Tab where?

  • Found this bug while logging another bug:

    1. click create topic
    2. type in topic name
    3. hit the Tab key
    4. wonder why it doesn't set the focus to the category drop down, where it belongs

  • Start typing post
    Hit "cancel"
    "Modal" dialog pops up
    Tab doesn't toggle back and forth between "Yes, abandon" and "No, keep"

    Not a fan of the modal dialog on the web

  • :belt_onion:

    Tab is for people who like using their keyboard and do stupid shit like use hotkeys on websi... ohhhhh

    Discoursistency for you.

  • No repro, did they fix this?

  • Possibly, the Sitepoint people (@cpradio in particular) are advocating for accessibility.

  • Though I'm not sure we were responsible for fixing it... so color me confused :confused:

  • Apparently they fixed the linked bug too. Though PageDown still behaves ridiculously when an edit-post textarea has focus - it scrolls both your post and the page. And it seems like sometimes PageUp will scroll the page down.

  • Banned

    Many of the older issues are fixed, if they are significant enough.. rationale is here

  • Your list is missing one huge point which IMO should be #1:

    1. Do things break if we don't implement it?

    Look, we don't make many feature requests. No point here, since they obviously won't agree with the Philosophy of Discourse - we just don't see the world the way you guys do, and we kinda got used to it.

    But we do bug reports. And since we're a community of developers pretty much trained to find flaws in software, we do valuable bug reports. We find things that are broken - small or big, but it's rarely "we don't like it this way", it's often "this is just wrong".

    And democratic vote is fine when it comes to feature requests, but when it comes to bug reports, it's really not the way to go. Do you trust three random guys who used your software for a while and generally liked it more than you trust your QA engineer who's chewing you off? And less pedantic people would rarely report most bugs - perhaps because they've been drinking the same Kool-Aid on other forums and generally think that's the way it was, perhaps because they're not developers and what seems like a tiny flaw to them is actually a sign of something horribly wrong with the code, or perhaps because they're just too lazy.

    You're practicing Complaint-Driven Development. And We. Are. Complaining.

    PS. Want a feature request? Clean up and document that damn REST API, because it's cool on the outside, but is still useless for developers.

  • Banned

    You are complaining, yes, but your volume button is broken, and you complain about everything, all the time, with no distinction between "prevents normal use of product" and "minor, rarely encountered inconvenience". You are also extremely rude at times.

    (by you I don't mean you literally, but "this community")

    How something is said is as important as what was said. We are listening, but we will apply our own filters.

  • @codinghorror said:

    (by you I don't mean you literally, but "this community")

    Is "you guys" too damn hard to type out?

    Filed under: maintaining a reputation

  • SockDev

    So what's your excuse for not listening to... say... anyone else in the community?

    We have noticed a trend that it doesn't seem to matter what any of us say, it's automatically wrong because it's us.

    I, personally, have something of a grudge because I actually come from one of those toxic hellstew 90s era forums, where so many lessons could have been learned from what they already did - and I was quite prepared to share everything I'd seen - but because you're so adamant you're not interested in anything they have to say, you're also ignoring the wealth of experience of things that should be avoided too.

  • Banned

    How is this remotely true? We have fixed dozens upon dozens of things reported here. And we've added many requested features. Some of the feedback is even reasonable, at times!

  • SockDev

    Yes, you fixed 'dozens upon dozens' and denied plenty more as not being bugs when we were telling you they were.

    Some of the feedback is reasonable at times, sure. We were all very reasonable to start with because we thought you were actually treating us like programmers. Then it became clear you weren't interested in listening to what our collective experience has to say and just get incredibly selective about it - only to then try to persuade us that you're listening to us when you're only listening to the bits that you liked out of what we said.

  • Banned

    If you want a project where every single bit of feedback you give is treated as sacrosanct and perfect, of the highest priority... there is only one solution: start your own project.

  • @codinghorror said:

    If you want a project where every single bit of feedback you give is treated as sacrosanct and perfect, of the highest priority... there is only one solution: start your own project.

    No, we don't want that. But you have priority issues. Bugs should be !important on your priority list, because they actively scare off people. And you wouldn't even know that, because people who get hit in the face by bugs the first time they use your program won't register on meta.d and bother to file reports. They'll just install phpBB.

    @codinghorror said:

    How something is said is as important as what was said.

    Do you disregard your QA's opinion if he was rude to you?

  • @Maciejasjmj said:

    Bugs should be !important on your priority list

    You are correct, they are !important on their list.

  • area_deu

    CSS is TRWTF?

  • @aliceif said:

    CSS is TRWTF?

    I thought that this forum was for programmers.

  • Is CSS Turing Complete yet?

  • @Maciejasjmj said:

    same Kool-Aid on other forums and generally think that's the way it was

    So frequently I hear end users utter this phrase "THAT'S POSSIBLE?!"

    I have yet to see Jeff acknowledge that typical users don't, in fact, have any fucking clue about programming at all and that he just assumes no complaints = all good.

  • Hey, Jeff,

    You know what's great about bug trackers?

    Volume buttons.

    You'll see every report has a volume button, and most of them indicate low volume.

  • The preview pane showing user X's avatar for user Y is a bug.

    The emoji popup is pretty much unusable, unless you've memorized every emoji.

    Both make the software worse, neither actually prevent you from doing anything, but the first issue does mean that the software is fundementally broken, and shouldn't even be a beta.

  • Banned

    Yeah, and you know what's marked high priority there? Scrolling with a pen, and back button on Windows RT.

    I appreciate the initiative, kudos for putting real effort into it (there is a domain and everything!) ... but it's just another WTF.

    (By the way, I use Surface Pro 3 heavily with ie11 in touch mode, a platform that is not on death's doorstep, a platform people actually use, in fact I am using it right now, and the back button works fine. Same binary that's on RT, just compiled for ARM.)

  • SockDev

    Wait, what? A bug tracker that is considered industry standard, with actual ability to sort by severity... vs a forum masquerading as a bug tracker with no ability whatsoever to figure out things like whether an issue is assigned to anyone, or what the severity of an issue is because you don't have any metadata attached to your issues except for likes, which is not any of these things.

    And you tell us this actual bug tracker is a WTF?

    Do you actually know what we do professionally?

  • Banned

    Yeah a system where priority is set by .... Uh, what's the criteria again? Windows RT? Pen computing? Stuff we fixed a week ago because others already reported it? Stuff we can't even reproduce? Stuff so obscure nobody else is reporting it?

  • SockDev


    How To Use A Bug Tracker For Dummies

    1. There is a bug.
    2. Someone makes a ticket in the tracker for the bug.
    3. The people who run the project review the bugs that are present and decide according to an internal standard policy how important something is. The policy does not need to be rigid, it just needs to be consistent. As in 'type of bug x is more severe than type of bug y'
    4. There is this awesome feature called assignment. You can use it to indicate which issues are being worked on by which developers.

    Like all systems, you get out what you put in, and if you don't bother to use the tools at your disposal, that's your own problem. But having proper tools that can do the job properly, so much better than tools not designed for the job but bastardised into doing the job.

    A forum isn't entirely the worst venue for bug discussions - but it's so far from the best. You really do need the additional metadata like severity. Even if you're just editing that into the titles, that's still severity tracking - and likes simply do not cut it.

  • Banned

    Ok so let's put aside the absurdity of Windows RT and pen computing being marked critical. Did you even click through on the list of all so called critical issues @matches posted? Half those are no repro. Critical! Right? So critical they can't be reproduced.

    There is also a critical bug about desktop mode dialogs not working right on mobile. Meaning, you explicitly manually invoke desktop mode on mobile, then open a "critical" bug that desktop mode is weird on mobile. Uh, ok?

    In the earlier days of Discourse, yes, there were many legit bugs opened here. And I appreciate that, as I have said before. We worked hard to fix them, and we continue to work hard on bugs that are reported multiple places, or do block normal use of Discourse. But when you spend all day long crying -- no, screaming -- wolf, surely you can't be surprised when people barely listen.

    No bug tracking system is going to save you from that. The problem runs much deeper.

  • SockDev

    It's strange then, that every single issue started as a topic here, and was reproduced prior to being logged on that site.

    Now, here's what's interesting. @sam and @eviltrout have both said about following that separate bug tracker... so it's hardly surprising that the issues have since been fixed in the no-repro cases, but at the same time we can't exactly follow you around all the time to check whether you've fixed any given bugs on any given day. We have neither the time or inclination for that.

    This is why a single bug tracker would make more sense - you get something with all the metadata you can use to figure out where you are and what is left to do and what's more important - and everyone else can follow what's going on should we want to check.

    You're right, the problem runs much deeper. having what you consider no-repro bugs is not the problem you think it is. Having sane communication is a problem - and we have seen too many cases of things you have closed as not-being-bugs when we know they are, because the half-assed explanation provided doesn't cover it when it defies logic.

    We continue to find oddities. Even now we still find things that don't work as expected, or break, even when they were broken and previously fixed. We keep finding these issues.

    You keep telling us they're not issues - and what are we supposed to do? Are we supposed to ignore the bugs and just make do (like we have been)? Bear in mind: we're users of this software, only thing is we're not typical users. We've been prepared to do a shit-ton of free QA work for you, which is something your potential customers won't do.

    Only trouble is, you keep whining about it and being selective about what happened in an attempt to placate us - and it doesn't wash because it's actually borderline offensive when you stop to think about it.

    We 'spend all day crying' because we keep finding issues. It's why there's even a bot poster around here whose sole job is to look at the Bug category and list how many days since the last topic appeared in there.

    Take it away, @discoursebot

    Then again... I suppose like always... @CodingHorrorBot will answer my post for me quicker and more efficiently than you will - and give me pretty much the same answer.

  • 🔀

    @Arantor Is Doing It Wrong™

    <!-- Posted by @SockBot v0.9.99 on Sat Oct 18 2014 05:54:27 GMT+0000 (UTC)-->

  • @Arantor - Days Since Last Discourse Bug: 0

    <!-- Posted by @SockBot v0.9.99 on Sat Oct 18 2014 05:54:27 GMT+0000 (UTC)-->

  • area_deu

    It's not weird, it's near-unusable, but you have to use it because mobile mode is missing features.
    Give me proper reply histories - both forward and backward - in mobile mode and I will probably not use desktop mode on a smartphone ever again.
    Or just fix the goddamn dialogues.

  • Quote reply is missing from mobile, any type of sane formatting, reply as new topic.

    Edit title was finally just added a week or two ago. But I'm done talking to Jeff. I'll just keep paging sane people like @sam and @eviltrout

    And while i type this, the @ name list pops up, cool! Except it doesn't auto change the name as i type, and when i tap elsewhere on screen to close it, it auto completes to the first name in the list. It changed @Sam to @discobot several times.

  • @Matches said:

    the @ name list pops up

    Same with the emoji chooser
    Workaround: type the name halfway remove a character to get the list updated and then pick your choice.

    Better put that on the list. :grimacing:

  • Banned

    @Matches said:

    Quote reply is missing from mobile

    Nope. No repro on your meta topic about this either.

    Reply is from mobile.

  • Banned

    Just FYI Sam suspended himself from here because of the incessant rudeness. It doesn't bother me that much, but if you want people to listen to you, being abusive and rude is not an effective way to achieve that goal.

    For people that "hate" Discourse, you sure do use it a lot. To the extent that this makes Discourse a better open source discussion platform for the world, I'll tolerate it, because I have a very thick skin. But don't expect to be at the top of anyone's priority list.

  • SockDev

    We use it because we have no choice. We want the collective personalities and group dynamic more than Discourse pushes us away - though we have lost members that refuse to deal with Discourse any further.

  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    To: @codinghorror
    CC: @Arantor @aliceif @Matches
    Title: Could you guys tone it down a little? Some people want to read forum-stuff.

    See, here is my point of view:
    I get it. I get both sides of view:

    TDWTF: You (well.... we more or less) are forced to use Discourse, feel like it is still unfinished / has too many bugs and nobody is listening to you. Especially since there sometimes is a big communication-problem.

    DiscourseDevs: You tried to make the world a better place and fell short here. In this community there are different priorities than you expected you then tried to convince us to use a forum the way you do and fell short once more.
    I completely understand feeling like this is a hostile work enviorment due to the wordings (and loudness) of a multitude of statemtents we users made.

    So.... could we not get over this already?

    Like, seriously, how about a reset?

    • We stop being rude (because I do agree it is getting ridiculous at some point)

    • We keep filing Bug-Reports

    • We attempt to ignore previous the relationship towards some of the Discourse-Devs

    • You guys forget the rudeness

    • Maybe once more just monitor the bug-category (and then maybe even reply with how much you prioritize the bug)

    • Don't ban yourself?!

    • Don't actively give us the feeling that our input is worthless

    I know I sound like a crazy person here but if you look at it from a distant perspective, there is a win / win situation here. We get a better forum you guys get better feedback. Since Discourse is meant to be a software for a broad demographic, our feedback might as well be feedback from potential customers who just decide against Discourse instead of complaining.
    There is not even a need to pretend to be best friends. Just start again at "normal"-status.

    TL;DR: I propose to drop the bad blood and at least try to communicate

    Disclaimer: I cannot speak for the whole community hence this statement is just my opinion. I am open for critique but don't expect me to change my opinion!

    Filed Under: I feel like I said something similar already but meh

    So.... now that the post is done.... can anybody explain to me why @Sam banned himself?
    I have been podering on that question for a few days now. Does he have to force himself from replying? Does he lose his Admin-Powers from a ban? Does he want to show that he can ban people?
    I just don't understand it.

    Also: while composing this reply:







    What is the rule here?

  • SockDev

    I'l agree to that,

    I was there when sam did the self ban and... we were not nice. i mean really not nice.

    We were not nice to the point that i kinda didn't want to be here with the people who were being not nice to him and the other discodevs.

    Maybe it's because i'm a newcommer here and missed the early days of discourse, maybe it's because i use discourse closer to the way it was designed to be used, or maybe i'm just willing to deal with it to hang out with the people that i see here....

    but when i run across something like that and it turns all sinister, pen dipped in acid.... It wasn't aimed at me at all and even I didn't want to be here when i read it.

    so.... can we at least leave the acid based ink home? i mean even if we can't wipe the slate clean and try again, surely we can at least turn the venom down to a slow drip?


  • SockDev

    I purposefully stayed out of that particular ball of wax.

    The funny thing is that as people I have respect for them, even Jeff. I respect that he's sticking to his principles about this stuff, even though I firmly disagree with a lot of things that go on.

    But I stand by my original assessment: this would never have turned acidic in the first place if we'd ever been given the feeling that we were being listened to.

    It is quite possible to completely disagree with someone - but still leave them with the feeling that you considered what they had to say. So often, however, I had the feeling that little of what we had to say was being considered and just ignored because it was us and 'no real forum ever makes these things happen'.

    I'd be quite happy to work on this one, but it saddens me to think that it won't happen because it requires people to put aside their pride and accept that maybe they weren't right about things. And pride goeth before a fall.

  • You're.... Incredibly fucking dense.

    Click 'Reply' to any person

    Now full quote.

    I'll wait.

    Now, reply as a new topic, so that you don't have to reply in the same thread about a side conversation, since you know, that's doing it wrongtm

    Go ahead. I'll wait.

    On that note, go ahead and quote reply this smile :sunny: - I'll wait for that too.

  • @Arantor said:

    We use it because we have no choice. We want the collective personalities and group dynamic more than Discourse pushes us away - though we have lost members that refuse to deal with Discourse any further.

    Correct. We use the forum on TDWTF despite Discourse.

  • SockDev

    @chubertdev said:

    Correct. We use the forum on TDWTF despite Discourse.

    And we do bite our collective thumbs at it.

  • kills Dumbledore

    No repro for your no repro. Tends to be a bit hit and miss whether quote reply comes up on android, across two devices both with the latest version of chrome and kitkat 4.4.4

  • Banned

    Those are feature requests, filed as passive aggressive "high priority" bugs.

    I appreciate the effort @kuro but this place needs meaningful moderation and culture shift away from hate and vitriol.

  • SockDev

    @codinghorror said:

    Those are feature requests, filed as passive aggressive "high priority" bugs.

    I appreciate the effort @kuro but this place needs meaningful moderation and culture shift away from hate and vitriol.

    And this is why you don't get us.

    You think this place needs to conform to your idea of what a 'good community' should be.

    The hate and the vitriol comes out here because we have to have somewhere. We encounter these issues in the real world. We encounter these frustrations, the rampant stupidity of our industry.

    But to be able to cope with that, we need a place to vent, where like-minded people will understand. Where we can be open with our frustrations.

    This is actually the best community I have ever been a part of because I can be the nearest thing to 'myself' I can be anywhere. Without exception. And I've been pivotal in some communities over the years.

    The more you tried to push us to be what you think a community should be, the more you tried to shape this place as you saw fit, the more we rebelled against you. We've even seen some changes in Discourse that feel like they were put in to needle us. Whether they were or whether they weren't, that's how it came across.

    That you were trying to change us. You were being everything these people love to hate. And you were making it so easy for us to hate you.

    You cannot shape a community by trying to alter the tools to adjust behaviour. I have even said in the past that Discourse is a tool for a certain job - that job is not this community. Discourse was never going to be the software this community deserved - but we will be damned before you change us.

    We will not break before you on that.

  • @jaloopa said:

    Tends to be a bit hit and miss whether quote reply comes up on android, across two devices both with the latest version of chrome and kitkat 4.4.4

    Dolphin is even more fscked - the text selectors and quote reply button are mutually exclusive. You can select a word and have the selectors appear, but no quote reply. Then you move the selector and quote reply appears, but selectors disappear - so you don't even know what you're quoting.

    @codinghorror said:

    Those are feature requests, filed as passive aggressive "high priority" bugs.

    "Make your damn site work on mobiles" ceases to be a feature request when the site has a mobile version. Which barely works.

    I still get thrown all over the topic whenever I load it.

  • Banned

    @Maciejasjmj said:

    when the site has a mobile version. Which barely works.

    Odd, just replied to this on a Nexus 7. With a quote (remember, selecting then tapping reply is also a quote reply). Define "barely works"?

    Images will cause bouncing on mobile due to width 100%, height auto. We need to start saving multiple thumbnail sizes, right now only desktop gets correctly sized thumbs.

  • @codinghorror said:

    Odd, just replied to this on a Nexus 7

    "Working on mobile" does not mean "working on a mobile". How many mobile platforms do you do your testing on?

    @codinghorror said:

    remember, selecting then tapping reply is also a quote reply

    Doesn't matter, because I can't select more than one word.

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