Court reporter fined for courting reporting in court reporting.
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Still deaths though ... does it really matter if a horrific death is a crime or not?
Since I was talking about VIOLENT CRIMES, yes, it matters. You are trying to strawman my argument. Shut up.
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Yeah, well, that's a nice sentiment. But it's a crapshoot when it comes to reality.
There's a reason why several of my martial arts trainers said that they'd rather deal with a gun than with a knife. And once they're inside 5 meters, a gun won't help you much.
Given the option of having a means to defend myself, or call the police and wait around for 10-45 minutes while my home is pillaged and my family is assaulted, I will rather go with the former. Communists can have the latter.
On point #2, perhaps if the person never trains. I was raised with firearms. I shoot all the time. I can pretty much guarantee that if I a burglar comes in to my home, I can take him out within the 15' barrier.
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Present some better statistics or any evidence at all. I presented some evidence.
I don't think my wikipedia statistics for a second is concrete solid, but it was evidence that supported my opinion on the subject.
If you have some better numbers ... please enlighten me.
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One side of this is demonstrated in cities such as Chicago and Washington, D.C., where gun ownership is strictly regulated, violent and property crimes are higher than the national average
I don't know where I come down on this debate; I don't claim to be nearly informed enough. But this always seems to be an unusually-bad correlation-based argument to me. It seems at least equally likely to me that they have higher crime rates and so the leaders find it more necessary to institute stricter gun legislation.And that's not even getting into other effects like "cities tend to be more liberal for other reasons and so tend toward being more favorable of gun control" that would swing the correlation in that direction.
Three of those are not classified as violent crimes, at least not here in the US
The other thing is... why look at just violent crime? Why is that the right measure that would determine how strict gun control would be? If someone shoots me... I really don't care whether it was on purpose or by "accident."
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@Intercourse said:
Given the option of having a means to defend myself, or call the police and wait around for 10-45 minutes while my home is pillaged and my family is assaulted, I will rather go with the former. Communists can have the latter.
On point #2, perhaps if the person never trains. I was raised with firearms. I shoot all the time. I can pretty much guarantee that if I a burglar comes in to my home, I can take him out within the 15' barrier.
That's what my trainers called "false confidence" and tried to dissuade very much.
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It isn't a strawman ... it is that I think they are all horrible and should be avoided.
Present me a statistic or any sort of evidence where owning a gun would have reduced those deaths?
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There's a reason why several of my martial arts trainers said that they'd rather deal with a gun than with a knife.
Who in their right mind would knowingly get close to a martial artist with a gun?
It's interesting how many people--I don't have anyone in mind here--are all over the precautionary principle and "if it saves one life" yet are entirely willing to let people die in situations where a gun in a law-abiding citizen's hands would've been useful, like the Texas clocktower incident, or the Luby's incident.
Note I deliberately chose two different kinds of incidents there.
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That's what my trainers called "false confidence" and tried to dissuade very much.
Here's a scenario: If someone breaks down your front door, don't wait to see what he does next, or warn him not to take another step, instead, shoot him.
This can be legal, even if it's a cop. Follow the Cory Maye saga to it's conclusion.
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That may well be. But then you run into cultural differences which is one of the reasons why there is different reporting in the first place.
So you're trying to use the US as a template for the rest of the world, something which has gone wrong repeatedly in the past, sometimes spectacularly to boot.
Ok, you want something more? How about what happened to Austria in WWII - or was it I? They allied with the Germans on the condition they could keep at least some autonomy. A short while later, they had to register all their firearms "for their safety". A few months after that, any firearm not used for hunting had to be turned in "for their safety". A few months later, every privately owned firearm had to be surrendered, "for their safety". At this point, every firearm was registered, so you couldn't keep it in secret. Then, after the Austrians had surrendered every firearm, the Germans waltzed in and took over everything. The Austrian military had been absorbed and spread through the German military. The people couldn't make a stand because they'd been disarmed. They just had to take it in the ass. As a result, families were separated. The wealth of many was taken.
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@Intercourse said:
On point #2, perhaps if the person never trains. I was raised with firearms. I shoot all the time. I can pretty much guarantee that if I a burglar comes in to my home, I can take him out within the 15' barrier.
That's if he makes it inside the 15' barrier.
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Ok, you want something more? How about what happened to Austria in WWII - or was it I? They allied with the Germans on the condition they could keep at least some autonomy. A short while later, they had to register all their firearms "for their safety". A few months after that, any firearm not used for hunting had to be turned in "for their safety". A few months later, every privately owned firearm had to be surrendered, "for their safety". At this point, every firearm was registered, so you couldn't keep it in secret. Then, after the Austrians had surrendered every firearm, the Germans waltzed in and took over everything. The Austrian military had been absorbed and spread through the German military. The people couldn't make a stand because they'd been disarmed. They just had to take it in the ass. As a result, families were separated. The wealth of many was taken.
Um, how is that even relevant to the topic at hand? Unless you think that Canada is poised to invade you once you enact stricter gun laws?
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Present some better statistics or any evidence at all. I presented some evidence.
No, you presented a strawman.
It isn't a strawman ... it is that I think they are all horrible and should be avoided.
Yes it is. I was arguing that high percentages of gun ownership in an area has been shown to have a discouraging effect on violent crime. You then brought in gun deaths, which is only loosely related, as a way to attack what you thought my argument is. Strawman. I'm done discussing your meaningless statistic.
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That's if he makes it inside the 15' barrier.
Inside a home? Pretty much a given. You'll be lucky to have even 10 feet.
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The other thing is... why look at just violent crime? Why is that the right measure that would determine how strict gun control would be? If someone shoots me... I really don't care whether it was on purpose or by "accident."
The argument is that a violent criminal may be deterred by an individual confidently wielding a gun. There are also some statistics coming out which indicate the same may hold true for property crimes.
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That's if he makes it inside the 15' barrier.
Tueller drill normally quotes 21 feet, actually--I'd rather use that figure for safety.
(Psst, nobody tell @Rhywden I mentioned safety.)
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Some statistic please ... you didn't provide any.
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Inside a home? Pretty much a given. You'll be lucky to have even 10 feet.
You ever have someone try to batter down your front door with a 4x4 beam? I actually have. If he hadn't fled when he heard my dogs, I would have shot him as he came through the door, because I had advance warning people were considering home invasions in my neighborhood.
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Um, how is that even relevant to the topic at hand? Unless you think that Canada is poised to invade you once you enact stricter gun laws?
A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
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Oh, yes, the "What was right for the 19 century surely goes for the 21st!" argument
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Inside a home? Pretty much a given. You'll be lucky to have even 10 feet.
I've got a 20' hallway in one part of my house.
There's a 25' LOS from my bedroom door to the front door, and enough obstacles to keep that distance for several seconds.
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Oh, yes, the "What was right for the 19 century surely goes for the 21st!" argument
They obviously needed something like that in Austria last century!
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Some statistic please ... you didn't provide any.
And you haven't acknowledged your strawman. What's your point?
If you really want some stats, research Kennesaw, Georgia. I've mentioned the town several times now.
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I've got a 20' hallway in one part of my house.
There's a 25' LOS from my bedroom door to the front door, and enough obstacles to keep that distance for several seconds.
You're naively optimistic that you're getting the full distance.
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You're naively optimistic that you're getting the full distance.
That depends on timing and situation, doesn't it? I'm just saying it's possible.
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Some stats please.
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They obviously needed something like that in Austria last century!
Right. Read your history books again. You might have missed the fact that Austria pretty much willingly went over to Nazi Germany.
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That depends on timing and situation, doesn't it? I'm just saying it's possible.
If you're hoping for the best circumstances then you're doing it wrong.
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Right. Read your history books again. You might have missed the fact that Austria pretty much willingly went over to Nazi Germany.
Ummmm:
How about what happened to Austria in WWII - or was it I? They allied with the Germans on the condition they could keep at least some autonomy.
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If you're hoping for the best circumstances then you're doing it wrong.
My mantra is "Hope for the best, plan for the worst."
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Ummmm:
Right. And you think that even had they kept their arms that there would have been open revolution in the streets? Seriously?
Have you ever been to Austria?
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That's what my trainers called "false confidence" and tried to dissuade very much.
Better than calling a policeman with a billy club who might get here within the hour in his Vauxhall Astra diesel?
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@Intercourse said:
Better than calling a policeman with a billy club who might get here within the hour in his Vauxhall Astra diesel?
Our policemen are armed and quite a bit faster than that.
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Some stats please.
Wow a broken record.
One last try. You have two options:
- Disavow your strawman and try providing statistics which actually counter my arguments. I can work with those.
- Here's why your strawman sucks: if I want to kill you, I will use whatever weapon is closest to hand. Gun, knife, baseball bat, I don't give a damn.
- Look into Kennesaw, Georgia. There's plenty of statistics connected to the relevant wikipedia page.
- Disavow your strawman and try providing statistics which actually counter my arguments. I can work with those.
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Inside a home? Pretty much a given. You'll be lucky to have even 10 feet.
You must have a smaller home than mine. ;)
Some statistic please ... you didn't provide any.
Statistics prove nothing. Statistics prove correlation, that does not prove causation, you fucking nitwit.
The USA has a mental health problem, not a gun problem. You could put a loaded gun every 10', unlocked, down every street in America and not have a problem if you do not have people who want to kill each other.
Do you honestly think that some nutter has ever thought, "Oy, I want to kill that fucking bastard, but I don't have a gun so I will just fuck off to the pub instead and shoot some pool"?
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Our policemen are armed and quite a bit faster than that.
Fuck off. I have friends on the police force and even they will tell you that police are an entirely reactionary measure and that unless one is cruising through your neighborhood at that particular moment the call comes in, you will be waiting a while. They drive cars, not teleporters.
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@Intercourse said:
You must have a smaller home than mine. ;)
Unless you've got massively wide open spaces, like, say, an indoor olympic swimming pool, I don't see why you should calculate with any longer distances.
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@Intercourse said:
That also. Even myself, on here, try to keep things pretty anonymous. People know I am a male, roughly 35, with a 3 year old toddler and a wife, who owns an IT company somewhere in the USA. As much as I have used this place to bitch about particular customers, I try to keep it that vague.
Edited because I made it appear as though my wife owns the company, though I suppose by default she owns half of it. Sort of.
That fits me too, just add a few years.
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Have you ever been to Austria?
Yes,
Right. And you think that even had they kept their arms that there would have been open revolution in the streets? Seriously?
Hard to say. I was in Austria in 2001. That gives me no insight into how it might have been back in the 1930s and 1940s. Were you there back then?
To answer your question: Probably not. If anything, it probably would have been more of a guerrilla revolution. Who knows what kind of effect that would have had. Obviously the Germans were worried about some sort of revolution, or they wouldn't have even bothered with a project that took more than a year to collect guns from the Austrians.
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Yes,
Right. And you think that even had they kept their arms that there would have been open revolution in the streets? Seriously?
Hard to say. I was in Austria in 2001. That gives me no insight into how it might have been back in the 1930s and 1940s. Were you there back then?
To answer your question: Probably not. If anything, it probably would have been more of a guerrilla revolution. Who knows what kind of effect that would have had. Obviously the Germans were worried about some sort of revolution, or they wouldn't have even bothered with a project that took more than a year to collect guns from the Austrians.
They had plenty of guerilla action, Just like Germany, by the way. The overwhelming part of the population were collaborators, just like in Germany.
And just like in Germany, they would have loved nothing more than to forget and repress the memories, calling themselves victims. Due to the last part (painting themselves as victims), working up the past went not so well and quite a lot of former Nazis wound up in leading positions.
If you go against the grain politically, it's not a nice country to be in.
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I'd rather be silent than quote you
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Oh, yes, the "What was right for the 19 century surely goes for the 21st!" argument
By that logic, we should switch which side of the road we drive on every once in a while.
Human nature doesn't change all that much, and certainly not very fast. There's always jackbooted thugs.
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If you go against the grain politically, it's not a nice country to be in.
That describes a lot of countries.
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If you're hoping for the best circumstances then you're doing it wrong.
From all appearances, your solution is to foreclose on the possibility, and yet people shoot intruders in the US on a regular basis. Why are you so in favor of taking away women's potential ability to avoid being raped?
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@Intercourse said:
Fuck off. I have friends on the police force and even they will tell you that police are an entirely reactionary measure and that unless one is cruising through your neighborhood at that particular moment the call comes in, you will be waiting a while. They drive cars, not teleporters.
Not only that, but the cops don't have a duty to protect any particular person, by which they mean, specifically, "too fucking bad if they don't get there in time to keep you from getting robbed/raped/killed."
Maybe the situation's different in Germany, and all the cops teleport instantly to crime scenes, though.
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Really, @ben_lubar? TDEMSYR.
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That describes a lot of countries.
Well, yes. But they recently had a court process against a left-leaning person which could only be described as a kangaroo court. Zero evidence, contradictory testimonies by the police and he was held in investigative custody for 6 months. The indictment made him out to be a terrorist, the judge dismissed exculpatory evidence and copied some of the inflammatory language of the prosecutor.
His supposed crime? A ringleader*) during a demonstration who allegedly threw a stone**). Oh, and he tipped over a trashcan***).
*) Ringleader because he used his mobile during the demonstration (he received a call from his girlfriend 800 km away) and was supposed to have screamed: "Onward!" Well, the scream could be heard on the video tapes - only, it wasn't his voice.
**) No witness actually saw him throw a stone. But someone did throw a stone. So it might as well have been him, or so the logic goes.
***) No witness saw him do that as well. But the video tapes showed him putting the thing upright again. So he probably turned it over before.The demonstration was against a festivity by extreme-right groups. To put it into perspective: Imagine the KKK having a party in the White House.
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To put it into perspective: Imagine the KKK having a party in the White House.
Except the KKK is left-wing.
Before you try to argue, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_Klux_Klan.
"As a secret vigilante group, the Klan targeted freedmen and their allies; it sought to restore white supremacy by threats and violence, including murder, against black and white Republicans. "
" In 1874 and later, newly organized and openly active paramilitary organizations, such as the White League and the Red Shirts, started a fresh round of violence aimed at suppressing blacks' voting and running Republicans out of office. These contributed to segregationist white Democrats regaining political power in all the Southern states by 1877."
"During this period, the[ third KKK] often forged alliances with [...] with governor's offices, as with George Wallace of Alabama." Who was a noted Democrat famous for saying "In the name of the greatest people that have ever trod this earth, I draw the line in the dust and toss the gauntlet before the feet of tyranny, and I say segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever."
Etc., etc.
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Ah, yes, I see. You should have been clearer in your language.
that's a joke, son.
A lot of ignorant people think the KKK was a right-wing organization.
