Discourse DMZ
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he should have gone with the xss badge.
He didn't XSS anything. CSS badge is for site breaking, XSS is for literally doing XSS. Even though the XSS rates higher than the CSS, there are scenarios where the CSS badge would be given for exploits worse than XSS.
Don't blame the player, blame the game.
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0.00001. why no fix?!
Damn. Doesn't work with decimals.BUG: Dicsourse can't tell my decimal value is a number
0000000000002. BUG: This wasn't even a valid number (0000000000000002.)
1.1. seriously though.
oh crap i broke the whole thing how do i get out of list indentation now....?- oh, double line return, but now why is this #2 instead of #1 of a new list, or #3??
well then.
2. i just dont even... why didn't THIS one autocorrect?WHY. JUST WHY.
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I was hoping that no one noticed that, haha.
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It's okay, your comment still got a genuine laugh from me, I was greatly amused.
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This fucking bug. It reminded me of The Dirty Dozen, where they all get pissed off because they have to shave with cold water.
James Coburn plays Jeff Atwood in The Dirty Discourse.
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MYSTERY SOLVED!
Good job gents, champagne all around for finding the root cause of the issue.
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I'm not saying there aren't bugs, there are. It's just the whole chicken little "oh my god the sky is falling" is not something we hear from LITERALLY ANYONE ELSE.
As I said before: you only can get a qualified feedback from people who can tell it's a bug if they experience one.But hey, what else should I expect from a community that's entirely based on making fun of other people's code?
You seem to get rather thin-skinned. To be a pedantic dickweed first: this community is not making fun of your code. This community is making fun of how much bugs a "version 1.0" still has and of the reaction of some of the team when presented with what this community has found when using Discourse.This community consists to a large part of software developers. This community is talking professional-to-professional.
If Discourse would be the hobby project of someone in college, the criticism would be much softer. But Discourse has been developed by people who consider themselves to be professionals (at least that is my perception).
And a professional can expect from a professional a professional reaction when shown where he/she/it has made a mistake.
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Right; the really discouraging part is you, the developer of the product are the one serving up this shit and saying, "isn't this delicious!" The developer should have a much stronger sense of quality than the user. You don't. You're apparently perfectly ok with this shit sandwich.
And in any case, if you honestly believe this is an acceptable level of quality, we're right back to: you are not very good at software development. Sorry but it's true.
Seconded.
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On an unrelated note, does anybody know why the default behavior for 'Create Topic' is not to create a topic in the category you're in, but rather you have to select the full topic tree?
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And a professional can expect from a professional a professional reaction when shown where he/she/it has made a mistake.
Which is not what we have given. This is where we let off steam so as to not say things like we do here to co-workers, clients, etc. as it would be unprofessional. On the other hand having an honest yelling at can be better than the cleaned up professional feedback.
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On an unrelated note, does anybody know why the default behavior for 'Create Topic' is not to create a topic in the category you're in, but rather you have to select the full topic tree?
That's so you can see the little wiggle when you invariably forget to select a category. They spent a lot of time on that little wiggling error message, you gotta appreciate it.
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No repro here:
Unless I'm doing it wrong, or not following what issue you're having.
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Cool, I'll just put your special snowflake needs above everyone else's, because that would make me a Good Software Developer(tm).
Logical fallacy. But as you are tired of replying, so am I. And will leave figuring out where you are wrong in that post to you as an exercise.
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Hmm, that suggests it's more likely to be a bug. I didn't notice anything different about how I was starting the create topic from normal. I'll try to pay attention for repro steps.
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>faoileag said:
Disagree, at least somewhat. Yes, we've ranted and blown off steam and insulted CDCK. But we've also filed professional bug reports with expected behavior, actual behavior, steps to repro, etc. Sometimes these have received the expected professional reaction (particularly when they relate to security), but I think we can all agree that the response has often been far from professional.
And a professional can expect from a professional a professional reaction when shown where he/she/it has made a mistake.Which is not what we have given. This is where we let off steam so as to not say things like we do here to co-workers, clients, etc. as it would be unprofessional. On the other hand having an honest yelling at can be better than the cleaned up professional feedback.
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Which is not what we have given. This is where we let off steam so as to not say things like we do here to co-workers, clients, etc. as it would be unprofessional. On the other hand having an honest yelling at can be better than the cleaned up professional feedback.
We have calmed down when the devs actually engaged, however. We're much more civil towards them on Meta.d than they are towards us (mostly due to passive aggressive post deletion).
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I tried both the button and the keyboard shortcut, and both gave me the category filled in. The only time I don't get the category pre-filled is when I'm on the general topic lists..
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Oh yeah we are better on meta.d and feel that (at least some of them) aren't; I was just pointing out that it seemed like @faoileag was claiming we were being professional to @eviltrout here was not accurate.
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Amazing. We have both where I am. I just caught a regression yesterday from automated testing. Sadly, our human testers find a lot more.
Who writes the automated tests? In most cases, it's the same software developer that's developing the code under test.The example I usually use is that of the leap year: say, you don't know about the "if divisible by 100" exception. Then you code your isLeapYear() method in a way that 2100 is a leap year. And since you write the tests, the tests will pass.
Your colleague at the next table, the human tester, might have a different opinion.
I would rather live without automated tests than without a human tester.
Filed under: sadly, I usually have neither.
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@faoileag was claiming we were being professional to @eviltrout here was not accurate.
I tried.
Then Jeff pissed me off. Faced with the choice between blowing off steam here vs at meta.d, I remained courteous on meta.d.
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Which is not what we have given. This is where we let off steam so as to not say things like we do here to co-workers, clients, etc. as it would be unprofessional. On the other hand having an honest yelling at can be better than the cleaned up professional feedback.
Back in the day we started out being professional, then Jeff decided to ignore what we were saying - and as time went on, we got less and less courteous because nothing else worked.
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I was just pointing out that it seemed like @faoileag was claiming we were being professional to @eviltrout here was not accurate.
Disagree (even if that means I'm agreeing with me). We are just responding to him. He is defending Discourse, we are telling him where he is wrong.Actually, up until his last post, it was just a professional discussion, although he did get a lot of flak. But that comes with the job. And with the attitude.
Defending one's buggy project is one thing. Defending a buggy project by denying bugs or playing them down will get a far more fierce response. Because then the message is "I don't take you seriously, I don't even hear you, la,la,la,la,la".
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Sorry, should have been more clear. I wasn't saying that the flak was unwarranted, just that giving flak is normally considered unprofessional in communicating with someone (which would be why I'd normally not qualify anything that is said here as professional) and thus your comment was being detracted by your insistence that it was professional griping vs. people that know what they are talking about griping in an yelly way.
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I wasn't saying that the flak was unwarranted, just that giving flak is normally considered unprofessional in communicating with someone
Is it? I'd say it depends on my professional experience and on the severity of the issue.If I fuck up royally because I wasn't careful when I should have been and knew enough at the time that I should have been, then I must accept even a severe dressing down.
Been there, done that, let the other guy vent his anger. Because he had to repair the damage.
Again: the folks over at Discourse consider themselves professional software developers. If then the software they develop is buggy out of carelessness, or if bugs show up that an experienced developer should have noticed himself before releasing the software, then the flak will get severe. And I expect the other person to take it. And learn from the experience.
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If I fuck up royally because I wasn't careful when I should have been and knew enough at the time that I should have been, then I must accept even a severe dressing down.
Where have you worked? I wish people would actually do that, but everywhere I've been it's been all tip toeing around any sort of issue so as to not offend someone (though I have gotten it from clients).
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Again: the folks over at Discourse consider themselves professional software developers
Ah … no.
<a @twatwood considers himself better than professional software developers. I'm seeing little evidence that his "team" are any different.
Instead of "you're the only lot who are finding bugs, everyone else is OK with it as it stands", they should be asking why we're the only ones finding bugs, and how to get us properly on board.
Filed under: it will take money. Money and fast cars. Money and fast cars and blowjobs and coke
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Some of y'all are a bunch of toxic dickbags. When someone tells you they know they're not perfect and are trying to improve, you scream back at them "YOUR BEST IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH!"
I have not followed your communication with Discourse that closely (outside of bugs on meta), but I wonder what could have possibly happened to breed that kind of negativity. I certainly don't think it's healthy to get that worked up over a piece of software you are using.
You probably noticed we're a pretty small team. Prioritizing stuff is always hard. We might have worked on something that you didn't think was necessary like the colours on the topic list while your pet bug was ignored or perhaps discounted. Sorry about that! I meant it when I said we can't be everything to everyone.
Sometimes working on open source software means a dozen new emails appearing overnight, and the frustration of knowing you can only address one that day.
I'm sure you think objectively, above any possible opinion, that some particular issue of yours is more important that what we worked on.. and maybe you're right! But believe it or not we are all working hard on this. If we're making mistakes please tell us and we'll try to do better in the future.
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Now the question is, can you put those styles into the mobile stylesheet as well?
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Some of y'all are a bunch of toxic dickbags. When someone tells you they know they're not perfect and are trying to improve, you scream back at them "YOUR BEST IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH!"
The problem is you're demonstrably not doing your best right now, that was the point I was trying to make. In the run-up to a major version release, "best" is stopping new feature development and fixing all the known bugs. You guys didn't do that at all.
You're doing eviltrout's version of "your best", possibly Jeff Atwood's version of "your best", but that doesn't seem to mesh very well with everybody else's version.
I have not followed your communication with Discourse that closely (outside of bugs on meta), but I wonder what could have possibly happened to breed that kind of negativity.
Seriously? You actually deal with Atwood on a regular basis, right? I don't even know how to respond to this.
We might have worked on something that you didn't think was necessary like the colours on the topic list while your pet bug was ignored or perhaps discounted.
There are bugs and there are new features. You always fix the bugs before adding new features. Always.
And in the bugs, there are regressions and there are new bugs. You always fix the regressions before you fix the new bugs. Always.
Sometimes working on open source software means a dozen new emails appearing overnight, and the frustration of knowing you can only address one that day.
I think Jeff Atwood thinks working on open source software means, "taking people's contributions, then making money off them while not paying them or even taking their opinions seriously."
Discourse is a commercial product. The only reason you're on GitHub is so you can market to gullible idiots (like the ones at BoingBoing), and get free labor from other gullible idiots (like Ben L.)
If we're making mistakes please tell us and we'll try to do better in the future.
We've told you a billion times, even politely on your own forum. And nothing's ever changed. Why would we believe it'd change now? If I hit my head against a wall, and it hurts, I'm not going to hit it against the wall a second time.
Incidentally, "hitting my head against a wall" is actually significantly less painful than trying to convince Jeff Atwood a bug is actually a bug.
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The problem is you're demonstrably not doing your best right now,
Okay... If you redefine "doing one's best" as "stopping new feature development and fixing all the known bugs" I guess I didn't demonstrably do that!
Sorry I gotta pause for a second. I'm not used to the mental gymnastics required to intepret a straw man that big. I'll reply more later.
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I have not followed your communication with Discourse that closely (outside of bugs on meta), but I wonder what could have possibly happened to breed that kind of negativity. I certainly don't think it's healthy to get that worked up over a piece of software you are using.
How about comments like this:
Discourse really is rainbows
or this:
Your mom is a barrier to reading.
Or Jeff's constant insistence that because some other company (such as Google) is doing something wrong, following in their footsteps is ok?
Or Jeff's insistence that Discourse sucks balls on Android after his experience on a single Android device, despite conflicting testimony from multiple users here on multiple Android devices?
Or the way Jeff tried to change how our community works by constantly moving posts and being a heavy-handed mod, when that isn't what this community wants?
Or the way that Sam and Jeff told us we were stupid for wanting paging, even as a user option?
Or the way that Jeff told us that our forum's time honored nested quoting is a "war crime"?
I could probably dig up more, but I'd rather not.
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stopping new feature development
The only new features we've seen lately are cosmetic shit that makes Discourse less usable, or has no impact at all. What real features are you guys actually developing?
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Sorry I gotta pause for a second. I'm not used to the mental gymnastics required to intepret a straw man that big. I'll reply more later.
I don't even know what you're talking about here.
Being a good software developer, aka "doing your best" as a software developer means you follow best practices. Following best practices means you institute a feature-freeze and fix bugs before a major release. I doubt you'll find anybody in the industry who disagrees with that. Even open source developers do that, at least all the open source projects I've seen.
You guys didn't do that. There's no strawmen or other fallacies involved here.
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What real features are you guys actually developing?
The search improvements. </devil's advocate>
Of course, as I've mentioned elsewhere, the updates to it really aren't good enough, and somewhere else, they should've already had search "done", especially well before "V1".
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The search improvements. </devil's advocate>
That would be a bug fix.
Of course, as I've mentioned elsewhere, the updates to it really aren't good enough, and somewhere else, they should've already had search "done", especially well before "V1".
Agreed.
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In our eyes, yes. In theirs? Considering they shipped with what they had? I don't think they ever considered the old search "broken".
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Serious question, what do you think "Doing your best" means?
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Why don't you address the one point I brought up in the post you replied to, and then I can feed you some others.
But yes, following software development best practices is definitely a big part of that. That means: fixing regressions before bugs, fixing bugs before adding new features, freezing new features to fix all/most known bugs before release.
You guys aren't doing that. Why not?
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Dude, stop.
There's no way that's gonna work.There's a strange social dynamics going on here. Too much bad blood on personal level, that has little to do with the software itself.
It seems TDWTF / Discourse team luv story is just not meant to be. It's more like a Shakespearean tragedy, only with less deaths and more petty insults and passive-aggressive jibes.
Just let it be.
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Jeff is pretty much the reason why you guys get any shit here above and beyond typical ribbing. Guilty by association type stuff since you're not here enough to have an actual presence.
For me, it's the fact that I spend 5-10 minutes writing up a bug report, working out repro steps, fighting discourse to format it correctly, and then Jeff deletes the bug post, doesn't PM me why, and subsequently deletes any follow up posts when I complain about it.
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Some of y'all are a bunch of toxic dickbags. When someone tells you they know they're not perfect and are trying to improve, you scream back at them "YOUR BEST IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH!"
I'm pretty sure that's the definition next to a few of them if you looked it up in the dicktionary.
Blakeyrat: n, toxic dickbag
Anyway, you just have to get used to some of the people here to know how to read their crap, just like you have to get used to Jeff to realize you must ignore 99% of what he says because he was just trolling you.
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Of course, that definition isn't implying that what has been said here by those individuals was wrong.
Just that you have to skim past and ignore some ALL CAPS CURSING or you'll get butthurt, because even when some people here are ok with things there is a lot of cursing and ranting involved.
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Okay, so you define doing one's best means "following software development best practices," or perhaps more specifically "not working on what I personally believe you should work on."
To me, and the rest of the world probably, doing one's best refers to the effort involved. I don't presume to know everything. My career is a learning experience and I am trying hard to improve and learn as I go along.
That's what I meant by my post, kind sir dickbag.
In fact, to elaborate since you probably did some brain damage by hitting your head against that wall, the WHOLE point was that I'm not denying we have made mistakes about prioritizing work and we're trying to be better going forward.
BTW, for personal growth I suggest googling "doing your best" and "straw man."
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If you really want to piss blakey off, like his posts. He doesn't like getting the nice post badges.
or maybe you meant
https://www.google.com/search?q=doing your best straw man&rct=j#q="doing+your+best"+"straw+man"
?
Discosearch suggests:
No sight of a straw man, but it's probably there. Obviously @eviltrout never mentioned it though.
Or maybe blakeyrat never suggested do your best / straw man at all, since that link actually takes me to @eviltrout post.
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If you really want to piss blakey off, like his posts. He doesn't like getting the nice post badges.
That's because he doesn't understand that getting a nice post badge doesn't necessarily mean he himself is nice.
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Okay, so you define doing one's best means "following software development best practices," or perhaps more specifically "not working on what I personally believe you should work on."
Correct; I am the only person in the universe who believes software developers should fix bugs before adding new features. Also sarcasm does not exist.
To me, and the rest of the world probably, doing one's best refers to the effort involved.
Don't you think part of that effort might include... hm... learning about your field?
If you consider your career a learning experience, you gotta get away from Atwood post-haste. Because you're loading your brain up with his bullshit, man. That ain't good.
the WHOLE point was that I'm not denying we have made mistakes about prioritizing work and we're trying to be better going forward.
Yeah, but are you speaking for Atwood when you say that? Unless Atwood's bought into this, it's impossible for Discourse to turn around.
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Yeah, but are you speaking for Atwood when you say that? Unless Atwood's bought into this, it's impossible for Discourse to turn around.
I think this is especially telling in the way that some recent design decisions have been knee-jerk reactions on Jeff's part. Like the change to the "new" indicator: So what if he's overwhelmed with a bunch of new flags after being away from the forum for four months? There's a user preference to adjust the sensitivity of the new flags, so use it!
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Well moreover, I can guarantee, guarantee, that Atwood doesn't agree that the Discourse developers have "made mistakes about prioritizing work." I can 100% guarantee it.
I don't know who eviltrout is speaking for, and without knowing that it's kind of hard to take any promises made seriously.
If the Discourse development team consisted of Sam and riking and eviltrout and Ben L., then I'm guessing we'd be using a much better project right now. Because none of those guys are the real problem.
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Good news! I've taken your advice and started to research best practices. I found a book on it and it says I need some kind of Enterprise Java Bean.
I have no idea what that means. Can you point me in the right direction? Where can I buy a can of Java Beans?
P.S. I also need to know what JNDI means if you know that.
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Hilarious.
