interests and then have someone on the inside to to go bat for him.
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hmm.. interesting ideas. I'll pass them along. thanks!
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hmm.. interesting ideas. I'll pass them along. thanks!
No worries. If there is any other way I could help, just ask. Getting started is the hardest part, but it is not unpossible.
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Have him take a look at one of the smaller outfits.
This is how I got my start without yet having a degree. (Admittedly, in that particular case, the company called up the college looking for a student as a part-time/temporary summer student, and then later hired me full-time when I proved to be useful.)
That first foot in the door can be tough, but once you're there, experience counts for a lot more than the degree. @accalia's friend should probably also put up code on github or whatever.
I'm an official developer in a (now-defunct) roguelike because I read a comment in one of the rec.games.roguelike.* newsgroups complaining about the RNG, and I submitted a tested patch with a superior one, not that I've ever mentioned that professionally, but I hear people talking about just that kind of thing these days.
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Something like a Meetup group for coders, etc.
Or a makerspace, if he's into that as well.
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Not everyone is so lucky, and while we might be able to pick ourselves up by our bootstraps and get a well-paying job or even start our own business, doing so requires a certain amount of talent, intellect and just plain luck. The fact that 80% of new businesses fail (and the fact that 90+% of candidates that I've interviewed are woefully under-qualified for the positions in question) indicates that these are not viable options for everyone. The 4'11" basketball player is probably never going to be able to dunk.
I decided to put my reply over here, as I feel it is more applicable.
Can any person be the CEO of a major multi-national corporation? Of course not. You have to work within your limitations. But I do feel like any person can start and run a successful business. It is just a matter of what scale they are going to own a business at.
I have a very good friend who is unlikely to ever become a member of MENSA, but he has an innate ability to figure out anything mechanical. With a little bit of coaching, he started a small remodeling business about 3 years ago and now makes a few multiples of what he had before.
As I mentioned somewhere else, I have recently been looking for a housekeeper. Most of the women that I have interviewed are nice enough and some of them strike me as quite business savvy, but anyone could start a business cleaning houses with little more skill than just attention to detail and how to operate a toilet brush and vacuum cleaner.
I have another friend who started a business with little more than a lawnmower and leaf blower. He had no experience with running a business prior to starting.
If you look around the web at places that have a lot of clickbait feel-good stories, you can find tons of stories about people with various handicaps starting businesses of many types. Now, if you want to tell yourself that it is impossible for you to start a business, you will find a way to convince yourself of that.
You don't even need to know all the technical terms to start a business. Over the years I have worked with old timers who would look at you strange if you used a term like "landed cost". They just want to know what the real cost of something is after it is delivered. ;)
Or, as my father used to always say, "This shit ain't magic." when he talked about business. It really isn't.
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This post is deleted!
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Are you imagining some scene out of a movie where you say hi, she throws a drink in your face and the whole bar laughs at you until you run out in disgrace?
Don't tempt me. I'm really good at this*.
The worst that could happen is that you will be accused of sexual harassment, go to criminal court, be found guilty, then shipped off to serve a term of no less than five years in a federal-pound-me-in-the-ass prison. After that, you will be unable to find work that isn't flipping burgers or digging ditches due to having sex offender status, or anywhere to live being that you can't ever live within 10 miles of a school. Eventually, a mob of SJWs will band together (under the hashtag #DeathToIntolerantPrivilegedShitlordRapists) with pitchforks and torches to dispense vigilante justice on "that privileged shitlord rapist" and in the aftermath, you die of blood loss.*
**This is an example of self-parody intertwined with social commentary.
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self-parody
Man, you have some really terrible past. *taps on the back with a ten-mile pole*
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Can any person be the CEO of a major multi-national corporation? Of course not. You have to work within your limitations.
It's upsetting if you've wanted to be an NBA star all your life and you're too short to get in. But it is healthy to know one's own limits, as it provides a basis for figuring out what else one can do.
But I do feel like any person can start and run a successful business. It is just a matter of what scale they are going to own a business at.
Seems reasonable enough.
Or, as my father used to always say, "This shit ain't magic." when he talked about business. It really isn't.
I sure hope so. Legal/marketing seems to be a big challenge, but there also seems to be a relatively easy solution to the former from that other video you posted. Specialization of labor and all.
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I sure hope so. Legal/marketing seems to be a big challenge, but there also seems to be a relatively easy solution to the former from that other video you posted. Specialization of labor and all.
Legal/marketing is not something you have to worry about when you first start, unless you are doing a partnership. If you can do it all yourself, just get started. Build something. Find a need and try to fill it. Just get moving.
Later on when it becomes necessary, you need to find a good lawyer. They are not as expensive as you might think. Like with everything else, don't dwell on it and make it a point to quantify things. I meet with a lot of folks who have entrepreneurial ambitions and when I mention that they need a contract they say, "I can't afford a lawyer right now." They think this because they have not looked and they expect the worst. I just had a boilerplate contract worked up for a new venture and my lawyer charged me $350. Not as much as most people think. And I have a really good lawyer.
Marketing can largely be started by yourself and you can work your way in to paying for it out of cashflow. When I mentioned earlier about paying yourself as little as possible after you start in order to save money for other things, this is one of the line items. Also, think of creative ways to pay for such things. Perhaps you can do trade? We have another project in the pipeline and I have a good friend in marketing and he made the offer to do all the marketing for it in trade for equity. If I can work out the deal to where it is mutually beneficial and I can put in a buyout clause, I may take him up on it. It loads the costs on the backend, but it minimizes my upfront expenses.
There are always creative ways to get things done if you are motivated. On the flipside, if you want to look for reasons not to do something, you will find them.
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Marketing is too important to leave until "later". Marketing is how you understand what needs you need to fill and who to sell to and how to sell to them. Indeed, building the product is the second marketing step, after you've figure out which need you are going to fill.
Legal is a different thing, for sure. Remember that if you are a sole-proprietor, in principle, you face unlimited liability. What this really means is that you face the business's operating risk. The more risk the business takes on, the more on the hook you are. It's important to remember, because it's not a scary thing. It is manageable.
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Marketing is too important to leave until "later". Marketing is how you understand what needs you need to fill and who to sell to and how to sell to them. Indeed, building the product is the second marketing step, after you've figure out which need you are going to fill.
I would put that under market research, not marketing. Marketing is something that you do when you get close to having a saleable product or service.
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Legal/marketing is not something you have to worry about when you first start, unless you are doing a partnership. If you can do it all yourself, just get started. Build something. Find a need and try to fill it. Just get moving.
True, that's a problem that requires a product before it becomes a problem.
Legal is a different thing, for sure. Remember that if you are a sole-proprietor, in principle, you face unlimited liability. What this really means is that you face the business's operating risk. The more risk the business takes on, the more on the hook you are. It's important to remember, because it's not a scary thing. It is manageable.
Sole proprietorship/partnership seems like a Bad Ideaâ„¢; I'd probably go C corporation or LLC.
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I'd probably go C corporation or LLC.
Starting out, an LLC would be the saner option. C corps carry a lot more bureaucracy with them, which would take a while to get in to and explain and anything you miss could potentially lead to a future piercing of your corporate veil.
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Sole proprietorship is what you do every day of your life, under your name. Sign up for a personal loan? You face "unlimited liability" (or rather, the liability incurred by the loan). Sign a lease? You face "unlimited liability" (or rather, the liability incurred by the lease). Etc.
The point is, you should only pay the premium of putting a cap on your losses if you have a significant exposure to losses. In fact, you can quantify the premium you should pay, using Black-Scholes or another option pricing model.
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The point is, you should only pay the premium of putting a cap on your losses if you have a significant exposure to losses. In fact, you can quantify the premium you should pay, using Black-Scholes or another option pricing model.
Yeah, but the costs of an LLC are so small that it rarely makes sense not to. Overhead is minimal also, as for taxation purposes it functions as a pass-through entity.
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The costs are not small. You can buy like 1800 VXX put options for the cost of an LLC. And you can actually profit from the options.
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The impression I get from reading both of you is that it isn't something that you hold back on getting started on running a business for, but it is something that is worth sorting out relatively soon after you get started out.
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That might be fair enough, but consider that the 600$ is TEN times my YEARLY operating costs (aside from labor, which is 0 at the moment). And provides virtually no benefit to an web-only company (where there is virtually no scope for my business causing damage to anybody)
You really do need to consider the cost of insurance, which is what an LLC is.
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> [Polygeekery]
Or, as my father used to always say, "This shit ain't magic." when he talked about business. It really isn't.
I sure hope so
My first real job (that is, not high-school part-time kind of thing) I told my boss "I didn't get all this businessman stuff" once. He picked up a ruler and tapped me on the head and shoulders like a knighting ceremony, and declared me to be a businessman.
He was being facetious, but at a basic level, it's definitely not magic. Some people make enough to get by buy buying stuff out of catalogs and selling it at flea markets. Years ago at a flea market I saw this really cool thing some guy was selling that was basically half recliner/half computer workstation.
