Angular.js is dead, so let's talk about everything else



  • Angular 2.0 Core by Igor Minar & Tobias Bosch at ng-europe 2014 – 30:15
    — ng-europe

    The video is terrible. These two guys are too awkward for a script like this.

    But TRWTF is how stupid are the fans in the audience. Laughing and applauding at the news that all their code has just been abandoned by Google and left to rot into "legacy". Silverlight people at least had the brains to see the writing on the wall. How long is the denial phase, again?

    TLDW for the lazy ones. Google has basically decided to invent a new SPA framework and named it angular 2.0. Current angular 1.x is an evolutionary dead end.

    There's no update path. No piece of the old code you get to keep. Just throw away all the weird angular 1.x constructs you've spent years mastering, and start anew. Might as well move to ember or react and away from these jokers' clutches.

    Gong! Gong! RIP angular.js.

    That's what you get when you trust google to provide you with programming tools. They have an abysmal record so far.



  • @cartman82 said:

    That's what you get when you trust google to provide you with programming tools. They have an abysmal record so far.

    Code that compiled with Go 1 still compiles with the latest Go.



  • @cartman82 said:

    Gong! Gong! RIP angular.js.

    Ding Dong The Witch Is Dead – 04:15
    — man4theworld

    @cartman82 said:

    That's what you get when you trust google to provide you with programming tools. They have an abysmal record so far.

    Paging @ben_lubar... Oh damn, hanzo'd.



  • @ben_lubar said:

    Code that compiled with Go 1 still compiles with the latest Go.

    Turd I shat out today smells the same as turds I shat out as a child. It's still a turd.

    Filed under: Each google programming tool sucks, but not in the same way. Duh


  • SockDev

    @ben_lubar said:

    Code that compiled with Go 1 still compiles with the latest Go.

    but it is still Go.

    QED


  • Grade A Premium Asshole

    Who do we talk to about taking Ember.JS to tend the rabbits?

    Lennie Doesn't Get To Tend The Rabbits (sadly) – [01:35..01:55] 01:55
    — mclarenV12


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @cartman82 said:

    TLDW for the lazy ones. Google has basically decided to invent a new SPA framework and named it angular 2.0. Current angular 1.x is an evolutionary dead end.

    If this bothers you, take the 1.x code, fix a few bugs in it, and call it Angular 3.0. Watch as this irritates people a lot, especially people who ought to know better.

    I know where the Evil Ideas Thread is. :smiling_imp:


  • Grade A Premium Asshole

    Orrrrrr, Angular 2.1. Just to screw with them.



  • Awful video.

    Thanks angular team, making all the stuff I learnt a year ago obsolete.



  • Then rename it to "Angular Classic 2.0" and the other one to "Angular Modern" for extra confusion. Then the third version can be "Angular One" and the other one "Angular 10". No wait, that's another company...



  • I watched 2 minutes in the middle and it was painful to listen to. I know their first language isn't English ... but it was bloody painful.



  • @ben_lubar said:

    Code that compiled with Go 1 still compiles with the latest Go.

    I note you said compiles and not works



  • You just wait. OTOH, you're comparing a PL™ with a SPA framework.



  • Complaining that you can't do shit you did in 1.x when you move to 2.0 (no example here because I know neither) is like complaining that you can't do shit you did in Windows XP when you move to Windows 7 (example: dumping user data in Program Files). All computer systems should be rewritten and redesigned from scratch every few years. Backwards compatibility is good only in short term.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @Gaska said:

    All computer systems should be rewritten and redesigned from scratch every few years.

    Does this include starting over completely with everyone's data? If it does, get ready for users to hate your guts.



  • I don't think the comparison is fair. First, we're talking about a whole rewrite on something that hasn't been around for more than a few years. On the other, this is not about some API changes, but a whole rewrite that simply won't work with your existing code.



  • I think you guys are whooshing a bit. Nice work, @Gaska, IF THAT'S YOUR REAL NAME.



  • @ben_lubar said:

    Code that compiled with Go 1 still compiles with the latest Go.

    Can I talk to you about Jesus?

    @cartman82 said:

    Turd I shat out today smells the same as turds I shat out as a child.

    IANA pediatrician, but AFAIK this is highly unusual.

    @Gaska said:

    Backwards compatibility is good only in short term.

    Maybe a little longer than the short term.

    Isn't this a current major issue with Python 2 and 3? I wonder if Angular 1 and Angular 2 will be even more different.



  • @VaelynPhi said:

    IANA pediatrician, but AFAIK this is highly unusual.

    The samples in my cold storage confirm it. They even taste the same.

    @VaelynPhi said:

    Isn't this a current major issue with Python 2 and 3? I wonder if Angular 1 and Angular 2 will be even more different.

    You can easily convert python 2 code to python 3. Or even write python 3 compatible code that runs on 2.

    As far as I can tell, in ang2 you won't be able to reuse ANYTHING from ang1. Not templates. Not controllers. Maybe not even the backend glue code. It's madness.



  • @cartman82 said:

    The samples in my cold storage confirm it. They even taste the same.

    Your commitment to digestive science is... commendable.

    @cartman82 said:

    You can easily convert python 2 code to python 3. Or even write python 3 compatible code that runs on 2.

    This may be (especially for someone better at Python than I), but my recent experience trying to use the two together was not enjoyable. (It was working with the Ubuntu panel, so maybe TRWTF was Ubuntu.)

    @cartman82 said:

    As far as I can tell, in ang2 you won't be able to reuse ANYTHING from ang1. Not templates. Not controllers. Maybe not even the backend glue code. It's madness.

    Maybe they're programming the new angular at... right angles?



  • @VaelynPhi said:

    Isn't this a current major issue with Python 2 and 3?

    If by "current" you mean "for the last 6 years", yes. And sadly people don't exactly seem to be in a rush to switch. You still find popular libraries that don't work with 3.



  • @dkf said:

    Does this include starting over completely with everyone's data?

    No; code is code, data is data.

    @Eldelshell said:

    I don't think the comparison is fair. First, we're talking about a whole rewrite on something that hasn't been around for more than a few years

    So? If their original design was flawed, they should have rewritten it even sooner.

    @Eldelshell said:

    On the other, this is not about some API changes, but a whole rewrite that simply won't work with your existing code

    As long as they don't delete latest Angular 1.x from all the internets, it's okay.

    @cartman82 said:

    Nice work, @Gaska, IF THAT'S YOUR REAL NAME

    I don't think there's anyone in the world who would want their child to be called Goose. At least my parents don't.

    @VaelynPhi said:

    Isn't this a current major issue with Python 2 and 3? I wonder if Angular 1 and Angular 2 will be even more different

    This is what happens if you maintain old version when new is already released. They should have frozen 2 completely except for security patches.



  • @Gaska said:

    As long as they don't delete latest Angular 1.x from all the internets, it's okay.

    One of the "features" of Angular is that is a Google thing and it's easier to sell to mgmt. If it's forked, it's not a Google thing.



  • @Eldelshell said:

    One of the "features" of Angular is that is a Google thing and it's easier to sell to mgmt. If it's forked, it's not a Google thing.

    Exactly. That's a major reason why their crappy languages and frameworks aren't outright laughed out of the room.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @Gaska said:

    I don't think there's anyone in the world who would want their child to be called Goose.

    What about the parents of that guy in Top Gun?



  • @cartman82 said:

    That's a major reason why their crappy languages and frameworks aren't outright laughed out of the room.

    Remind me again, how many things use protobuf?

    Every docker instance out there is running on Go. That includes this forum.

    Who invented QUIC? SPDY? Chromium?

    The reason Google's products are used is that they are good products that do what they're supposed to.



  • @ben_lubar said:

    The reason Google's products are used is that they are good products that do what they're supposed to.

    Until they get canned for no reason! Like Google Reader!

    Oh wait. YouTube is a "good product" that "does what it's supposed to"? Hah. That's an elaborate way of saying "monopoly everybody hates".



  • Thanks for responding to my statement about products with a complaint about services. It really has something to do with my point.



  • You're quite welcome.


  • Grade A Premium Asshole

    @Gaska said:

    All computer systems should be rewritten and redesigned from scratch every few years. Backwards compatibility is good only in short term.

    Are you like an anti-blakeyrat? BizarroBlakey?



  • @boomzilla said:

    One benefit is that they're too busy re-passing old good stuff to come up with new bad stuff.

     


  • Grade A Premium Asshole

    I see what you did there...



  • @blakeyrat said:

    Oh wait. YouTube is a "good product" that "does what it's supposed to"? Hah. That's an elaborate way of saying "monopoly everybody hates".

    Outlook is a good product which does what it's supposed to do.



  • @ben_lubar said:

    Remind me again, how many things use protobuf?

    No idea. Never heard.

    @ben_lubar said:

    Every docker instance out there is running on Go. That includes this forum.

    And a lot of great sites are running on angular. So what?

    @ben_lubar said:

    Who invented QUIC? SPDY?

    Never heard.

    @ben_lubar said:

    Chromium?

    That's a user product. Although its dev tools are decent enough.

    @ben_lubar said:

    The reason Google's products are used is that they are good products that do what they're supposed to.

    And yet, never exceptional.

    That's my point. All these tools and frameworks sort of work and have some measure of success. But Google is one of the richest tech companies in the world. They get all the best programmers and give them the best conditions. Including a lot of time to hack away on their passion projects outside of the daily churn.

    Their dev products should be mind-blowing. World changing. And what do we get instead? GWT? Dart? Go? And now angular. All with some merit, but meh in the end.

    I just expect better from Google, but never get it.



  • @Gaska said:

    As long as they don't delete latest Angular 1.x from all the internets, it's okay.

    Because browsers never update do they?



  • @FrostCat said:

    What about the parents of that guy in Top Gun?

    You mean Nick Bradshaw?

    @ben_lubar said:

    Remind me again, how many things use protobuf?

    Only legacy products and people who didn't hear about Cap'n Proto.

    @ben_lubar said:

    The reason the very handful of Google's products that they did right are used is that they are good products that do what they're supposed to and haven't been fucked up yet.

    FTFY.

    @Intercourse said:

    Are you like an anti-blakeyrat? BizarroBlakey?

    Not really. I agree with Blakey that console-based human interface doubling as API is a bad idea.

    @cartman82 said:

    Their dev products should be mind-blowing. World changing. And what do we get instead? GWT? Dart? Go? And now angular. All with some merit, but meh in the end.

    Both Protobuf and Chrome were pretty awesome. Except Protobuf is now inferior to Cap'n Proto in every way (fun fact: the author of both is the same person), and Chrome is getting worse and worse with every release since v15 or something.

    @lucas said:

    Because browsers never update do they?

    Does Angular need special browser support besides proper JavaScript implementation? Boy, that sucks.



  • @Gaska said:

    All computer systems should be rewritten and redesigned from scratch every few years.

    Yes - I know - Joel. But he does have some good points to make.



  • I wasn't talking from business point of view - I was talking from technical point of view. Netscape went out of business due to the above, but they did make a better browser than they could do without rewriting from scratch.





  • @Gaska said:

    Does Angular need special browser support besides proper JavaScript implementation? Boy, that sucks.

    Browser side apis that aren't anything to do with JavaScript might change in the future and then you are stuck using a depreciated framework which you have to maintain your own incompatible fork of it.



  • @flabdablet said:

    Here's [an influential Netscape developer's take on this issue][1].
    [1]: http://www.jwz.org/doc/cadt.html
    Reading the esteemed Zawinski's article does leave me a tad puzzled. If a software was written from scratch, how could you possibly recreate all of the same bugs? I can imagine that once in a while you would get the same bug, but I can't imagine that this would be a regular occurrence.



  • I think he is saying that you are going to create a whole new set of bugs that won't ever get solved.



  • @lucas said:

    I think he is saying that you are going to create a whole new set of bugs that won't ever get solved.

    I re-read it, and I still think he's talking about the old bugs, not new bugs.



  • But rewriting everything from scratch is fun (because "this time it will be done right", ha ha) and so that's what happens, over and over again.

    1. Load of bugs in current version
    2. Bugs are left there forever while dev on "new and shiny" continues, which is typically a rewrite.
    3. Bugs are stale and nobody can be bother to check them. Won't get fixed as they are in the old version
    4. New version is now current version ... go back to step 1.

    Pretty much what happened in KDE 3 -> 4 and Gnome 2 -> 3.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @Gaska said:

    What about the parents of that guy in Top Gun?

    You mean Nick Bradshaw?

    No, Goose. That's even how he's listed in IMDB.



  • @Gaska said:

    and Chrome is getting worse and worse with every release since v15 or something.

    Chrome, get off @Gaska's lawn!



  • @cartman82 said:

    Their dev products should be mind-blowing. World changing. And what do we get instead? GWT? Dart? Go? And now angular. All with some merit, but meh in the end.

    I think you need to read Frederick P. Brooks' essay No Silver Bullet again. It's just as true today as it was when it was written.



  • @lucas said:

    Load of bugs in current version
    Bugs are left there forever while dev on "new and shiny" continues, which is typically a rewrite.
    Bugs are stale and nobody can be bother to check them. Won't get fixed as they are in the old version
    New version is now current version ... go back to step 1.

    The one pissing me off currently: Open Broadcaster Software, OBS.

    It doesn't work with my capture card. There's no technical reason it shouldn't work (it works with some brands and not others), it's just a bug.

    So I go into their bug tracker, it's reported, but what's the comment? "This won't be fixed now because we're rewriting OBS from scratch for version 2.0." What do you think the odds are version 2.0 will ever be finished? Ever? I'd put it at maybe 1:5. ... maybe.



  • @lucas said:

    > But rewriting everything from scratch is fun (because "this time it will be done right", ha ha) and so that's what happens, over and over again.

    1. Load of bugs in current version
    2. Bugs are left there forever while dev on "new and shiny" continues, which is typically a rewrite.
    3. Bugs are stale and nobody can be bother to check them. Won't get fixed as they are in the old version
    4. New version is now current version ... go back to step 1.

    Pretty much what happened in KDE 3 -> 4 and Gnome 2 -> 3.

    Sounds like the company that I'm leaving. They just went all-in with Angular. :laughing:



  • @FrostCat said:

    No, Goose. That's even how he's listed in IMDB.

    Who is this "Goose", and why is he listed on IMDB?


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