'Need you to work this weekend' advice
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Damnit you hanzoed the image!
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But went on to admit my fault. I can put it back, if you think anyone would find it interesting. Put it back with my admission of guilt.
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Also, since everyone else all agree with the same opinion, I shall voice the opposition (@boomzilla LOVES when I do this)!
Suck it up, work on the weekends and rack up your 100 hours/week of unpaid overtime, and be thankful they don't fire you for your insubordination.
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That's how conspiracy theories start.
For what it's worth, those rules don't apply in CA which passed their own a few years back. But I don't live in CA, so I don't know what the CA rules are.
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That would explain why the second document she sent me now, which is from USC, contradicts the first. The second one is what they reference for CA law. I cannot find a link to the document though.
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@Intercourse said:
The second one is what they reference for CA law. I cannot find a link to the document though.
Maybe she mysteriously deleted it!
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No, I have it. I just cannot link to it from her source.
Here is a link to the original full document that I references. Let me find one for CA, because they are basically a different country when it comes to employment law.
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http://www.calchamber.com/california-employment-law/pages/exempt-nonexempt-employees.aspx
Of course the link to the "Computer Professional" checklist is a dead link...
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@Intercourse said:
Of course the link to the "Computer Professional" checklist is a dead link...
Another conspiracy!
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Yeah, want to become further confused? I just found another source that conflicts the prior source and says that a "computer programmer" would not be classified as exempt under their test. Assuming I read it correctly of course. ;)
http://www.shrm.org/templatestools/samples/hrforms/articles/pages/1cms_018238.aspx
You know what? I nearly did it again. I read it incorrectly, but I am going to post this anyway just to show what an asshat I can be at times and how apparently I struggle with reading today. I give up for today. See you guys tomorrow.
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If you're paid more than poverty wages and you work at a desk in an office, you're probably legitimately exempt.
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FTFY - They're exploiting you because you let them.
This is true. I'm not even going to disagree with your FTFY, because it's true.
I do think it's funny, in a sad way, that people think I've been here 3-4 years and, seriously, how have I put up with this for that long?
I'm less than half a year from being here for a decade. I've told myself that the main reason I've stuck around the last 3-4 years is because I was an idiot and bought a house, and couldn't get out from under it. This is the only software company for an hour and a half commute, and I've always said if I leave, I'm GTFOing this state. Of course, that's just an excuse, and the main reason is because it's scary.
Still, it's not like I'm being paid horribly. If I was working 40 hours only and had enough spine to not get voluntold to do things on overtime, I'd probably be doing pretty good on the dollars per hour category. I mean, sure, I'd love to make 100k a year, but I doubt that'll happen anytime soon.
I'm going to end up having to take a lower-paid position elsewhere, but I'm starting to be OK with that if the work/life balance is better. I'll miss my coworkers, but that's about it.
Actually freaked my direct supervisor off today, he came in to ask me to do something, I looked him in the eye and said, "Ask me to do that, and I'll quit right here". Now I don't have to do that, and he's doing a bunch of leg-work to try and get me hardware to test with. I'll still have to set it up, because god knows the systems people are just so darned busy doing something else, but at least I'll have the hardware. It's not like hooking up cables and switches is hard to do.
And yes, I realize that I'm a complete coward and push over. You'd think I'd have realized that working hard isn't going to get you anywhere. Now I'm in my mid 30s, and I'm just like, "Seriously, WTF, why did I decide I wanted to do this again?"
On the upside, I've got a new appreciation for decent beer.
I'm not a lost cause, I swear, I'm just slow! :)
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@CodeNinja said:
Of course, that's just an excuse, and the main reason is because it's scary.
I understand that.
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Wait, wait, wait!
I'm a Linux admin, and make about 100K a year. No degree, nothing special.
You're a programmer with a degree that's been at a company for 10 years?
Yeah. Austin/San Antonio, TX would average pay you (depending on language(s)) 120-140K starting out.
I guess you don't go to Glass Door often. You might want to.
EDIT: Also, most companies allow remote developers at those rates. I sit on my butt in my house for a living.
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Also, since everyone else all agree with the same opinion, I shall voice the opposition (@boomzilla LOVES when I do this)!
Suck it up, work on the weekends and rack up your 100 hours/week of unpaid overtime, and be thankful they don't fire you for your insubordination.
It's like Nagesh never left.
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@CodeNinja said:
And yes, I realize that I'm a complete coward and push over. You'd think I'd have realized that working hard isn't going to get you anywhere. Now I'm in my mid 30s, and I'm just like, "Seriously, WTF, why did I decide I wanted to do this again?"
On the upside, I've got a new appreciation for decent beer.
I'm not a lost cause, I swear, I'm just slow!
Move to San Diego, everything will be better (including the beer).
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Not really. The only reason this train of conversation came to mind was that it is one of the things my wife has been working on for the past few weeks. Tons of jobs at her company were classified as exempt that should not have been. That triggered a company-wide audit of positions. Most people in your average business will be non-exempt. You can still pay them on a salary basis, but if they work over 40 hours in a week, you are required to pay them overtime.
You really have to be a key player (or apparently a programmer) in order to be exempt. General admin people would not be exempt.
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Wait, wait, wait!
You're a programmer with a degree that's been at a company for 10 years?
Yeah. Austin/San Antonio, TX would average pay you (depending on language(s)) 120-140K starting out.
I guess you don't go to Glass Door often. You might want to.
Actually, I do, it's somewhat depressing. Honestly, I was really hoping to get to add, 'Senior', to my title as that would bump my future pay scale up at any prospective employers. Right now they look at my resume and see some idiot who has been with a company for almost 10 years and hasn't hit Senior yet.
Also, my degree is kind of bunk. It's from a for profit school (Full Sail), so my educational background is sketchy to begin with. I can usually pick up new things pretty quickly, but I don't tend to know the technical terms for things until someone points it out or I stumble across it in a Google search.
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@CodeNinja said:
I looked him in the eye and said, "Ask me to do that, and I'll quit right here".
Yay!
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@CodeNinja said:
I can usually pick up new things pretty quickly, but I don't tend to know the technical terms for things until someone points it out or I stumble across it in a Google search.
Which usually makes for a really great employee, but also someone who interviews very poorly. A lot of the time those who interview you will use very proper terminology and be dismissive if you use the wrong term, like "whatchamacallit".
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@CodeNinja said:
I was really hoping to get to add, 'Senior',
You've been there 10 years and you haven't been given a 'Senior' yet?
Fuck that place and go somewhere that appreciates your work. You can probably get hired as a senior position as long as you show you know what you're talking about. Don't be afraid to ask them to modify the position title - if you show you are senior, most companies will.
TL;DR; don't wait until your an actual senior citizen to get the senior title.
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@CodeNinja said:
Actually freaked my direct supervisor off today, he came in to ask me to do something, I looked him in the eye and said, "Ask me to do that, and I'll quit right here". Now I don't have to do that, and he's doing a bunch of leg-work to try and get me hardware to test with.
Congrats. You've made a little wave and it paid off short-time. Now use that opened up time to start looking for job alternatives and get the fuck out of that hell hole of a sweatshop. You have no future there.
Most of your colleagues accept structural unpaid overtime and have kept on working there under those conditions for years. There are two types of people that stick around in places like that and under those conditions:
- Those that can't cut it elsewhere, and
- Those without the spine or ambition to improve further.
Either of those is not a productive environment to foster your own career and both combined is enough to kill it in its tracks.
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There are two types of people that stick around in places like that and under those conditions:
- Those that can't cut it elsewhere, and
- Those without the spine or ambition to improve further.
Yeah, I know this.
I'm really worried I'll be the first one. I'm very much a huge nerd (and not just because I'm a lard-ass). I don't do the whole, 'wear slacks and a tie' thing very well. I grew up on a freaking farm. Jeans and a t-shirt with some comfy sneakers are more my speed.
Sad thing is, I can see myself fitting into both categories. I need to fix this.
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@CodeNinja said:
I'm really worried I'll be the first one.
@CodeNinja said:
Sad thing is, I can see myself fitting into both categories.
A few things:
- You mentioned you learn fast and you know how to look things up.
- Even if you don't have the requisite theoretical background and the exact right terminology, you can manage work things out.
- You post here. You recognize stupid when you see it.
- You're stepping up to the plate now.
These speak to your character and your learning ability. Find a company that respects that and which will allow you to show off what your capabilities promise when you interview with them.
A friend of mine with that exact same profile (except worse; he flunked out and has no degree at all) jumped from part-time contracted developer, to full-time engineer, to team lead to full blown architect in (I think) about 3 years time that way. These companies still exist, but you'll find them in between the start-up companies and the big moguls. I'd consider looking at niche markets growing into IT solutions. This is most often where flexibility; the means to rapidly adapt and learn, are appreciated.
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I wonder how much of that is a self fulfilling prophecy.
Bear in mind that one of the major disproofs of the "wymyn only make 77 cents to the man's dollar" is comparing women to men in the same phase of their career.
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The issue here is that you only learn to set expectations through experience. They don't teach this stuff in college.
+1, QFT, etc. CN, this is good advice.
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@Intercourse said:
Most people who work salary are also entitled to overtime. Just because you are salary, does not make you ineligible for overtime.
A lot of people don't know this. Exempt people are generally expected to have a high degree of decision-making in their job[1]. IOW if you're a low-level grunt programmer who codes to spec given to you by an architect, you probably are not exempt.
[1] I know there's a clearer way of saying that. :(
ObFuckYouAtwoodIllReplyAsManyTimesAsIWant.
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@Intercourse said:
Should they remember it? Absolutely. But I can nearly guarantee that they won't.
A cathartic way to deal with this--especially if you have the money saved to quit--is to walk in and point out that you're not giving them freebies any longer.
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@CodeNinja said:
Actually freaked my direct supervisor off today, he came in to ask me to do something, I looked him in the eye and said, "Ask me to do that, and I'll quit right here". Now I don't have to do that, and he's doing a bunch of leg-work to try and get me hardware to test with.
Yes!
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Watching you go out of your way not to apologize to him is entertaining. Just thought you'd like to know.
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@CodeNinja said:
Jeans and a t-shirt with some comfy sneakers are more my speed.
99% of tech jobs are more or less like this. Most that I've actually worked for (financial industry) require a business casual stance (sneakers, jeans/pants, some type of collared shirt, polo is fine) - It's generally only suit and tie if you're directly in the client's vantage point.
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I aim to please, unless it is @blakeyrat.
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Also, since everyone else all agree with the same opinion, I shall voice the opposition (@boomzilla LOVES when I do this)!
Suck it up, work on the weekends and rack up your 100 hours/week of unpaid overtime, and be thankful they don't fire you for your insubordination.
The shittiest part of this post is that there are lots of people who actually believe it, and think like that. Generally they're the people who have never had to do a day's worth of serious work in their life.
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@darkmatter said:
Also, since everyone else all agree with the same opinion, I shall voice the opposition (@boomzilla LOVES when I do this)!
Suck it up, work on the weekends and rack up your 100 hours/week of unpaid overtime, and be thankful they don't fire you for your insubordination.The shittiest part of this post is that there are lots of people who actually believe it, and think like that. Generally they're the people who have never had to do a day's worth of serious work in their life.
They should be forced to hold a job where it is literally illegal to work more than slightly over 40 hours/week on a regular basis, then.Filed under: hours of service regulations? what are those?</a?
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Over here, lorry drivers have regulated hours, and a physical device in their truck registering whether they kept to them. When checked, every violation in the last 2 weeks (even in a different country) can be fined.
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@CodeNinja said:
This is the only software company for an hour and a half commute
If it wasn't for the fact that Florida is long and skinny with big chunks of nothing in between the cities, I'd wonder if I know you from my last job.
@CodeNinja said:
I've always said if I leave, I'm GTFOing this state
Do it. Florida is a cesspit.
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@CodeNinja said:
Jeans and a t-shirt with some comfy sneakers are more my speed.
There are plenty of places where "jeans and a polo shirt" is fine. That's not much of an upgrade from a tee.
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@CodeNinja said:
Good lord, yes. It even smells like it at times.
Just be glad that you're not in New Jersey.
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(Off-topic, but I think those two bulletpoints also explain why women make less in the workplace. I'd also like to see a comparison between the salaries of people who always take the first offer, compared to those who do at least one round of salary negotiation.)
Years back I saw one .. in a totally / somewhat unrelated field, though. According to a study by (or at least reported by) the Swedish Union of University Graduates of Law, Business Administration and Economics, Computer and Systems Science, Personnel Management, Professional Communicators and Social Science JUSEK reported 2008 that those men and women who had given an expected salary requirement to the employer got approximately 2000 SEK (now USD ~275) more per month compared to those who didn't mention the salary at all in the interview or in their application. It was also reported that men who actually negotiated about the salary with the prospective employer got 1500 SEK [USD ~200) extra per month on top of that. The study also showed that 55 % of people that had answered hadn't given their salary requirement in the employment process but just taken what they were offered.
The average beginner level salary for lawyers, economists etc was approximately USD 3 000 per month (USD 36 000 per year) according to the same study, so the sums may not be totally off. The employment systems in USA and Scandinavia are very different, but still - based on this it's very possible that by taking the first offer you might end up with USD 475 less per month, which is USD 5700 in a year.
I found the numbers from an old issue of the union's web paper. In the same paper there was a summary of a dissertation in psychology concerning salary negotiation among economy students at the University of Lund in Sweden. The author had found that women set lower goals and ask for lower salaries than what men do. She also refers to "some American studies", according to which some people consider women who ask for high salary unfriendly and bothersome to deal with.
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@Intercourse said:
http://www.calchamber.com/california-employment-law/pages/exempt-nonexempt-employees.aspx
Of course the link to the "Computer Professional" checklist is a dead link...
By poking around a bit, it's possible to find it. Except, it's a preview; the real thing is behind a paywall.
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I have prepared a screed, but do not want to unleash it unnecessarily...
So, a question.
Is anyone out there defending the idea that IT-folk should strictly "work to rule". (E.g. "I worked 42 hours last week, where's my money?")
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@Intercourse said:
General admin people would not be exempt.
That's absolutely true. But they should be a very small minority of the people, so my statement should stand.
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kinda a pussy
spineless
While I agree he should move on, this seems a bit extreme.
he was mad at me
Ah. Yes, well, like you said, that's his own fault more than yours.
women make less in the workplace
My theory is to do with aggression being an expected yet overrated attribute. In my experience, women have less of it. I say this because aggression is a tool for dealing with threats. By expecting aggression from you, people are telling you they are the enemy.
Self-esteem is also a factor, even though your value should not be judged on your self-esteem. To say otherwise is fallacious, as it results in the employment of arrogant turd-brained incompetents. You would think companies would crash under the weight of this fallacy more, but it seems to take a long time for that to happen while the organisation limps along and fires people with low self-esteem to cut costs.
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@Intercourse said:
Should they remember it? Absolutely. But I can nearly guarantee that they won't.
This is called Convenient Amnesia. It's one of the many things managers have in common with criminals. The difference being that criminals use it as a defense, while managers use it as an excuse to attack.
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In my experience, women have less of it.
You're just not paying attention. They have plenty of aggression, but it typically manifests differently than with males.
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Is anyone out there defending the idea that IT-folk should strictly "work to rule". (E.g. "I worked 42 hours last week, where's my money?")
Not the last clause, but I have - at times - turned up 'on time', done work, and left 'on time.' It was noticed, and things improved.
For a while at least. I'm of a mind to start doing it again, soon...
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This is called Convenient Amnesia. It's one of the many things bad managers have in common with criminals. The difference being that criminals use it as a defense, while managers use it as an excuse to attack.
FTFY
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That's absolutely true. But they should be a very small minority of the people, so my statement should stand.
Not really. We work with a lot of businesses and in many sectors of business there are quite a few administrative people for every person who is directly making money. It also depends upon your definition of admin. It is actually a pretty deep subject. In general though, unless you have several people reporting to you and you are a policy maker, you would likely be non-exempt according to USDOL standards.
