Firefox Nightly: "you know that new and buggy feature you disabled?...


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    .. well we're so confidant that we've improved it so much and got rid of so many bugs, we've re-enabled it anyway without telling you: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1076314

    ... as they should have said.

    TLDR: They're working on a per-tab process a-la Chrome ("E10S" - Electrolysis - doncha love the funky names?) and I've found it to be buggy as shit. Main problem they actually acknowledge is that greasemonkey won't work with it. Nor will LastPass (not that I use the latter, but it'd be a deal-breaker for some). Or Ghostery (ditto.)


    So I disabled it.

    Been a while since I updated (so - technically I'm not 'on' nightly, but hey..) but pulled and rebuild last night and hey - what dya know - they forceably re-enabled it.No "would you like to re-try?" No "By the way we're re-enabling..."

    They just enabled it.

    Fortunately (well perhaps unfortunately for them) it's rather obvious when this thing's enabled - they underline the text in the tab, but still...

    Oh - and with 32 tabs open...:

    [pjh@lenovo tmp]$ ps Haux | grep fox | anonymize  
    pjh  9999  0.9  0.6 7.4.264 7.4.36 ?        Sl   06:51   0:00 /home/pjh/firefox/plugin-container /usr/lib/mozilla/plugins/libflashplayer.so -greomni /home/pjh/firefox/omni.ja -appomni /home/pjh/firefox/browser/omni.ja -appdir /home/pjh/firefox/browser 31003 true plugin
    pjh  9999  0.0  0.6 7.4.264 7.4.36 ?        Sl   06:51   0:00 /home/pjh/firefox/plugin-container /usr/lib/mozilla/plugins/libflashplayer.so -greomni /home/pjh/firefox/omni.ja -appomni /home/pjh/firefox/browser/omni.ja -appdir /home/pjh/firefox/browser 31003 true plugin
    pjh 10095  0.0  0.0  22268   972 pts/6    S+   06:51   0:00 grep --color fox
    root     16152  0.0  0.1  38668  8356 ?        Ss   Oct20  13:08 SCREEN -t firefox
    root     29294  0.0  0.0  37416  7192 ?        Ss   Nov19   0:01 SCREEN -S firefox
    pjh 31003 16.5  3.6 1654184 295944 ?      Sl   06:26   4:16 /home/pjh/firefox/firefox
    pjh 31003  1.2  3.6 1654184 295944 ?      Sl   06:26   0:18 /home/pjh/firefox/firefox
    pjh 31003  2.2  3.6 1654184 295944 ?      Sl   06:26   0:34 /home/pjh/firefox/firefox
    pjh 31003  0.0  3.6 1654184 295944 ?      Sl   06:26   0:00 /home/pjh/firefox/firefox
    pjh 31003  0.0  3.6 1654184 295944 ?      Sl   06:26   0:00 /home/pjh/firefox/firefox
    pjh 31003  0.0  3.6 1654184 295944 ?      Sl   06:26   0:00 /home/pjh/firefox/firefox
    pjh 31003  0.0  3.6 1654184 295944 ?      Sl   06:26   0:00 /home/pjh/firefox/firefox
    pjh 31003  0.0  3.6 1654184 295944 ?      Sl   06:26   0:00 /home/pjh/firefox/firefox
    pjh 31003  0.0  3.6 1654184 295944 ?      Sl   06:26   0:00 /home/pjh/firefox/firefox
    pjh 31003  0.0  3.6 1654184 295944 ?      Sl   06:26   0:00 /home/pjh/firefox/firefox
    pjh 31003  0.0  3.6 1654184 295944 ?      Sl   06:26   0:00 /home/pjh/firefox/firefox
    pjh 31003  0.0  3.6 1654184 295944 ?      Sl   06:26   0:00 /home/pjh/firefox/firefox
    pjh 31003  0.0  3.6 1654184 295944 ?      Sl   06:26   0:00 /home/pjh/firefox/firefox
    pjh 31003  0.0  3.6 1654184 295944 ?      Sl   06:26   0:00 /home/pjh/firefox/firefox
    pjh 31003  0.0  3.6 1654184 295944 ?      Sl   06:26   0:00 /home/pjh/firefox/firefox
    pjh 31003  0.0  3.6 1654184 295944 ?      Sl   06:26   0:00 /home/pjh/firefox/firefox
    pjh 31003  0.0  3.6 1654184 295944 ?      SNl  06:26   0:00 /home/pjh/firefox/firefox
    pjh 31003  0.3  3.6 1654184 295944 ?      SNl  06:26   0:04 /home/pjh/firefox/firefox
    pjh 31003  0.3  3.6 1654184 295944 ?      Sl   06:26   0:04 /home/pjh/firefox/firefox
    pjh 31003  0.1  3.6 1654184 295944 ?      Sl   06:26   0:02 /home/pjh/firefox/firefox
    pjh 31003  0.0  3.6 1654184 295944 ?      Sl   06:26   0:00 /home/pjh/firefox/firefox
    pjh 31003  0.0  3.6 1654184 295944 ?      Sl   06:26   0:00 /home/pjh/firefox/firefox
    pjh 31003  0.0  3.6 1654184 295944 ?      Sl   06:26   0:00 /home/pjh/firefox/firefox
    pjh 31003  0.0  3.6 1654184 295944 ?      Sl   06:26   0:00 /home/pjh/firefox/firefox
    pjh 31003  1.3  3.6 1654184 295944 ?      Sl   06:26   0:21 /home/pjh/firefox/firefox
    pjh 31003  0.0  3.6 1654184 295944 ?      Sl   06:26   0:00 /home/pjh/firefox/firefox
    pjh 31003  0.0  3.6 1654184 295944 ?      Sl   06:26   0:00 /home/pjh/firefox/firefox
    pjh 31003  0.0  3.6 1654184 295944 ?      Sl   06:26   0:00 /home/pjh/firefox/firefox
    pjh 31003  0.0  3.6 1654184 295944 ?      Sl   06:26   0:01 /home/pjh/firefox/firefox
    pjh 31003  0.0  3.6 1654184 295944 ?      Sl   06:26   0:00 /home/pjh/firefox/firefox
    pjh 31003  0.0  3.6 1654184 295944 ?      Sl   06:26   0:00 /home/pjh/firefox/firefox
    pjh 31003  0.0  3.6 1654184 295944 ?      Sl   06:26   0:00 /home/pjh/firefox/firefox
    pjh 31003  0.0  3.6 1654184 295944 ?      Sl   06:26   0:00 /home/pjh/firefox/firefox
    pjh 31003  1.7  3.6 1654184 295944 ?      Sl   06:26   0:26 /home/pjh/firefox/firefox
    pjh 31003  0.0  3.6 1654184 295944 ?      Sl   06:26   0:00 /home/pjh/firefox/firefox
    pjh 31003  0.0  3.6 1654184 295944 ?      Sl   06:26   0:01 /home/pjh/firefox/firefox
    pjh 31003  0.0  3.6 1654184 295944 ?      Sl   06:27   0:00 /home/pjh/firefox/firefox
    pjh 31003  0.0  3.6 1654184 295944 ?      Sl   06:27   0:00 /home/pjh/firefox/firefox
    pjh 31003  0.0  3.6 1654184 295944 ?      Sl   06:27   0:00 /home/pjh/firefox/firefox
    pjh 31003  0.2  3.6 1654184 295944 ?      Sl   06:27   0:03 /home/pjh/firefox/firefox
    pjh 31003  0.0  3.6 1654184 295944 ?      Sl   06:27   0:00 /home/pjh/firefox/firefox
    pjh 31003  0.0  3.6 1654184 295944 ?      SNl  06:27   0:00 /home/pjh/firefox/firefox
    pjh 31003  0.0  3.6 1654184 295944 ?      Sl   06:28   0:00 /home/pjh/firefox/firefox
    pjh 31003  0.0  3.6 1654184 295944 ?      Sl   06:28   0:00 /home/pjh/firefox/firefox
    pjh 31003  0.0  3.6 1654184 295944 ?      Sl   06:28   0:00 /home/pjh/firefox/firefox
    pjh 31003  0.0  3.6 1654184 295944 ?      Sl   06:28   0:00 /home/pjh/firefox/firefox
    pjh 31003  0.0  3.6 1654184 295944 ?      Sl   06:28   0:00 /home/pjh/firefox/firefox
    pjh 31003  0.0  3.6 1654184 295944 ?      Sl   06:28   0:00 /home/pjh/firefox/firefox
    pjh 31003  0.0  3.6 1654184 295944 ?      Sl   06:28   0:00 /home/pjh/firefox/firefox
    pjh 31003  0.0  3.6 1654184 295944 ?      Sl   06:28   0:00 /home/pjh/firefox/firefox
    pjh 31003  0.6  3.6 1654184 295944 ?      Sl   06:29   0:09 /home/pjh/firefox/firefox
    pjh 31003  0.0  3.6 1654184 295944 ?      Sl   06:30   0:00 /home/pjh/firefox/firefox
    pjh 31003  0.0  3.6 1654184 295944 ?      Sl   06:31   0:00 /home/pjh/firefox/firefox
    pjh 31003  0.0  3.6 1654184 295944 ?      Sl   06:41   0:00 /home/pjh/firefox/firefox
    pjh 31003  0.0  3.6 1654184 295944 ?      Sl   06:41   0:00 /home/pjh/firefox/firefox
    pjh 31003  0.0  3.6 1654184 295944 ?      Sl   06:48   0:00 /home/pjh/firefox/firefox
    pjh 31003  0.0  3.6 1654184 295944 ?      Sl   06:48   0:00 /home/pjh/firefox/firefox
    pjh 31003  0.0  3.6 1654184 295944 ?      Sl   06:48   0:00 /home/pjh/firefox/firefox
    pjh 31003  0.0  3.6 1654184 295944 ?      Sl   06:48   0:00 /home/pjh/firefox/firefox
    pjh 31003  0.0  3.6 1654184 295944 ?      Sl   06:48   0:00 /home/pjh/firefox/firefox
    pjh 31003  0.0  3.6 1654184 295944 ?      Sl   06:48   0:00 /home/pjh/firefox/firefox
    pjh 31003  0.0  3.6 1654184 295944 ?      Sl   06:48   0:00 /home/pjh/firefox/firefox
    pjh 31003  0.0  3.6 1654184 295944 ?      Sl   06:48   0:00 /home/pjh/firefox/firefox
    pjh 31003  0.0  3.6 1654184 295944 ?      Sl   06:48   0:00 /home/pjh/firefox/firefox
    pjh 31178 17.2  7.8 1143520 641876 ?      Sl   06:27   4:18 /home/pjh/firefox/plugin-container -greomni /home/pjh/firefox/omni.ja -appomni /home/pjh/firefox/browser/omni.ja -appdir /home/pjh/firefox/browser 31003 true tab
    pjh 31178  1.2  7.8 1143520 641876 ?      Sl   06:27   0:18 /home/pjh/firefox/plugin-container -greomni /home/pjh/firefox/omni.ja -appomni /home/pjh/firefox/browser/omni.ja -appdir /home/pjh/firefox/browser 31003 true tab
    pjh 31178  0.0  7.8 1143520 641876 ?      Sl   06:27   0:01 /home/pjh/firefox/plugin-container -greomni /home/pjh/firefox/omni.ja -appomni /home/pjh/firefox/browser/omni.ja -appdir /home/pjh/firefox/browser 31003 true tab
    pjh 31178  0.1  7.8 1143520 641876 ?      Sl   06:27   0:01 /home/pjh/firefox/plugin-container -greomni /home/pjh/firefox/omni.ja -appomni /home/pjh/firefox/browser/omni.ja -appdir /home/pjh/firefox/browser 31003 true tab
    pjh 31178  0.0  7.8 1143520 641876 ?      Sl   06:27   0:01 /home/pjh/firefox/plugin-container -greomni /home/pjh/firefox/omni.ja -appomni /home/pjh/firefox/browser/omni.ja -appdir /home/pjh/firefox/browser 31003 true tab
    pjh 31178  0.1  7.8 1143520 641876 ?      Sl   06:27   0:01 /home/pjh/firefox/plugin-container -greomni /home/pjh/firefox/omni.ja -appomni /home/pjh/firefox/browser/omni.ja -appdir /home/pjh/firefox/browser 31003 true tab
    pjh 31178  0.1  7.8 1143520 641876 ?      Sl   06:27   0:01 /home/pjh/firefox/plugin-container -greomni /home/pjh/firefox/omni.ja -appomni /home/pjh/firefox/browser/omni.ja -appdir /home/pjh/firefox/browser 31003 true tab
    pjh 31178  0.1  7.8 1143520 641876 ?      Sl   06:27   0:01 /home/pjh/firefox/plugin-container -greomni /home/pjh/firefox/omni.ja -appomni /home/pjh/firefox/browser/omni.ja -appdir /home/pjh/firefox/browser 31003 true tab
    pjh 31178  0.1  7.8 1143520 641876 ?      Sl   06:27   0:01 /home/pjh/firefox/plugin-container -greomni /home/pjh/firefox/omni.ja -appomni /home/pjh/firefox/browser/omni.ja -appdir /home/pjh/firefox/browser 31003 true tab
    pjh 31178  0.1  7.8 1143520 641876 ?      Sl   06:27   0:01 /home/pjh/firefox/plugin-container -greomni /home/pjh/firefox/omni.ja -appomni /home/pjh/firefox/browser/omni.ja -appdir /home/pjh/firefox/browser 31003 true tab
    pjh 31178  0.0  7.8 1143520 641876 ?      Sl   06:27   0:01 /home/pjh/firefox/plugin-container -greomni /home/pjh/firefox/omni.ja -appomni /home/pjh/firefox/browser/omni.ja -appdir /home/pjh/firefox/browser 31003 true tab
    pjh 31178  0.0  7.8 1143520 641876 ?      Sl   06:27   0:01 /home/pjh/firefox/plugin-container -greomni /home/pjh/firefox/omni.ja -appomni /home/pjh/firefox/browser/omni.ja -appdir /home/pjh/firefox/browser 31003 true tab
    pjh 31178  0.1  7.8 1143520 641876 ?      Sl   06:27   0:01 /home/pjh/firefox/plugin-container -greomni /home/pjh/firefox/omni.ja -appomni /home/pjh/firefox/browser/omni.ja -appdir /home/pjh/firefox/browser 31003 true tab
    pjh 31178  0.1  7.8 1143520 641876 ?      Sl   06:27   0:01 /home/pjh/firefox/plugin-container -greomni /home/pjh/firefox/omni.ja -appomni /home/pjh/firefox/browser/omni.ja -appdir /home/pjh/firefox/browser 31003 true tab
    pjh 31178  0.0  7.8 1143520 641876 ?      Sl   06:27   0:00 /home/pjh/firefox/plugin-container -greomni /home/pjh/firefox/omni.ja -appomni /home/pjh/firefox/browser/omni.ja -appdir /home/pjh/firefox/browser 31003 true tab
    pjh 31178  0.0  7.8 1143520 641876 ?      Sl   06:27   0:00 /home/pjh/firefox/plugin-container -greomni /home/pjh/firefox/omni.ja -appomni /home/pjh/firefox/browser/omni.ja -appdir /home/pjh/firefox/browser 31003 true tab
    pjh 31178  0.0  7.8 1143520 641876 ?      SNl  06:27   0:00 /home/pjh/firefox/plugin-container -greomni /home/pjh/firefox/omni.ja -appomni /home/pjh/firefox/browser/omni.ja -appdir /home/pjh/firefox/browser 31003 true tab
    pjh 31178  0.1  7.8 1143520 641876 ?      Sl   06:27   0:01 /home/pjh/firefox/plugin-container -greomni /home/pjh/firefox/omni.ja -appomni /home/pjh/firefox/browser/omni.ja -appdir /home/pjh/firefox/browser 31003 true tab
    pjh 31178  0.0  7.8 1143520 641876 ?      Sl   06:27   0:00 /home/pjh/firefox/plugin-container -greomni /home/pjh/firefox/omni.ja -appomni /home/pjh/firefox/browser/omni.ja -appdir /home/pjh/firefox/browser 31003 true tab
    pjh 31178  0.0  7.8 1143520 641876 ?      Sl   06:28   0:00 /home/pjh/firefox/plugin-container -greomni /home/pjh/firefox/omni.ja -appomni /home/pjh/firefox/browser/omni.ja -appdir /home/pjh/firefox/browser 31003 true tab
    pjh 31178  0.0  7.8 1143520 641876 ?      Sl   06:28   0:00 /home/pjh/firefox/plugin-container -greomni /home/pjh/firefox/omni.ja -appomni /home/pjh/firefox/browser/omni.ja -appdir /home/pjh/firefox/browser 31003 true tab
    pjh 31178  0.0  7.8 1143520 641876 ?      Sl   06:28   0:00 /home/pjh/firefox/plugin-container -greomni /home/pjh/firefox/omni.ja -appomni /home/pjh/firefox/browser/omni.ja -appdir /home/pjh/firefox/browser 31003 true tab
    pjh 31178  0.0  7.8 1143520 641876 ?      Sl   06:30   0:00 /home/pjh/firefox/plugin-container -greomni /home/pjh/firefox/omni.ja -appomni /home/pjh/firefox/browser/omni.ja -appdir /home/pjh/firefox/browser 31003 true tab
    pjh 31178  0.0  7.8 1143520 641876 ?      Sl   06:48   0:00 /home/pjh/firefox/plugin-container -greomni /home/pjh/firefox/omni.ja -appomni /home/pjh/firefox/browser/omni.ja -appdir /home/pjh/firefox/browser 31003 true tab
    pjh 31178  0.1  7.8 1143520 641876 ?      Sl   06:48   0:00 /home/pjh/firefox/plugin-container -greomni /home/pjh/firefox/omni.ja -appomni /home/pjh/firefox/browser/omni.ja -appdir /home/pjh/firefox/browser 31003 true tab
    pjh 31178  0.0  7.8 1143520 641876 ?      Sl   06:48   0:00 /home/pjh/firefox/plugin-container -greomni /home/pjh/firefox/omni.ja -appomni /home/pjh/firefox/browser/omni.ja -appdir /home/pjh/firefox/browser 31003 true tab
    pjh 31178  0.0  7.8 1143520 641876 ?      Sl   06:48   0:00 /home/pjh/firefox/plugin-container -greomni /home/pjh/firefox/omni.ja -appomni /home/pjh/firefox/browser/omni.ja -appdir /home/pjh/firefox/browser 31003 true tab
    pjh 31178  0.0  7.8 1143520 641876 ?      Sl   06:48   0:00 /home/pjh/firefox/plugin-container -greomni /home/pjh/firefox/omni.ja -appomni /home/pjh/firefox/browser/omni.ja -appdir /home/pjh/firefox/browser 31003 true tab
    pjh 31178  0.0  7.8 1143520 641876 ?      Sl   06:48   0:00 /home/pjh/firefox/plugin-container -greomni /home/pjh/firefox/omni.ja -appomni /home/pjh/firefox/browser/omni.ja -appdir /home/pjh/firefox/browser 31003 true tab
    pjh 31178  0.0  7.8 1143520 641876 ?      Sl   06:51   0:00 /home/pjh/firefox/plugin-container -greomni /home/pjh/firefox/omni.ja -appomni /home/pjh/firefox/browser/omni.ja -appdir /home/pjh/firefox/browser 31003 true tab
    pjh 31178  0.0  7.8 1143520 641876 ?      Sl   06:51   0:00 /home/pjh/firefox/plugin-container -greomni /home/pjh/firefox/omni.ja -appomni /home/pjh/firefox/browser/omni.ja -appdir /home/pjh/firefox/browser 31003 true tab
    [pjh@lenovo tmp]$ 
    

  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    I'm personally annoyed by the whole process-per-tab thing. Don't get me wrong, I understand the reasoning, and in principle I agree with it.

    But looking for stuff in system monitor with both Opera and Chrome running... ugh! I'm going to have to find a different task-manager-like thiggy that has some kind of filtering or grouping solely due to that shit.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @Onyx said:

    I'm going to have to find a different task-manager-like thiggy that has some kind of filtering or grouping solely due to that shit.

    Which OS? I find the following vaguely useful when the need arises:

    Windows: Process Explorer
    Linux: htop


  • sockdevs

    The Win8 Task Manager does grouping. Not a reason to use Win8, true, but it's a nice feature to have and shit.


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @PJH said:

    Linux: htop

    Yeah, I'd like something clicky at times. Gnome System Monitor is quite good, except for the "no grouping" thing.

    @RaceProUK said:

    The Win8 Task Manager does grouping. Not a reason to use Win8, true, but it's a nice feature to have and shit.

    I stated on multiple occasions (maybe not here, but in general) that there are exactly two things I like in Win8:

    • Window styling. Some people understandably hate it due to lack of contrast, but I don't have a problem with that and I like the clean look
    • Task manager. It's freaking awesome. If I had the time I'd try and make a clone under Linux. But... yeah, time.

  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @Onyx said:

    Yeah, I'd like something clicky at times.

    It responds to (some) mouse clicks. At least it does here...



  • There are more than 32 processes there, so what? 3 processes per tab?


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @Eldelshell said:

    There are more than 32 processes there, so what? 3 processes per tab?

    I'm gonna buttume plugins. Most likely flash. I think Chrome spins off separate processes for plugin containers as well.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @Eldelshell said:

    There are more than 32 processes there, so what? 3 processes per tab?

    They're technically threads (hence the H in the ps, but this is pedantry - the effect is largely the same) but two per tab - the firefox tab itself (/home/pjh/firefox/firefox) and a container (/home/pjh/firefox/plugin-container)



  • Oh! I didn't notice the H. Fuck, just tried that with chromium and 7 (5 are JSON responses) tabs:

    $ ps -Haux | grep -c chromium
    133
    

    WTF?!? No wonder my Discourse tab dies after a while.



  • @Onyx said:

    Task manager. It's freaking awesome. If I had the time I'd try and make a clone under Linux. But... yeah, time.

    I hate it that, after all this time, they still don't have any kind of search or filtering. Unacceptable.

    If you only wanted 2 Windows features to be jealous of, I would replace process manager with the per-process audio mixer. When on Linux or Mac, I always get annoyed when I realize this is missing.


    Re Firefox multi-process feature. So was this the last bastion where Firefox stuck to its original idea? Have they now finally became the uglier, more bloated version of Chrome?

    In retrospect, it's amazing how Chrome 1.0 got everything so fucking right. Multi-process architecture, lean look, no native plugins, quick evergreen updates. It turned the browsers market on its head, in the same vein as iPhone did with mobiles. For some reason, this is just not brought up often enough.



  • Yeah, I guess that's what should happen when you throw a bunch of experts into a room with a big sack of money and tell them to build a new browser.

    OTOH, Mozilla, although being a big fan of what they do, are limited in resources. Also, Firefox has been dragging decisions & technical debt made 20 years ago.


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @cartman82 said:

    If you only wanted 2 Windows features to be jealous of, I would replace process manager with the per-process audio mixer. When on Linux or Mac, I always get annoyed when I realize this is missing.

    It's a pain to get to though, I should really make a shortcut / applet to get to it easier.



  • All I get is this crap.

    Similar on Mac.


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    Ah, yeah... ALSA itself can't do per-application sound mixing. You'll need PulseAudio for that. It used to be utter crap, they (mostly) fixed it up now and it works fine. The only caveat I know of at the moment are possible problems with USB / Bluetooth headsets.

    And yes, it sucks that these things still don't Just Work™



  • @cartman82 said:

    per-process audio mixer

    PulseAudio gives you one.



  • @cartman82 said:

    Have they now finally became the uglier, more bloated version of Chrome?

    Personally I think they've been that for a long time now...



  • @PJH said:

    confidant

    Tell Bob your secrets.


  • area_deu

    @That MTG card said:

    Greatness, at any cost.

    Sounds like Firefox does not follow the Confidant's motto.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @Onyx said:

    Task Manager. It's freaking awesome.

    It has one drawback, though: They broke the old "almost unfreezable" nature of the original version. But yeah, grouping is pretty awesome, as are the new graphs.

    Firefox: I don't always use per-tab-processes, but when I do, I use ALL the processes, to mix two memes.



  • @cartman82 said:

    If you only wanted 2 Windows features to be jealous of, I would replace process manager with the per-process audio mixer. When on Linux or Mac, I always get annoyed when I realize this is missing.

    On Mac there's SoundBunny. It's useful for situations like playing a game without its own native volume control while listening to a podcast or audiobook. Only downside is (like everything on Mac) it costs money. :money_with_wings:


  • sockdevs

    owning a Mac = say goodbye to your wallet....

    or so i'm told

    /me is a PC girl



  • @accalia said:

    owning a Mac = say goodbye to your wallet....

    I'm not much of an Apple guy myself; the only Apple device I have is the Macbook I got after I got a real job that let me afford expensive toys. For everyday use, webdev and python scripting, it beats the pants off anything on PC, but I've found myself going back to Windows for more serious development. And gaming, of course.

    Edit: But yes, to your original point, it does a number on your finances.



  • @hungrier said:

    For everyday use, webdev and python scripting, it beats the pants off anything on PC

    Oooooo...one of @cartman82's elusive hipster devs?



  • @boomzilla said:

    Oooooo...one of @cartman82's elusive hipster devs?

    I don't live in San Francisco and I can count all the times I've been to Starbucks on one hand, so I don't think so. Also, all my paid work so far has been done on PC.



  • @Onyx said:

    You'll need PulseAudio for that.

    I had to install PulseAudio when some things stopped supporting raw Alsa. It gave me the per-application volume control (cool; that finally handles the problem that the icecast player is much louder than anything else), but it removed the per-output volume that worked before. I have a headset in the front jack and speakers in the rear, sometimes want to mute the speakers only and neither have reasonably reachable hardware control. I am sure it could be fixed by rewiring the Alsa configuration, but that fucking unbelievable mess is beyond me.


  • area_deu

    amixer, alsamixer and similar programs still work if you have pulseaudio installed, iirc.



  • KDE's Mixer separates by playback vs capture and devices vs streams.



  • TIL: audio support on Linux is a mess.
    And you can get anything on Mac if you pay pay pay like there's no tomorrow.



  • Sorry, I still can't get over that audio mixer with a different scale per process, because of the length of the process name. Who thought that was a good idea?



  • @boomzilla said:

    KDE's Mixer separates by playback vs capture and devices vs streams.

    I know. But the devices playback section now only has one slider instead of separate master+rear+front+surround. Because the hardware devices are now mixed and there is only the virtual pulseaudio device.

    @aliceif said:

    amixer, alsamixer and similar programs still work

    They do, but they either also only show the virtual pulseaudio device and not the hardware ones or they can be switched to show the hardware device controls, but when I adjust the levels it interferes with what the pulseaudio tries to set there and they either end up reset back to the same setting or totally screwed.

    And I had to already set flat-volumes = no in the daemon config or the device volume would reset itself to full with each channel.

    Perhaps there is some other setting to tell it to leave the hardware controls alone, but I didn't find it with quick look and didn't spend that much time on it.



  • @Bulb said:

    I know. But the devices playback section now only has one slider instead of separate master+rear+front+surround. Because the hardware devices are now mixed and there is only the virtual pulseaudio device.

    Ah. I don't have a setup where that's a thing.


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @cartman82 said:

    TIL: audio support on Linux is a mess.
    And you can get anything on a Mac if you pay pay pay like there's no tomorrow.

    FTFY



  • @SirTwist said:

    Who thought that was a good idea?

    Canonical's hipster designers I expect.



  • @Bulb said:

    PulseAudio ... gave me the per-application volume control ... but it removed the per-output volume that worked before

    All available in pavucontrol as far as I recall. Poke around its tabs and dropdowns a little.



  • @cartman82 said:

    audio support on Linux is a mess

    Nature of the bazaar (oh fuck off, Discourse multi-reply nag toasters)



  • @flabdablet said:

    All available in pavucontrol as far as I recall. Poke around its tabs and dropdowns a little.

    Well, no, they are not. Because apparently PulseAudio misunderstands how the outputs are wired in Alsa.

    I have two output jacks, "Line Out/Front" and "Headphones" connected to the same Alsa device (that is called sysdefault when default is directed to PulseAudio). With raw Alsa they both play and have their own mixer levels plus "Master" that multiplies both of them. But PulseAudio apparently thinks that either one or the other plays. So PAVuControl shows a switch with "Line Out" and "Headphones" states and when I switch it, the remembered volume for the other profile is set to both outputs and they always both play.

    I can still tweak the two volumes independently in alsamixer by switching the card to sysdefault. But when I then adjust the volume via KMix (that only shows the default device) they both get reset to full again. What I would need is to persuade PulseAudio to only control the "Master" channel of the underlying hardware and leave the other mixers alone, but I don't know how to do that.


  • sockdevs

    The more I read about audio on Linux, the more I'm like

    And then I go do something sane, like lay across a railway line.

    Edit: Fixed the image. Finally :)



  • @RaceProUK said:

    like

    The image does not show. Apparently the server forbids hotlinking…


  • sockdevs

    @Bulb said:

    The image does not show. Apparently the server forbids hotlinking…

    Weird; I've used that exact image before, and it worked fine.

    DisCOURSE!!!



  • @RaceProUK said:

    Weird; I've used that exact image before, and it worked fine.

    Sounds like they're on to you.


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @SirTwist said:

    Sorry, I still can't get over that audio mixer with a different scale per process, because of the length of the process name. Who thought that was a good idea?

    @flabdablet said:

    Canonical's hipster designers I expect.

    Also, I'm going to buttume GTK isn't helping any.

    Damn it, the more I look at it the more pissed I get. But I don't like KDE!

    Time to check up on LXQT again I think...



  • The one in XFCE is quite usable



  • Mint / Mate is also fine. It's for people that like things that are ugly but not insane, and working but not too fast.


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    So they only screwed up the Cinnamon version. Great. I mean, it's functional enough, but they broke the alignment, as seen on the screenshot.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @boomzilla said:

    Sounds like they're on to you.

    That's usually how it winds up being blocked, yeah.

    I linked the line drawing of that image recently, but I got it off know your meme's CDN or something, which doesn't care about hotlinking,

    JWZ, of Netscape infamy, does more than just ban hotlinking, he does URL rewriting or something so you get a picture of a testicle in an egg cup or something. I don't know, I've never seen it, but people gripe about it from time to time, and he just mocks them.


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @FrostCat said:

    JWZ, of Netscape infamy, does more than just ban hotlinking, he does URL rewriting or something so you get a picture of a testicle in an egg cup or something. I don't know, I've never seen it, but people gripe about it from time to time, and he just mocks them.

    The only question I have is: why the hell isn't a troll of such calibre here on TDWTF?

    Or maybe he is! *dun dun duuuuun*


    Filed under: This MarkTMLCode bug is too entertaining for me to fix the post



  • @RaceProUK said:

    Weird; I've used that exact image before

    No, not weird. It WorksForYou™, because you have the image in cache.

    I clicked on the image and it showed error saying hotlinking is not allowed. So I pressed enter in the location bar and the image loaded. So I clicked back to return to the thread and the image showed.

    I believe it would also work for anybody using certain anonymizing proxy as it would strip cross-site Referer.


  • sockdevs

    @Bulb said:

    No, not weird. It WorksForYou™, because you have the image in cache.

    Until I cleared it :P



  • @Eldelshell said:

    The one in XFCE is quite usable

    That's PAVuControl. I have the same. The two devices it shows are two different sound cards. I have the same two in my computer, but I have disabled the first one because I don't use HDMI and it was difficult to persuade raw Alsa to use the later otherwise (YAWTF). The problem is the "Port:" switch (combo). It should switch between speakers and headphones, but for me both always play and the slider adjusts volume of both ports (actually, it always adjusts volume of "Master", which is common to the ports) independent of which position that switch is in.


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