Smashing the Vegetarian Vaccination Binary! #BecauseScienceIsStillAThing
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How did we survive for thousands of years before pesticides, etc. were invented?
By being hunter/gatherers? By everyone farming their own food and dying of starvation?
Current data shows that going to completely organic farming methods would likely only be able to support ~2 billion people. Which 5 billion do you want to starve to death?
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@Intercourse said:
We are already seeing this anti-vaccination movement causing a resurgence in diseases that we had long since eradicated here in the USA. THAT is the real harm.
Where is your data to support that?
There is data that overuse of antibiotics has created superbugs. Is it so far off to think that the immunizations suppressing/eliminating one strain of viruses wouldn't prompt nature to evolve a more robust (and possibly deadly) form of that same virus? What you're really seeing is the consequences of an as yet not fully understood process.
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You do realize that vaccines and antibiotics are two different things?
Look at how many people were killed in the past by diseases that are now all but gone here in the USA: Polio, smallpox, rubella, the list goes on and on. You are saying that vaccines have NOT saved lives?
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Whether my son dies of smallpox or mercury poisoning from immunization needle #12 (cumulative effect), he's just as dead.
But that's an "acceptable risk", right? A cure that saves 1000 and kills one is acceptable?
Apparently you don't realize that 1) thimerosal has not been used for the common childhood vaccines in the US for oh...a couple of decades now? and 2) even for specialized stuff, you can get a thimerosal-free formulation, it will just take extra lead time (and perhaps be slightly more expensive)
Is it so far off to think that the immunizations suppressing/eliminating one strain of viruses wouldn't prompt nature to evolve a more robust (and possibly deadly) form of that same virus? What you're really seeing is the consequences of an as yet not fully understood process.
The problem here is that we have no evidence that mass vaccination has provoked 'escape' mutations in a virus that is not already highly mutable to start with; in general, you prefer to target antigens that are essential to the virus's functioning when you are building a vaccine, as opposed to antigens that are there 'oh, just because it evolved in pigs millenia ago' and don't do anything useful any longer.
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Whether my son dies of smallpox or mercury poisoning from immunization needle #12 (cumulative effect), he's just as dead.
This calls for P.J. O'Roarke: "What the fuck? I mean, what the fucking fuck?"
The problem here is that we have no evidence that mass vaccination has provoked 'escape' mutations in a virus that is not already highly mutable to start with;
It doesn't even make sense, since the point of a vaccine is to teach your body to recognize it for what it is. Sure, maybe a deadly virus mutated to the point where a particular vaccine doesn't work, but at least you're protected from the original.
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But that's an "acceptable risk", right? A cure that saves 1000 and kills one is acceptable?
Ordinarily, of course, yes. But when that one is likely to be your son, you're a lot more willing to take your chances in the other direction.
I don't think you understand how statistics work. Or risk. The fact that chances are one thousand to one means that your child is one thousand times more likely to be in the 1000 than being the 1. If you were at the races, and someone told you a horse has a thousand to one chance of winning a race, would you bet against it?But let's assume, for the sake of argument, that one in one thousand children die because of vaccines (which they don't). Your position is that you don't want to expose your child to the one in one thousand chance of dying due to a vaccine, so you forgo all immunization. Take the risk in the other direction.
So, do you have any numbers for the risk of dying due to any of the diseases your children didn't get shots for? Because that is the risk you choose to take. Instead of 1/1000, you take x/1000. You're just assuming that x must be lower than 1.
You can use this site to check child mortality (http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.DYN.MORT) and immunization (http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.IMM.IDPT/countries?order=wbapi_data_value_2013+wbapi_data_value+wbapi_data_value-last&sort=asc): I can't make a detailed analysis now, but a quick check will show you that there's an inverse correlation between immunization and infant mortality rates. Now, that's attributable to many other related effects (countries with higher immunization percentages are generally richer and have more developed health infrastructure), but vaccination is one of the pillars of modern healthcare.
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You are aware that pretty much everything we eat whether has been modified by artificial selection? We've just got better at it.
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That is because antibiotics prescriptions were abused, and prescribed for pretty much everything including viral infections.
Vaccinations link to autism was total bullshit, there is a whole bloody wikipedia article about it. Now we have loads of people believing that vaccinations are bad and somehow everything natural is some sort of magic bullet even though pretty much everything we eat, drink and consume hasn't been natural since we agriculture was invented about 6000 years ago.
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1) Stopping immunizations
So GMO's are bad, because GMO crops can contaminate other crops, and then people who don't want GMO crops get it anyway.
But not getting immunized is good, even though your choice to die of measles could lead to other people, who don't want measles, to die of it?
And the reason it's good is because the mercury that isn't in immunizations doesn't cause autism.
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Notice that the first image shows per POUND.
So it's probably (though not guaranteed)
91
8.252
8.89*5They are all sold by different sellers who don't necessarily price the same way.
Scratch that, it's probably
$9 from the first seller for 1 pound
$8.25 from the second seller for 2 because they have good rates (comparatively)
$8.89 + absurd shipping to look competitive pricing.
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Most often, when dealing with a private case of a problem like autism, people make many undocumented changes along with the targeted change, such that they can't faithfully identify the critical cause of "recovery".
Very very small changes in stimuli with autistic children lead to drastic changes in behavior.
It's impossible to target one specific thing and change only that one thing.
For example, increased visits to the doctor to see if the introduction of organic diet, could in fact be the cause of the change. The child starts reacting to the doctor because of all the additional exposure to the doctor, and bam, the doctor sees a change. The positive reinforcement and hopelessness of the parents "convince" them that they see the change to. And bam, dramatic recovery because my cheerios are different.
Every child brain makeup is different. Concluding that positive changes in an autistic child due to avoiding a certain product, correlates to children that don't have autism avoid it by avoiding the same product, is psuedo-science.
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A giant field with rows and rows of one particular species of plant without interference of another species of plant....
.... is not natural.
Tell me the last time you saw a naturally occurring field of ONLY wheat.
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1) thimerosal has not been used for the common childhood vaccines in the US for oh...a couple of decades now? and 2) even for specialized stuff, you can get a thimerosal-free formulation, it will just take extra lead time (and perhaps be slightly more expensive)
- Not quite that long: http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Concerns/thimerosal/thimerosal_faqs.html#e
Also, what they don't tell you, is that they didn't destroy the stockpiled drugs. They used them until they ran out, which took years to go through. My son was born in 2002, and got thimerosal-containing immunizations per his medical records.
2) Get a thimerosal-free formulation: A) Not an option at his birth that anyone bothered to mention to me at the time, and B) I didn't know better back then anyway.As for the CDC claiming there is no correlation between Autism and Immunizations, I don't have direct access to material contravening that, but you can start here: http://www.autismone.org/content/new-evidence-associating-thimerosal-containing-vaccines-and-other-childhood-vaccines-autism-
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I am not sure what your point is.
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You do realize that Thimerosal is NOT elemental mercury. It is not harmful, and all of this outrage has actually made us LESS safe as a result.
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you can start here: http://www.autismone.org/content/new-evidence-associating-thimerosal-containing-vaccines-and-other-childhood-vaccines-autism-
Anyone looking for a good laugh can go to the About page, which contains statements like this:
AUTISM IS A PREVENTABLE/TREATABLE BIOMEDICAL CONDITION. Autism is the result of environmental triggers. Autism is not caused by "bad" genes and the epidemic is not the result of "better" diagnosis.
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Do you eat fish? Because you probably ingest more mercury in a few cans of tuna than the solution that contained that.
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But not getting immunized is good, even though your choice to die of measles could lead to other people, who don't want measles, to die of it?
Ok, somewhere in the last few hours when I had to go offline to fix an email server issue, this has devolved into an absolute of "immunizations are bad".
CLARIFICATION: Immunizations with Thimerosal are BAD. The current version is still an unknown. Further, Thimerosal was never a required ingredient - it was added by the drug companies. There is a LOT more information on this not readily available online. Start with autismone.org. Thousands of other parents with autistic kids have seen major improvements with their children just like mine by changing diet and avoiding immunizations.
But no, if it isn't written by some authority somewhere, it can't be true.
Right now I think I understand how Galileo felt when he was put under house arrest for saying the Earth went around the Sun. After all, isn't it OBVIOUS that the Sun rises in the East and sets in the West? (Quick, hide/burn/try to discredit any evidence that he might be right).
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CLARIFICATION: Immunizations with Thimerosal are BAD. The current version is still an unknown. Further, Thimerosal was never a required ingredient - it was added by the drug companies.
I am going to ask you directly, you do realize that there was NEVER any elemental mercury in vaccines. It was in a molecular compound that we call Thimerosal. These are not the same things...
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CLARIFICATION: Immunizations with Thimerosal are BAD.
But from the CDC page that you linked earlier
Although **no evidence suggests that there are safety concerns with thimerosal**, vaccine manufacturers have stopped using it as a precautionary measure.
Edit: But ok, maybe I'm the stupid one for trusting the CDC over the website that claims autism isn't genetic.
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Anyone looking for a good laugh can go to the About page, which contains statements like this:
AUTISM IS A PREVENTABLE/TREATABLE BIOMEDICAL CONDITION. Autism is the result of environmental triggers. Autism is not caused by "bad" genes and the epidemic is not the result of "better" diagnosis.
For the record my autistic son was genetically tested at the age of four. No genetic problems found.
And by handling his environment, he has improved. Laugh all you want - all I care about is I have my son back. I continue to write here because, if amongst all the ridicule and make-wrong here, the data I provide helps ONE person save an autistic child from a life of isolation and handicap, then it was all worthwhile.
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I continue to write here because, if amongst all the ridicule and make-wrong here, the data I provide helps ONE person save an autistic child from a life of isolation and handicap, then it was all worthwhile.
This is like some sort of ass-backwards, weird, Pascal's wager...
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Immunizations with Thimerosal are BAD
Which is why autism boomed in the 1930's, when we started using it.
I kid, I kid. Really, we should remove it from common vaccinations, just in case.
Except we already have- That must be why Autism has disappeared over the past decade.
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@Intercourse said:
I am going to ask you directly, you do realize that there was NEVER any elemental mercury in vaccines. It was in a molecular compound that we call Thimerosal. These are not the same things...
Mercury is a neurotoxin in any form. While the factor is different in Thimerosal form, nowhere is it claimed to be zero. http://www.epa.gov/mercury/health.htm
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Which is why autism boomed in the 1930's, when we started using it.
And the only time we have seen a boom in autism is when they changed the definition of what autism is to include a broader range of people. Want an epidemic? Make one.
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Laugh all you want - all I care about is I have my son back.
I'm glad you have your son back, and I'm sorry he had to go through any of this.
Immunizations did not cause it, and withholding them puts your son and his friends at risk of a horrible death.
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Mercury is a neurotoxin in any form.
NO IT IS NOT!! Holy christ! It is not elemental mercury.
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Immunizations did not cause it, and withholding them puts your son and his friends at risk of a horrible death.
That is the common consensus.
It will probably be decades before the underlying data that debunks that can be safely disseminated.
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Right now I think I understand how Galileo felt when he was put under house arrest for saying the Earth went around the Sun
Galileo had some evidence.
On the thimerosal:
"A 2014 meta-analysis examined ten major studies on autism and vaccines involving 1.25 million children worldwide; it concluded that neither the MMR vaccine nor the vaccine components thimerosal or mercury lead to the development of ASDs."
I am glad that you son is healthy, but there is no evidence that supports any of your assertions made here.
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Immunizations did not cause it
There is one possibility, probably impossible to prove: that my son was exposed to mercury somewhere else besides the Thimerosal in the immunizations he received as an infant/child. All I know is that exposure did take place, as he did have reactions that indicated so when he went through the detox program. :-/
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Mercury is a neurotoxin in any form.
This is just the biggest bunch of bullshit that the anti-vaccination group spread, and it is completely wrong.
Let me put it to you this way: Eat a lump of elemental sodium and you will at the very least get burned horribly. Eat sodium chloride and it is a great way to season your food. Just because a molecule contains an element, does not mean that element retains all of its properties. The wonders of chemistry!
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Galileo had some evidence.
But wasn't allowed to present it.
This is the situation with Immunizations and Thimerosal today.
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You aren't presenting evidence, you are presenting your anecdote as absolute truth. There is a big difference in not being allowed to present evidence and people not taking accepting your anecdote as evidence.
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But wasn't allowed to present it.
There has been no evidence, and no one has attempted to even shut up Jenny McCarthy despite her being certifiably batshit crazy.
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@Intercourse said:
Eat a lump of elemental sodium and you will at the very least get burned horribly. Eat sodium chloride and it is a great way to season your food. Just because a molecule contains an element, does not mean that element retains all of its properties. The wonders of chemistry!
Point to you.
But sodium chloride is an essential ingredient to life.
Question: Can you provide an example where Mercury in some form is essential to life?
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I will ask you again, do you eat fish? There is tons of heavy metals including mercury in fish but you don't see people blaming tuna for autism do you?
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@Intercourse said:
There has been no evidence
You didn't attend the last Autismone conference.
Discourse message:
At this point I realize I may appear unreasonable or even antagonistic on the subject. I certainly feel that way given what my wife and I had to go through to find effective measures to treat our son's autism. So I feel I have data to share. But without being able to provide you the evidence you ask for directly, all I can do at this point is fall into a frustrated silence.
I hope I didn't offend anyone too bad. Thank you for your time and attention to this matter.
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You didn't attend the last Autismone conference.
You won't find differing opinions in an echo chamber.
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But without being able to provide you the anecdotes you did not ask for when you asked for evidence, all I can do at this point is stop trying to push anecdotes as evidence.
FTFY
I am happy that your son has recovered, but vaccines did not cause it and organic foods did hot help in recovery.
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mercury somewhere else besides the Thimerosal in the immunizations he received as an infant/child.
How old is your son?
I ask because there's an excellent chance that his vaccinations didn't have Thimerosal.
However, if he's older, it's possible that some of them did- Just like yours did.
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You won't find differing opinions in
an echo chamber.a place where many people applied the same ideas and got the same results.FTFY
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12 years, born April 2002.
So the only thimerosal he was exposed to was from the yearly flu shot then, and possibly the DTaP vaccine (One formulation did use it).
See, I thought you stopped all vaccines. If you're just avoiding the ones that actually have thimerosal, my apologies.
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@Intercourse said:
ass-backwards
I have never understood this. Your ass is supposed to be backwards, and you, um, front forwards. Likewise, head-over-heels is right-side up; it's if your heels are over your head that you've fallen.
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Carbon monoxide is deadly, but both carbon and oxygen are necessary and present in the body. Boy, if they ever meet, it will be bad.
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No, you are actually contradicting yourself.
You just said that Galileo wasn't believed because of "common sense" ... yet you are saying the collectively because you have the same opinions and experiences that is somehow evidence?
Also collectivism still isn't proof of anything, a lot of people think Jesus saved them, doesn't prove that Jesus did ... it just proves that a lot of people believe they were saved by Jesus.
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What part of the following do you not get.
When people make drastic changes in their household like removing products or stopping immunizations, they also make a lot of tiny little behavior and environmental changes as well.
Autism is a very unknown condition that reacts greatly to behavior and stimuli related changes.
Therefore, it is likely that those stimuli changes are what helped.
Causing a fuss over correlation is a bad thing. It's caused all kinds of wreckage in the food industry without producing any real results, other than costing companies large sums of money by frivolous lawsuits.
Not only that, it ignores real treatment methods, like changing how you communicate to the child, and creating behavior changes, understanding triggers and why your child behaves certain ways.
What's worse is that when you remove the stimuli changes you haven't noticed, the problems will come back.
I'm on the autism spectrum, and there's this autistic girl that learned to communicate by keyboard. Everything she said clicked with me, and now I understand what's going on a lot more.
Flashing lights make me lose balance. Seeing too many faces gives me headaches. I can hear many conversations at once. A lot of the way people ignore stimuli, I have to learn to do manually or I get overwhelmed.
Autism spectrum - Wikipedia
