The google can't do math



  • I wonder how many novices without any experience will get screwed over by that ^

    Yes, I am so lazy I use google as my calculator.



  • It's just pendantic about bs KiB notation.


  • BINNED

    Obviously you should be using kibibytes


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place



  • To be fair to Google 'Digital Storage' is selected as the category and that implies the bizarre metric units HDs manufacturers like (kibibytes etc...).



  • Let's check the prevelent term in my device datasheets.

    O look kilobytes



  • Don’t we already have a few “Kilobyte versus Kibibyte” threads around :left_right_arrow: :arrow_right_hook: :arrow_down: :arrow_double_up: :arrow_right: here?


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @delfinom said:

    Let's check the prevelent term in my device datasheets.

    O look kilobytes

    So you use 103n instead of 210n.

    We've already had a similar discussion about this sort of thing recently.



  • The HD sales-weasels even have the gall to put GB and TB on the drives. NO.


  • BINNED

    kibblybibblybytaroonies are the only unit I recognise


  • SockDev

    if it weren't for the fact that they spell out the disclaimer on the back

    \* A Gigabyte is defined to be 1 billion (1,000,000,000) bytes
    \* A Terabyte is defined to be 1 trillion (1,000,000,000,000) bytes

    i'd be so tempted to open a civil suit for decietful packaging claiming that the billion and trillion are the long form billion/trillion (1,000,000,000,000 and 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 respectively)



  • I've never had a harddisk come in any packaging beyond a sealed antistatic bag or a sort of cardboard egg-box if you buy a lot in one go. Maybe I should complain to the ASA and see if I even get a form letter back.


  • SockDev

    @Cursorkeys said:

    I've never had a harddisk come in any packaging beyond a sealed antistatic bag or a sort of cardboard egg-box if you buy a lot in one go. Maybe I should complain to the ASA and see if I even get a form letter back

    for personal projects same, because i see the need coming far enough in advance to get them online where they're 20%+ cheaper

    but occasionally i get a tech support call from family that has been ignoring the grinding noise coming from their computer for the past 6 months and now their computer won't turn on and i need to fix it now (there's not much i can do usually as the drive is abuse far beyond recoverability)



  • Oh right, I hadn't even thought about the fact they must have some sort of display package in computer shops.
    I wonder if they make similar ridiculous statements to the ones you see on GFX card boxes:
    Super-mega-infinity bit-polishing technology.
    Increases the speed of every mammal in your house by 25%.
    Capacititors!


    Edit: How the heck do you escape markdown, I want asterisks not italiacs!


  • BINNED

    @accalia said:

    i'd be so tempted to open a civil suit for decietful packaging claiming that the billion and trillion are the long form billion/trillion (1,000,000,000,000 and 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 respectively)

    I'm tempted to sue any English speaking country for using the short form in the first place.


    Filed under: But they also use it in [non-English speaking country] in 3... 2...


  • SockDev

    @Cursorkeys said:

    I wonder if they make similar ridiculous statements to the ones you see on GFX card boxes:

    they do.

    i never pay attention to them. you needed a HDD today because yours finally wonn't start spinning? you're getting a 1TB WD Green and you're going to like it. (you only get the 500GB WD green if it happens to be instock, which is not often the case these days)

    you're not getting anything else because it's going to be a minimum of 6 months before you pay me back for the hardware i had to install, much less the 6 hours of my time you wasted by not calling me 6 months ago when the fix would have only taken 20 minutes of my time.


  • SockDev

    @Onyx said:

    Filed under: But they also use it in [non-English speaking country] in 3... 2...

    so sue them too. problem solved!~~


  • SockDev

    Didn't we already declare kibble bytes and giggle bytes as nonsense units?


  • SockDev

    i must remember those the next time i want to be silly with storage units.


  • SockDev

    Kibble bytes, meagre bytes, giggle bytes and terror bytes (for Halloween, obvs)

    Can substitute bits for bytes for comedy value.



  • @accalia said:

    i'd be so tempted to open a civil suit for decietful packaging claiming that the billion and trillion are the long form billion/trillion (1,000,000,000,000 and 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 respectively)

    The worst part of all this is they used to do it right! I had a small stack of ancient IDE drives pulled from the PC graveyard that were labeled 810 MB, and Windows would recognize them as exactly 810 MB. There was no discrepancy between megabyte and mebibyte.

    Same with flash drives, the first ones I had in the early-to-mid 2000's exactly matched the packaging, yet modern ones are smaller than labeled.


  • SockDev

    yeah. it was about the time that GB became a thing that some marketing coprolite figured out the discrepoancy between SI units and proper storage units and decided to exploit the discrepancy to allow their company to be the first one to have a "true" GB HDD

    of course the techies complained bitterly but the unwashed masses just saw the marketing media and accepted it.


  • BINNED

    @Arantor said:

    Kibble bytes, meagre bytes, giggle bytes and terror bytes (for Halloween, obvs)

    Can substitute bits for bytes for comedy value.

    Don't forget PETA bytes. They refuse to store any data that could hurt an animal


  • SockDev

    Aaaaaaw, I so approve of that.

    /me adds to the list where he kept the above.



  • @Cursorkeys said:

    the bizarre metric units HDs manufacturers like (kibibytes etc...)

    No. Sorry. Just no.

    Personal computer HD manufacturers have been specifying their device capacities in strict accordance with the actual meanings of the SI prefixes they use to do so since the release of the Seagate ST506 if not before.

    It's the coding priesthood, not drive manufacturers, who insist on attaching bizarre and erroneous meanings to standard metric prefixes despite the existence (since 1998!) of a perfectly serviceable set of unambiguous replacements.



  • @mott555 said:

    The worst part of all this is they used to do it right!

    How big was a 1.44 "M"B floppy?

    Was it:

    • 1.44 * 1000 * 1000 bytes
    • 1.44 * 1024 * 1024 bytes
    • FILE_NOT_FOUND bytes
      ?

    (Hint: [spoiler]It's not either of the first two[/spoiler])


  • I survived the hour long Uno hand

    1.44 inches long?



  • Yeah, I know floppy disks were wrong. But hard drives weren't necessarily wrong and at some point they changed.

    I think those 810 MB disks I had were Seagates. I'm amused that Seagates from 20 years ago still work yet modern ones always fail on me within a year or two, but that's a different discussion.



  • @flabdablet said:

    despite the existence (since 1998!)

    Storage of some form in electronic logic has been around for quite a lot longer and we use 2^x. Core stores were specified in kilowords but sometimes you saw kilobytes in the documentation as a comparison and that was 1024 NOT 1000.
    If Core Store could do it then everything else can too. This is just driven by greedy marketing.

    Edit: For predating core storage (in a search for doing-it-right :tm:) I tried to look for mercury-delay-line specifications. It only seems to have been specified in words..I guess there wasn't enough mercury available for us to find out ;))



  • @mott555 said:

    Seagates from 20 years ago still work

    Finding out when exactly Seagate became a warning label instead of a brand name may be interesting.



  • In the days when a kilobyte was still a useful amount of memory there was no real reason to disambiguate it. Nobody except Mel would care about 24 bytes here or there.

    @Cursorkeys said:

    we use 2^x

    And for sixteen years we've had our very own set of unambiguous prefixes for doing so.



  • Being more serious for a sec, I do see that argument. But apart from that fact that measuring a binary resource like this is just silly, it IS making a big difference these days that I think normal people do care about.
    I just bought a 4TB harddisk and I've 'lost' 300GB, I have laptops with smaller harddisks than that.


  • SockDev

    IIRC.... 1440 KB so 1440*1024 bytes....



  • You know the worst thing I just realized.

    Intel labels their SSDs in 1024 based prefixes.
    Samsung labels their SSDs in 1000 based prefixes.

    But then Intel uses the 1000 base prefix for fucking MB/sec.



  • @EvanED said:

    How big was a 1.44 "M"B floppy?

    2 sides * 80 tracks/side * 18 sectors/track * 512 bytes/sector = 1474560 bytes = 1440KiB



  • @Cursorkeys said:

    I've 'lost' 300GB

    Only because Windows still insists on quoting drive capacities incorrectly.



  • Windows is correct. 1024 for life.



  • @delfinom said:

    Intel uses the 1000 base prefix for fucking MB/sec

    The use of SI decimal prefixes to specify data transfer speeds is traditional and should be uncontroversial.



  • I'd say correctly, but that's the root of the problem isn't it?

    They've co-opted an established measure and made it much more difficult to establish what you're getting.

    I see the advantage in not overloading the kilo, mega etc.. designators but kibi and mibi wasn't used when digital storage came into being and it since became thoroughly established and universally understood...until this fustercluck happened.



  • @delfinom said:

    1024 for life.

    Only if you can actually write down the the number of bytes in a tebibyte without looking it up first does this argument hold any water at all.



  • I don't argue with this, but mixing the units is insane.



  • @delfinom said:

    mixing the units is insane.

    The sooner the computing fraternity quits whining about the binary prefixes being "silly", the sooner this particular insanity will stop.



  • Is byte even an SI unit? Does it make sense to go pedantic about SI prefixes on non-SI units?

    BRB gonna go start measuring city distances in kilofeet and megainches.



  • @Cursorkeys said:

    kibi and mibi wasn't used when digital storage came into being

    Neither were mega, giga and tera, for what it's worth.



  • @flabdablet said:

    tera

    What about terrainbytes?



  • @mott555 said:

    gonna go start measuring city distances in kilofeet and megainches

    Knock yourself out. I live somewhere that's been measuring city distances in kilometres since 1974. Somehow we've survived.



  • But meters are actual SI units...



  • @flabdablet said:

    Neither were mega, giga and tera, for what it's worth.

    Where's the pedant button...I wonder when the first use of Kilo for storage actually was, from what I've seen probably core storage.

    Edit: The internet says Drum Memory, I assumed it would have been a lot smaller than that. Learn something new everyday.


  • BINNED

    @flabdablet said:

    Only because Windows still insists on quoting drive capacities incorrectly.

    There we go, now everyone can be happy.

    And no, it's not just cosmetic. If I switch it to "Decimal" the "Free space" which is 4.3 GiB in this screenshot turns into 4.6GB.



  • @Cursorkeys said:

    They've co-opted an established measure

    I absolutely agree than an established measure has been co-opted. I absolutely disagree that it was hard drive manufacturers who did the co-opting. It was computer programmers and engineers who first decided to abuse "kilo" to mean something else. Nearby, but still else.

    When the ST-506 hard disk appeared, the computers it was designed for still had RAM capacities small enough to specify in kilobytes. And the ST-506 was described as a 5 megabyte drive, which it was (153 cylinders * 4 tracks/cylinder * 32 sectors/track * 256 bytes/sector = 5013504 bytes). In fact Seagate gave you a little more storage than they said they did, as hard drive manufacturers continue to do to this day.

    Now, that drive went on the market in 1980 - two years before the introduction of the 3.5" hard-shell floppy disk. And when that floppy format first appeared, it had 720KiB of storage, exactly twice the data capacity of the 5.25" floppies of the day. And as you correctly point out the kibi prefix wasn't invented then, so people just spoke of a "720K floppy" and a "5 meg hard drive" and a "PC with 512K of RAM". It was common to see an uppercase K alone (occasionally with an uppercase B next to it) being used to mean what a KiB does now. Bandwidths, though, were always specified in kilobits per second. The term "kilobaud" was commonly misused as a synonym for "kilobits/second" but in any case the "kilo" part there always meant 1000, never 1024.

    It was RAM manufacturers and computer engineers, not hard disk manufacturers, who invented the 1048576 bytes = "1 megabyte" convention, and in the PC market that was never a thing until after the 5 meg hard drive. So it's completely unfair to hold HD manufacturers responsible for any of the ensuing confusion.


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