How slow is Discourse on your mobile?


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @boomzilla said:

    This thread is the top result on google.

    Now, sure.

    I see the second result--which shows I was slightly off--is the correct reference, which is a bit disappointing. I had hoped that would be a bit obscure.

    As it happens, I have a credit among the many other bug-finders in that game.


  • FoxDev

    Ancient Domains Of Mystery

    specifically the Abolish Law flavor text.

    at least according to ten minutes googling.


  • ♿ (Parody)

    Yeah, I saw that result, too, and it didn't mean anything to me so I ignored it in favor of the superior TDWTF result.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @izzion said:

    How much $$ is being spent (or lost) doing those 2 extra hours worth of setup per computer?

    I dunno about you but I can generally do other stuff while setting up a new computer.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @loopback0 said:

    We lose more time to the fact it seems to take like 2 weeks to get a new starter a computer in the first place for no logical reason whatsoever.

    If where you work is like the place where I worked that had the same problem, it's because you've got too much bureaucracy. There's paperwork that has to go to 17 different people, and it all has to go in one batch--you can't break any pieces out, so nobody can order the computer until HR's gotten your photo and printed up your badge. Does that make sense? No, but That's The Way We've Always Done ItTM


  • FoxDev

    @FrostCat said:

    I dunno about you but I can generally do other stuff while setting up a new computer.

    I tend to open a helpdesk technician and let the interns do the initial setup. once they're done it's ~20 minutes to verify their setup and deploy my code. then another ten or so smoketesting it before handing the server off to QA for testing.


  • ♿ (Parody)

    @boomzilla said:

    I just hate sitting around watching stuff not do anything.

    Of course, who doesn't? It's boring! But if you're being paid to...

    @izzion said:

    How much $$ is being spent (or lost) doing those 2 extra hours worth of setup per computer? If you have 100 developers with their computers on a 5 year replacement cycle, that's still 40 hours a year of additional expense. Even at the ye-olde-intern rate, that's a lot of extra pizzas...

    I think 3 years is more accurate... but, anyway, with 100 devs, this should not be a developer's job; someone else (ops?) needs to be responsible for the process of setting up new computers, replacements, etc. At that point, the risk of losing a day of productivity to a broken computer is worth mitigating, so while you're doing that, you get the set-up for "free".

    At 3 devs... sure, it's a waste of time, non core activity, but you're also wasting time with other stuff you could improve, and saving a ton on the lack of meetings and all that.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @accalia said:

    Ancient Domains Of Mystery

    specifically the Abolish Law flavor text.

    Close, but you get it from eating certain undead corpses. Ghouls, I think. It increases one of your stats, so it's a worthwhile thing to do.


  • ♿ (Parody)

    @apapadimoulis said:

    Of course, who doesn't? It's boring! But if you're being paid to...

    It's shitty! But if you're being paid to...
    It's painful! But if you're being paid to...
    It's kind of mean! But if you're being paid to...
    It's evil! But if you're being paid to...
    It's genocide! But if you're being paid to...


  • ♿ (Parody)

    @boomzilla said:

    genocide

    That escalated quickly!


  • FoxDev


  • ♿ (Parody)

    @apapadimoulis said:

    That escalated quickly!

    Hey, if you can't see the link between me sitting around on my hands and mass murder, that's on you, pal.



  • There would be fewer developers committing genocide if they didn't have to sit and wait for Visual Studio to install. Idle hands are the devil's playground and all that.


  • FoxDev

    @mott555 said:

    Idle hands are the devil's playground and all that.

    wanna try a little nodeJS while that install of Visual Studio progresses?

    😈



  • I gotta say, I still don't like JavaScript but Node.js is freaking awesome. I can live with a crappy language given all the good things I've encountered so far.

    Now if only someone would make Node.cs, Node.py, Node.rb, etc...


  • FoxDev

    Node.HTML?

    Node.CSS?

    😆


  • Java Dev

    Over here, they make devs set up their own systems. Last time round, that cost me 6 hours to install windows from the corporate image, get all the mandatory applications, get all the updates for all the mandatory application, verify it with the centralized monitoring system so I'm OK to go.

    Then another 2 hours to set up an ubuntu installation next to it that I'd actually be using.

    Least I had my old machine to do work on in the meantime. An installing PC just needs to be kept busy.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @accalia said:

    I tend to open a helpdesk technician

    Also, how does the helpdesk technician feel about that?


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @PleegWat said:

    Over here, they make devs set up their own systems.

    TRWTF is that the corporate image doesn't have all the applications you're supposed to use on it, if you're working at a place that does that kind of stuff.


  • FoxDev

    @FrostCat said:

    Also, how does the helpdesk technician feel about that?

    they are surprisingly copacetic about it.

    also: AUTOCORRECT! I MEANT HELPDESK TICKET!


  • Java Dev

    May have been just the updating. It's been a couple of years. Definitely took 6 hours though.

    I'd skip the windows step entirely but if the monitoring system has never seen a bare-metal windows install completed it doesn't emit a license for a VM install...


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @FrostCat said:

    If where you work is like the place where I worked that had the same problem, it's because you've got too much bureaucracy. There's paperwork that has to go to 17 different people, and it all has to go in one batch--you can't break any pieces out, so nobody can order the computer until HR's gotten your photo and printed up your badge. Does that make sense? No, but That's The Way We've Always Done ItTM

    That's from the point that HR have done whatever it is they do and the employee number is issued, which is the only prerequisite for being able to request a network login and computer. You're right though - way too much bureaucracy generally involved in such things.



  • This post is deleted!


  • @apapadimoulis said:

    Yeah, right, I don't know if this is part of the JavaScriptization of everything, or something else... but this is a completely illegitimate complaint (and yet one I hear all the time). How is it a problem to spend a couple hours getting something set up (I'd estimate 2H to set up a .NET env), when you're going to spend hundreds or thousands of hours working on a project?

    Emphasis mine, under the best circumstances and if you have a web project that needs wonky permissions and things like Classic ASP.NET app pool and URL rewriter modules and all the other bits and pieces that time easily doubles... that is kinda why Microsoft brought out the Web Platform Installer because it was never straightforward.

    For the record I don't think that setting up on my work machine VS and SQL and all the other gumpth is wasted or a huge task. However the one time I had to do a code samples in .NET for a job interview, I didn't have VS installed and they expected them back in a couple of days, it was a major source of frustration.

    Microsoft has had to slim things down to stay relevant because of the ease of use of other frameworks/runtimes most notably node. Newer developers aren't willing to put up with the problems with a lot of this legacy bollox we know how to deal with because we have spent years working with .NET.

    Obviously it depends on what sort of project you are doing, but when I am doing smaller projects I am normally under tight time constraints and I need to be productive right away and not in 2 hours time.

    I am more likely to chose something like ASP.NET over node for larger projects because it is a more mature framework with a wealth of features that I have more experience with. Even if you are doing a large ASP.NET project, using the tooling (grunt/glup/bower etc) that depends on node being present you can have a nice workflow going on that compliments Visual Studio. Microsoft has baked this stuff in with the newer version of Visual Studio, though I am stuck on 2010 at work.

    @apapadimoulis said:

    It's not, but it's the mindset. "Oh it's boring to run installers, do research, watch the little spinny do it's thing, I just want to type something in real quick, and BAM start hacking away."

    Doing research into other frameworks outside of the ASP.NET ecosystem actually broadened my horizons and I saw some of the problems I was facing (managing client side dependencies was becoming massive problem) were being solved by tooling such as bower/grunt etc.

    It nothing to do with people being bored, it is people trying to find a better way to work on the frontend. There is a big difference between the web developers of the last decade and the developers that are coming into the industry today. A lot specialise in frontend only and they are building tools that help them.

    Front end has become a lot less hacky thanks to all the so called hipster tooling you scoff at.

    @apapadimoulis said:

    Most professionals don't give a shit about this. A key part of doing one's job is doing undesirable things; that's why it's work. Only the hobbyists (i.e. you, who doesn't want to spend your evening time on things you don't enjoy), and the loud, vocal developer manchilds feel that "instant gratification" is a must-have feature of a platform.

    What is really frustrating about this conversation is that you are assuming quite a lot about me, I am not a hobbyist. I've been doing web development for the last 6 years full time and I was doing bit and pieces on my PC since 2000. I regularly muck about at home and make clones of tools I use to learn new things and try to keep my skills relevant.

    Everyone accepts that some parts of the job you are going to be doing undesirable things, but if I can find a better way of doing a task, I am going to see where I can improve or automate the process so I don't have to spend time dealing with them. As someone that is frontend focused a lot of these frameworks and tools people have built let me achieve that very easily. This lets me spend more time working on the actual functionality and delivering a better product which I think everyone can agree is what everyone wants.


  • ♿ (Parody)

    @lucas said:

    What is really frustrating about this conversation is that you are assuming quite a lot about me, I am not a hobbyist.

    Sorry, you must have gotten caught in my general ranting against developers. You said "in your evening time", so I assumed you were trying out ASPNET as part of your hobby or something. But I do stand by my overall point; evaluating the tooling used for 1000+ hours of dev work based on how quick it is to get coding is negligent.

    @lucas said:

    Everyone accepts that some parts of the job you are going to be doing undesirable things

    You'd think that's a universal... in the "I'm a rockstar developer, you're just my patron" world, it's a foreign idea.

    @lucas said:

    if I can find a better way of doing a task, I am going to see where I can improve or automate the process so I don't have to spend time dealing with them.

    To generalize, it's not really your decision to make; you're not being paid to automate the process, you're being paid to do the process. As inefficient as it may be, doing the process is a mostly known quantity... whereas automating is a mostly unknown, both in cost and quality.

    To give a specific example, if you say "It'll take me 6 hours to configure these servers, but I can write a script and have it done in 3 hours, and each server will take seconds after that," it seems like a no brainer?

    Except, what if it's 11AM now and I absolutely need them done tomorrow? Do I want to have that argument at 2PM and say "ok, you've had your 3H, I know you said it's literally only five more minutes, but do it manually and stay until 8P"? Or do I give you 6H to automate, and then have you work until 11PM doing it manually? And now that you're having to work late, after a failed intensive hack session, how much does the probability of human error increase?

    No, I would rather just pay to have it done, I don't care that it's a waste of my money; I have bigger things to worry about... like actually making bringing in revenue.

    And this logic just scales.



  • @apapadimoulis said:

    evaluating the tooling used for 1000+ hours of dev work based on how quick it is to get coding is negligent.

    Did you not read the first part of response, I agree with you. But unless you make the learning curve to producing something easy newer devs are going to lean to other frameworks that maybe not as fully featured as .NET.

    Microsoft has taken notice of this and it is going to be in their tooling going forward. It is as if you never read the first few paragraphs of my reply.

    @apapadimoulis said:

    To generalize, it's not really your decision to make; you're not being paid to automate the process, you're being paid to do the process. As inefficient as it may be, doing the process is a mostly known quantity... whereas automating is a mostly unknown, both in cost and quality.

    I am programming a computer, sure I am being paid to automate a process that is what programming is about... that is why computers are used in the first place and why developers are needed to program them.

    Automating anything like a build process is a know in both in costs and quality. Cost is decreased and reliability (a property of quality) increased. I really can't believe a guy that is selling a tool called build master is arguing the opposite.

    @apapadimoulis said:

    To give a specific example, if you say "It'll take me 6 hours to configure these servers, but I can write a script and have it done in 3 hours, and each server will take seconds after that," it seems like a no brainer?

    Except, what if it's 11AM now and I absolutely need them done tomorrow? Do I want to have that argument at 2PM and say "ok, you've had your 3H, I know you said it's literally only five more minutes, but do it manually and stay until 8P"? Or do I give you 6H to automate, and then have you work until 11PM doing it manually? And now that you're having to work late, after a failed intensive hack session, how much does the probability of human error increase?

    If you are working late at night to deploy something, a lot else is probably WTF. While I agree with you I would act the same in your scenario ... much more is wrong in the project and that should be fixed ASAP.


  • ♿ (Parody)

    @lucas said:

    Did you not read the first part of response, I agree with you.

    STOP AGREEING WITH ME!!! Oh wait, yeah. No, we're on the same page here.

    Part of my frustration with all of this "instant gratification as a must-have feature" is that we (Inedo) has to invest a huge portion of time in making this happen. The standard is, "if I can't get it working on my machine in 5 minutes it must be terrible."

    @lucas said:

    Automating anything like a build process is a know in both in costs and quality. Cost is decreased and reliability (a property of quality) increased. I really can't believe a guy that is selling a tool called build master is arguing the opposite.

    That's the results of the automation. The costs to implement the automation is where the big unknowns are; and when is the right time to take on yet another unknown?

    The best analogy I give to developers is... ok, it's crunch time; some dude on your team is like "fellas, the dvorak keyboard layout is 18% more efficient than qwerty; studies provide it, and I've already made the switch; if we switch to dvorak now, we'll sail through our crunch time 18% faster."

    Taking the 18% at face value, terrible idea. But, is there ever a time when it'd be worth the switch? For most, nope.



  • @apapadimoulis said:

    That's the results of the automation. The costs to implement the automation is where the big unknowns are; and when is the right time to take on yet another unknown?

    Make sure it is part of the plan and is an accepted risk?



  • @apapadimoulis said:

    To be fair, they do test their code -- it's just not to the extent that y'all feel it should be tested. As disappointing as it may be, y'all are in the minority; most users don't give a shit about quality. See: everything built after 2010.

    I'm just going to leave this here:

    The absolute worst testers you can possibly have are developers. They're better than nothing. But barely. Even a mediocre tester will make your application better, and by proxy, encourage you to become a better developer. The very best testers will drag you, kicking and screaming if necessary, across the bug-bar threshold. **Professional testers force you to become a better developer.** Sometimes it's painful. But in a good way, like a heavy workout.

  • kills Dumbledore

    Well, we've got Jeff kicking and screaming. When does the better developer bit start?


  • Grade A Premium Asshole

    @MathNerdCNU said:

    I'm just going to leave

    this

    here:

    Using Jeff's own words against him is like shooting fish in a barrel, but I dig what you did there. 😄


  • Grade A Premium Asshole

    @codinghorror, I have been using Chrome canary since our discussion the other night. I have yet to even notice a bug in it. It is possible that there was a failure that I did not notice, but if so it has failed gracefully. Honestly, the only difference is the icon as far as I can tell. I have used it for all web browsing with the exception of mobile, as there is no equivalent for mobile devices.

    As for the number of DiscoBugs since then...what say you @discoursebot?



  • @Intercourse - Last Day Without A Discourse Bug: null


  • Banned

    Funny, there is a meta topic right now with a guy complaining Chromium (basically, chrome canary since it is at version 41) is unstable in Discourse. Try searching for it, I did and it was the first hit. Let's look at the Chromium project page, shall we?

    Anyway, tl;Dr we are all in violent agreement, weekly ish official beta releases are better for this community.



  • @Intercourse said:

    I have been using Chrome canary since our discussion the other night. I have yet to even notice a bug in it.

    @codinghorror said:

    Chromium (basically, chrome canary since it is at version 41) is unstable in Discourse.

    Gee I wonder what the problem could be.


  • Banned

    @blakeyrat said:

    Again, this is just more buck-passing. I don't give a shit what the Markdown spec says. I don't care who wrote it, for what, why, or when. I just care that the product I was forced into using doesn't work.

    Like I said above: there is no way that is not a bug. If it's in the spec, then it's a specced bug. Whee. But it's still a bug, it still sabotages the core functionality of your product (showing text I type to people), and it still should be fixed.

    Stop passing the buck to scapegoats and FIX YOUR SHIT.


    I guess you are unfamiliar with this

    And this

    And this

    I am working at the highest levels to fix this at the source. That is hard, a lot harder than randomly patching crap downstream in a way that is ultimately temporary and irrelevant. So you can either get on the field and help, like a real programmer who gives a shit about improving the world -- or be an armchair quarterback constantly mansplaining to us how everything was not done to your satisfaction.



  • Blah blah blah. It was broken, you knew it was broken, and you picked it for your fancy schmancy new forum. You purposefully implemented broken, buggy, code. Because you do not give a shit whether the product works or not.

    The fact that, literally years later, you then go back and maybe kind of slightly edit the spec you coded to (but don't fix the actual running forum software) does not somehow reverse the fact that you implemented broken shit, and you do not care if your product is full of broken shit.

    You know what's great for people dodging actual work? Committees! Form more committees! If you didn't have so many committee meetings, there's a danger you might actually get a chance to fix a few bugs!

    @codinghorror said:

    So you can either get on the field and help, like a real programmer who gives a shit about improving the world -- or be an armchair quarterback constantly mansplaining to us how everything was not done to your satisfaction.

    And my incentive to help you make money is... what exactly?

    You seem to forget my end-goal here is for Discourse to not exist, and you and your idiot cadre of moron developers to be out of work, sitting in an alley, laughed at by passersby. Helping you fix your tangled mess of shitty regex does not contribute towards that goal.

    Hey and while I'm bitching, what the fuck makes the thread title "GODZILLA" invalid? Who wrote that error message? Fucking K-9 from Doctor Who? Goddamned, fire your aspies. TITLE IS INVALID! I AM A ROBOT! BEEP BEEP BEEP! ADDING LOWERCASE LETTERS MAKES IT VALID SOMEHOW!!! BEEP BEEP BEEP!


    Oh BTW, I had a lot of trouble replying to your post, because your shitty, broken forum software was down. Again.


  • Banned

    Ok fine so you hate me, you hate the project, you hate open source projects that offer free discussion software to the world, and you hate attempting to improve open source projects upstream of us. Got it.

    And yet here you are discussing it with me, day after day, using this very software you hate.

    Who's zooming who, here?

    http://youtu.be/PnwDkT0lUWI



  • @apapadimoulis said:

    As disappointing as it may be, y'all are in the minority; most users don't give a shit about quality. See: everything built after 2010.

    This is basically the High Fructose Corn Syrupization of everything.


    Wow, that's hella depressing.
    "The world is shit, so lets just give up and embrace it"
    What's wrong with you? Bad year?


  • ♿ (Parody)

    @KillaCoder said:

    "The world is shit, so lets just give up and embrace it" What's wrong with you? Bad year?

    Current status: binge watching walking dead


  • Fake News


  • kills Dumbledore

    After taking ages to load (possibly bad signal) I got this on my moto G

    A decent improvement



  • @codinghorror said:

    Ok fine so you hate me, you hate the project,

    Yup.

    @codinghorror said:

    you hate open source projects that offer free discussion software to the world,

    No, just yours.

    @codinghorror said:

    and you hate attempting to improve open source projects upstream of us. Got it.

    No; I hate you leaving your software broken while that happens. Because instead of taking responsibility for your shitty bugs, it means you're just passing the buck to someone else. Like you're always doing. "Oh, it's Chrome's fault! Oh, it's Ember's fault! Oh it's Markdown's fault!" No. It's your fault.

    @codinghorror said:

    And yet here you are discussing it with me, day after day, using this very software you hate.

    Yeah, well, if you have alternative software that can use to engage with this community, I'll gladly use it instead of yours.

    Remember? We talked about this? You said something idiotic like, "I'm building a Ferrari, not a pickup truck!" and I said something like, "yeah, but a pickup truck and a Ferrari can drive on the same roads."


  • Grade A Premium Asshole

    @KillaCoder said:

    Wow, that's hella depressing. "The world is shit, so lets just give up and embrace it"

    I think it was more like: "The world is shit, so let's just eat it with a smile on our face."

    @codinghorror said:

    I am working at the highest levels to fix this at the source. That is hard, a lot harder than randomly patching crap downstream in a way that is ultimately temporary and irrelevant.

    First off, I was going to reply to this last night, but I was unable to reply at all on mobile. This morning I closed the WTDWTF tab and re-opened it and then the functionality came back. But, to recap, I have been on Chrome canary since Saturday morning and have yet to hit a bug in it, but have found multiple, site-breaking bugs in this sack of monkey shit.

    Second, if I understand correctly, you are the originator of CommonMark, so change that stupid spec. Numbers should be parsed as the numbers that they are, not as the current idiocy works. If you implement idiotic behavior just because that's the spec, you are a bigger idiot than the person who wrote the spec. You are blindly following rules that you do not have to. You are the leader of a 5-person team. You can do whatever you want so just do what makes sense. Don't follow stupid fucking specs. Be a leader and if your ideas are good, others will follow your spec.

    This entire project just seems like a project without adequate leadership. There are a lot of examples of this, but for me the largest was when you had your run-up to V 1.0 (which was not 1.0, but more like .62a), you did not do a feature freeze and squash bugs. No, instead you had your team fucking off doing idiotic UI changes. Many lingering bugs that we had reported, site-breaking bugs, did not get any attention. No, instead you had people working on a completely new concept...cold-mapping. WTF is that? That only makes me think of:

    I don't care though. I will probably bow out of this conversation. The levels of idiocy in here are drowning me.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    Here's some screen shots taken on my G3 this morning.

    Edit: I scrolled a bit after the first shot, but I think not enough to trigger a new batch load.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    And here's "browser". This time I tried not to scroll down more than a couple posts, in case it made a difference.


  • Banned

    @blakeyrat said:

    Like you're always doing. "Oh, it's Chrome's fault! Oh, it's Ember's fault! Oh it's Markdown's fault!" No. It's your fault.

    Are you reading what I write? We pushed on fixes in Chrome / Android and they are in progress. We pushed on fixes in Ember and gave them a perf benchmark. We basically forked Markdown to get fixes to the spec and consistency.

    If you can't or won't understand that, I'm sorry. But your lack of understanding has nothing to do with me.

    also @intercourse we were seeing some big Digital Ocean problems last night; basic Linux server commands were taking minutes to complete, even after a reboot. Seems to have subsided now but we told Alex to ask about noisy neighbors.


  • Grade A Premium Asshole

    @codinghorror said:

    we were seeing some big Digital Ocean problems last night

    Fair enough. Might want to keep an eye on that. It is your recommended host I believe, so that could also potentially look poorly on you.



  • I'm reading it, I'm just not a big fan of weaselly excuses.



  • @codinghorror: To give credit where due, I wanted to report back that my browsing experience has been better in the wake of the recent updates to fix the HTML bug. Still have some joyful loading spinner moments while waiting for the hanky panky signal to actually pass data through, but at least getting some feedback (progress on the loading bar, etc) now instead of just staying dead and doing nothing that I could see.


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