Windows 10 gets package manager



  • So after whining about it in one of the Windows 10 threads, guess what Microsoft does?

    Sweet!

    Now just to fix the shell and we can hopefully expect the bleeding of devs to Mac to start slowing down.



  • Its a shame there aren't more shell improvements in Windows 10. I've not tried the more recent build yet but in the first TP it still wasn't possible to just hit the maximise button and have Power shell in full screen. Putty manages it, seems it should be an easy thing to sort.


  • SockDev

    @cartman82 said:

    Now just to fix the shell and we can hopefully expect the bleeding of devs to Mac to start slowing down.

    Given just how many line-of-business programs are written for Windows, I don't see the loss of a handful of hipster hobbyists to be all that important.



  • Already exists something called "Chocolatey" that is working great !

    And it works on existing windows :)



  • So basically, MS will copy it in such a way that it will be crap and push it out of existence.



  • The one on Windows 10 uses the Chocolatey packages at the moment. Having it as a stock part of Windows is an improvement.


  • SockDev

    .... why did i not know this was a thing yet?

    @accalia wants!


  • area_deu

    Btw, Chocolatey is based on nuGet, which is a package manager for Visual Studio that is used to download libraries.
    Pretty cool that the concept might actually become used widely now!



  • @RaceProUK said:

    Given just how many line-of-business programs are written for Windows, I don't see the loss of a handful of hipster hobbyists to be all that important.

    That's a future ghetto, a software platform slowly calcifying into the next cobol. With 50-somethings working 9-5 and quietly maintaining 20 year old software. Or at least it will become that, if young hipster types who are pushing all the new tech don't stop leaving.


  • SockDev

    @cartman82 said:

    That's a future ghetto, a software platform slowly calcifying the next cobol. With 50-somethings working 9-5 and quietly maintaining 20 year old software. Or at least it will become that, if young hipster types who are pushing all the new tech don't stop leaving.

    If they are leaving, they're moving to Azure:
    http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2014/10/microsoft-posts-record-q1-on-strong-cloud-better-than-expected-hardware/

    Azure revenue was up **121** percent
    Hard to see that sort of growth unless you have people developing for the platform.




  • Sigh, why the fuck is microsoft so hardcore bent on TitleCase. I don't understand why any programmer wants to use shift so much.



  • because Java Used Camel Case. so, When CSharp Came Around...



  • @delfinom said:

    I don't understand why any programmer wants to use shift so much.

    Yeah, the underscores are so much, much better!... oh wait.

    Also, because we have IntelliSense, as opposed to hacking with edlin.

    @cartman82 said:

    young hipster types who are pushing all the new tech

    You do realize that all that shiny new hipster tech is, for the most part, a total fucking disaster?


    Filed under: case in point: this forum, or at least ember



  • @Maciejasjmj said:

    You do realize that all that shiny new hipster tech is, for the most part, a total fucking disaster?

    Like it or not, pretty much every new move Microsoft made in the last decade was coopting some crazy new OSS tech. Hipsters are the spearhead of development. Big guys are playing catch-up.

    But even though MS is trying really hard, they are too slow. Look at ASP MVC. They took rails and made it better. It's a fantastic framework. But who is using it? No one. Everybody's still on rails.

    Also, ember is actually pretty good. Angular too. It could just be the world isn't 100% ready for what Discourse is trying to do. Or at least, is just about becoming ready.



  • @cartman82 said:

    Look at ASP MVC. They took rails and made it better. It's a fantastic framework. But who is using it? No one. Everybody's still on rails.

    @cartman82 said:

    It could just be the world isn't 100% ready for what Discourse is trying to do.

    I'm also not 100% ready for anal exploration activities involving a cactus, two sets of chess pieces, and the entire boxset of M. Night Shyamalan's movies (including The Last Airbender director's cut).

    And I intend to stay that way.



  • @Maciejasjmj said:

    http://trends.builtwith.com/framework

    Intranet corporate stuff. Not the exciting public-facing stuff.



  • @cartman82 said:

    Also, ember is actually pretty good.

    Except on Linux, according to that other topic.


  • SockDev

    @cartman82 said:

    Intranet corporate stuff. Not the exciting public-facing stuff.

    And that matters, why?



  • @hungrier said:

    Except on Linux, according to that other topic.

    Linux or mobile?



  • @RaceProUK said:

    And that matters, why?

    See the cobol sleepy maintenance post above.

    @hungrier said:

    Except on Linux, according to that other topic.

    Performance in general. The same as with angular.


  • SockDev

    @cartman82 said:

    See the cobol sleepy maintenance post above.

    That explains nothing.



  • I got the impression that it was mostly Android but also desktop Linux.



  • @cartman82 said:

    Now just to fix the shell

    I know I've posted this a million times, but here it is again: Windows doesn't have a "the shell" to fix. Windows has many shells.

    @cartman82 said:

    and we can hopefully expect the bleeding of devs to Mac to start slowing down.

    Why would anybody move to Mac if they wanted a better development environment? Switch from Visual Studio to XCode? Hah!

    No, it's all trend-whores.



  • @RaceProUK said:

    That explains nothing.

    Make a site for intranet. You have fixed small number of users. Their satisfaction means little. No one outside the company will see your work. It's important work, sometimes challenging and interesting. But let's just say there's no great pressure to shoot for top quality.

    Make a site for the real world. Many people will see your work. Many more will complain, try to hack it, break it. Quality and good practices matters. Shooting for the top can pay off.

    All the best people will naturally move towards the second category. Will they use any Microsoft's products and technologies in their work? ATM, that's a decreasing trend.

    OK, you say, who cares? Fuck the hipsters. We can continue using the good stuff MS keeps pushing out, and let them suffer with OSS crap.

    Except, who do you think MS is making all the fancy new toys for? Who do you think they are trying to entice? It's certainly not for the enterprise people. who'd be happy to keep maintaining their VB6 apps until the 22nd century. Remember how Microsoft treated Internet Explorer before Firefox kicked their butt? That's how their entire programming stack will end up if current trends continue.

    I like MS technologies, but they can't keep focusing on developers without the hip cool crowd using their products and spreading the gospel. Corporate 9-to-5 code monkeys aren't enough.



  • @cartman82 said:

    Like it or not, pretty much every new move Microsoft made in the last decade was coopting some crazy new OSS tech.

    Yeah; but the Microsoft version of it FUCKING WORKS.

    @cartman82 said:

    Hipsters are the spearhead of development.

    Too bad they're not the spearhead of QA. Who gives a shit about Hipster JavaScript Library 43,432,324 if it's just as incomplete and buggy as 43,432,323?

    @cartman82 said:

    Big guys are playing catch-up.

    Catch up to what!?

    Name ONE programming tool in the open source world as complete as .net. Just one. In fact, that bar's too high because I know there ain't shit. Name one a THIRD as complete as .net.

    Look, hipster bullshit is on Mac and Linux not because the tools there are better (that's a ridiculous assertion I don't even know how to answer), but because hating Microsoft is KEWL! And hipsters want to look KEWL! all the time.

    Hell, whoever runs the DailyWTF Twitter account just yesterday made a "har har IE is so awful!" joke, despite the fact that IE hasn't been awful some... well nearly a decade now. I bet whoever wrote that hadn't even used IE in a decade. The "hating Microsoft is KEWL!" shit is goddamned EVERYWHERE.

    @cartman82 said:

    But even though MS is trying really hard, they are too slow. Look at ASP MVC. They took rails and made it better. It's a fantastic framework. But who is using it? No one. Everybody's still on rails.

    Wha...?

    Oh. You had me fooled. I thought you were posting seriously. I guess the nurses just forgot your meds.

    @cartman82 said:

    Also, ember is actually pretty good. Angular too. It could just be the world isn't 100% ready for what Discourse is trying to do. Or at least, is just about becoming ready.

    Uh, there's a little white button on your bed stand, just push it and make sure you get your prescriptions for today, ok?


  • area_deu

    /me gets her popcorn ready

    I feel like this could be really fun, depending on whether @cartman82 is being serious or making fun of people who think the hipsters are the future.


  • SockDev

    @cartman82 said:

    Make a site for intranet. You have fixed small number of users. Their satisfaction means little. No one outside the company will see your work. It's important work, sometimes challenging and interesting. But let's just say there's no great pressure to shoot for top quality.

    1. For various definitions of 'small', including but not limited to 'holy fucking shit that's a lot of users!'
    2. If you have even one user who isn't tech-savvy, you absolutely will have to shoot for top quality, or you'll have your arse handed to you over and over again
      @cartman82 said:
      Make a site for the real world. Many people will see your work. Many more will complain, try to hack it, break it. Quality and good practices matters. Shooting for the top can pay off.

      Because Facebook, Twitter et al are the paragon of security and reliability. Obviously. Y'know, aside from the NSA backdoors, Heartbleed, flaws in PHP/Node.js/[insert framework here], trivial stuff like that.
      @cartman82 said:
      All the best people will naturally move towards the second category.

      All the best people move where the money is, because they know they can get it.
      @cartman82 said:
      Will they use any Microsoft's products and technologies in their work?

      Pretty likely; there are innumerable .NET shops around the world.
      @cartman82 said:
      OK, you say, who cares? Fuck the hipsters.

      Yeah, fuck 'em in the ass with a huge black [That's enough! - Ed.]
      @cartman82 said:
      Except, who do you think MS is making all the fancy new toys for? Who do you think they are trying to entice? It's certainly not for the enterprise people. who'd be happy to keep maintaining their VB6 apps until the 22nd century.

      Obviously. But there's a trend away from the 'big bad enterprise', and to smaller, more flexible software houses, and a lot of them are using stuff like ASP.NET MVC, Razor, Azure, et al. All the latest jazz.
      @cartman82 said:
      Remember how Microsoft treated Internet Explorer before Firefox kicked their butt? That's how their entire programming stack will end up if current trends continue.

      Good thing there's plenty of competition from Amazon, Apple, Google, etc.
      @cartman82 said:
      I like MS technologies, but they can't keep focusing on developers without the hip cool crowd using their products and spreading the gospel. Corporate 9-to-5 code monkeys aren't enough.

      It's worked well for them for, what, 30 years now? And it'll keep working long after the hipsters have moved on to whatever shit they're peddling for the next thirty-three seconds.

    Does this technically count as doing a @blakeyrat?


  • @blakeyrat said:

    Yeah; but the Microsoft version of it FUCKING WORKS.

    It works better. But apparently not better enough.

    @blakeyrat said:

    Too bad they're not the spearhead of QA. Who gives a shit about Hipster JavaScript Library 43,432,324 if it's just as incomplete and buggy as 43,432,323?

    Important shit still gets built on it. If pure quality mattered, internet wouldn't be run on PHP and javascript.

    @blakeyrat said:

    Catch up to what!?

    Name ONE programming tool in the open source world as complete as .net. Just one. In fact, that bar's too high because I know there ain't shit. Name one a THIRD as complete as .net.

    Once again, confusing quality with importance.

    @blakeyrat said:

    Look, hipster bullshit is on Mac and Linux not because the tools there are better (that's a ridiculous assertion I don't even know how to answer), but because hating Microsoft is KEWL! And hipsters want to look KEWL! all the time.

    Hell, whoever runs the DailyWTF Twitter account just yesterday made a "har har IE is so awful!" joke, despite the fact that IE hasn't been awful some... well nearly a decade now. I bet whoever wrote that hadn't even used IE in a decade. The "hating Microsoft is KEWL!" shit is goddamned EVERYWHERE.

    And imagine how annoying it must be for Microsoft. They do all the right things. Make fantastic tools. And still, devs are flocking to Apple and *nix.

    They even invent the whole new design paradigm and make Apple copy from THEM, and still they are not seen as cool innovators they so desperately want to be.

    Sad.

    @blakeyrat said:

    Wha...?

    Oh. You had me fooled. I thought you were posting seriously. I guess the nurses just forgot your meds.

    Nobody uses ASP.NET for public facing stuff. It's either PHP for unambitious or one of the new techs for startups shooting for the stars. Which ensures the next bih thing won't be built using MS tech.

    @blakeyrat said:

    Uh, there's a little white button on your bed stand, just push it and make sure you get your prescriptions for today, ok?

    Your tears of debating frustration are medicine enough.

    @RaceProUK said:

    Because Facebook, Twitter et al are the paragon of security and reliability. Obviously. Y'know, aside from the NSA backdoors, Heartbleed, flaws in PHP/Node.js/[insert framework here], trivial stuff like that.

    Compared to your average intranet app, yes, it's better.

    @RaceProUK said:

    Obviously. But there's a trend away from the 'big bad enterprise', and to smaller, more flexible software houses, and a lot of them are using stuff like ASP.NET MVC, Razor, Azure, et al. All the latest jazz.

    I hope you're right. But I don't think so.

    @RaceProUK said:

    It's worked well for them for, what, 30 years now? And it'll keep working long after the hipsters have moved on to whatever shit they're peddling for the next thirty-three seconds.

    The same goes for cobol, vb6 and java.



  • @cartman82 said:

    Nobody uses ASP.NET for public facing stuff.

    @Maciejasjmj said:

    http://trends.builtwith.com/framework

    I'll point you to this site once again, this time pointing out that it takes its data from crawling the Internet.



  • @cartman82 said:

    And imagine how annoying it must be for Microsoft. They do all the right things. Make fantastic tools. And still, devs are flocking to Apple and *nix.

    Before we go any further, could you provide a shred of evidence of that?

    Also, please correct for the "you have to use Apple to code for iOS" thing, because that's a huge factor I think you aren't considering. A lot of people have Apple machines, do development on Apple machines, but PURELY to get access to a lucrative mobile market-- and they hate their dev environment with a passion. I personally know at least 3 people in this bucket.


  • SockDev

    @cartman82 said:

    Important shit still gets built on it. If pure quality mattered, internet wouldn't be run on PHP and javascript.

    like @Zoidberg! He's written in JS!


  • SockDev

    @cartman82 said:

    Nobody uses ASP.NET for public facing stuff

    Telerik doesn't count then? Or CodePlex? And I found at least three CMSs built in .NET with just a few minutes Googling.



  • I wonder what the Shroud of Turin tastes like.

    <!-- Posted by SockBot 0.12.5 "Guileful Ginny" on Tue Oct 28 2014 12:48:23 GMT-0400 (EDT)-->


  • @blakeyrat said:

    Before we go any further, could you provide a shred of evidence of that?

    Also, please correct for the "you have to use Apple to code for iOS" thing, because that's a huge factor I think you aren't considering. A lot of people have Apple machines, do development on Apple machines, but PURELY to get access to a lucrative mobile market-- and they hate their dev environment with a passion. I personally know at least 3 people in this bucket.

    Open a bunch of neutral tutorials (no microsoft or ios specific)
    Count presenters using Mac vs Linux vs Windows.

    Search YouTube for videos from latest conferences.
    Count the number of macs vs nix vs Windows machines. On the stage and in the audience.

    Any university lecturing hall. How many Macs, Windows, Linux machines in the audience.

    None of this was the case 5-10 years ago.

    And if you tell me those technologies are hipster trash and don't matter, then why will they appear cloned as a MS's latest tech a few years down the line?

    @everyone
    I'm talking about mindshare and future prospect, not the quality or current prevalence of technologies. You keep failing to grasp that.


  • I survived the hour long Uno hand

    I know what you mean, it feels like everyone is presenting Rails bullshit on a Mac.

    But that's just it -- it feels true, but ultimately, the percentage of people bragging on and on about their tech stack is low compared to the percentage of people getting on with building things without talking about it. If you went and polled everyone, you'd have a lot greater support for .net and even PHP than you see when following the blogosphere, because naturally, those that are talking endlessly about what stacks they use ARE the hipsters who jump on every new bandwagon just because it's new and shiny.



  • @RaceProUK said:

    Yeah, fuck 'em in the assear with a huge black [That's enough! - Ed.]purple cactus.
    FTFY



  • @Yamikuronue said:

    But that's just it -- it feels true, but ultimately, the percentage of people bragging on and on about their tech stack is low compared to the percentage of people getting on with building things without talking about it. If you went and polled everyone, you'd have a lot greater support for .net and even PHP than you see when following the blogosphere, because naturally, those that are talking endlessly about what stacks they use ARE the hipsters who jump on every new bandwagon just because it's new and shiny.

    The point is, all these blogs and videos and lectures are what's shaping the mindset of the next generation's top programmers. You might find a good mixture of PHP and .NET people today, but will you in 20 years? All the people congregating on sites like this will have grown up hacking on Macs and Linuxes and seeing Microsoft stuff as just some stale thing used by bald old men maintaining legacy MVC8 apps in their cubicles.



  • @cartman82 said:

    Search Yahoo for videos from latest conferences.Count the number of macs vs nix vs Windows machines. On the stage and in the audience.

    Of course they're all Macs; all the Windows and *nix people are busy doing work. :trolleybus:



  • @cartman82 said:

    Nobody uses ASP.NET for public facing stuff.

    That's the type of quote that you lose an election with.



  • @chubertdev said:

    That's the type of quote that you lose an election with.

    I NEVER SLEPT WITH THAT FRAMEWORK!


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @aliceif said:

    I feel like this could be really fun, depending on whether @cartman82 is being serious or making fun of people who think the hipsters are the future.

    I assumed he was trolling @blakeyrat.

    @blakeyrat said:

    A lot of people have Apple machines, do development on Apple machines, but PURELY to get access to a lucrative mobile market-- and they hate their dev environment with a passion. I personally know at least 3 people in this bucket.

    And this guy: http://www.textfromxcode.com/



  • It would have been quicker to type, "I don't have any references."

    @cartman82 said:

    @everyoneI'm talking about mindshare and future prospect, not the quality or current prevalence of technologies. You keep failing to grasp that.

    Right; but you're failing to grasp that we have no reason to believe anything you're saying right now.



  • @cartman82 said:

    The point is, all these blogs and videos and lectures are what's shaping the mindset of the next generation's top programmers.

    Top programmers will:

    1. Try all kinds of different programming languages and environments

    2. Use the best one for their needs

    You're not talking about "top programmers", you're talking about "attention whoring hipster programmers". That's not the same thing.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    It would have been quicker to type, "I don't have any references."

    Right. Find me scientific references for how people feel about a corporation and its technologies, and how that will influence the next 10-15 years. Cop out.

    @blakeyrat said:

    Right; but you're failing to grasp that we have no reason to believe anything you're saying right now.

    Why would you believe what an anonymous cartoon avatar has to say? Use your eyes and brain. Decide for yourself.

    @blakeyrat said:

    Top programmers will:

    1. Try all kinds of different programming languages and environments

    2. Use the best one for their needs

    You're not talking about "top programmers", you're talking about "attention whoring hipster programmers". That's not the same thing.

    But what you grow up with will define you.

    For example, if you never owned a Mac Classic during your formative years, would you still be such a staunch proponent of GUI over CLI? What if you had a DOS-based PC? What if your first company was a unix shop instead of windows?

    We all like to think we are masters of our destiny. The truth is, we are all shaped by the environment and culture around us. And for the next generation of top coders, the surrounding information landscape is increasingly being generated by Mac and OSS hipsters. That's my whole point.


  • I survived the hour long Uno hand

    @cartman82 said:

    the next generation of top coders

    The next generation of top coders are also influenced by what job openings are listed on glassdoor.com. And what universities are teaching. And what their favorite application was written in. Hell, they're probably influenced by whatever language their favorite game uses for mods long before they've ever seen a demo on youtube or attended a conference.



  • @cartman82 said:

    Right. Find me scientific references for how people feel about a corporation and its technologies, and how that will influence the next 10-15 years. Cop out.

    You're making the claim, it's your job to back it up.

    @cartman82 said:

    Why would you believe what an anonymous cartoon avatar has to say?

    I trust Sonic implicitly. I always listen to what he sez.

    Compilation Of Sonic Says – 32:52
    — Sapphire752

    @cartman82 said:

    For example, if you never owned a Mac Classic during your formative years, would you still be such a staunch proponent of GUI over CLI?

    Probably.

    @cartman82 said:

    What if you had a DOS-based PC?

    I did have a DOS-based PC. We also had a Commodore-64 in the house. And I had one of those "cool" Radio Shack PC-6 pocket computers.

    @cartman82 said:

    What if your first company was a unix shop instead of windows?

    I don't have any companies.

    My first IT job involved rather a lot of OS/400 and Novell Netware, believe it or not.

    OH NOES DID I BLOW YOUR MIND!?

    @cartman82 said:

    We all like to think we are masters of our destiny. The truth is, we are all shaped by the environment and culture around us. And for the next generation of top coders, the surrounding information landscape is increasingly being generated by Mac and OSS hipsters. That's my whole point.

    Right; but I go out of my way to expose myself to new stuff and stuff that's not new but I'm not familiar with. That's why I have a BeOS box on my bookshelf. And Corel Linux 1.0. And Redhat 6.2. (And those are just the ones old enough to have physical artifacts of.) That's why I took the time to learn more about the OS/400 system at that job than I needed to perform my job functions. And when I found out they had an OS/2 Warp system running the phones, I installed it on a spare PC and played with that, too. (It's really awful.) That's why I've gladly participated in projects using Java, Python, Ruby, and was about to join a Node.JS one before that one contract ended.

    That's because I like to consider myself good at what I fucking do, because I spend time getting good at it. My opinions are informed, whatever you may think.

    Shitty developers do what shitty developers do. I don't really care. Employers generally can tell the difference.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    I trust Sonic implicitly. I always listen to what he sez.

    Technically, after making that statement, you now trust him explicitly.



  • I don't flag for shit, go away.


  • SockDev

    i don't always agree with the blakey, but i also am not playing @HardwareGeek's game. no flags from me. ever.

    MWA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!


Log in to reply
 

Looks like your connection to What the Daily WTF? was lost, please wait while we try to reconnect.