Is Bootstrap a programming language?



  • http://phillytrib.com/news/state-and-region/first-grader-creates-mobile-app-video-game.html

    Ignoring the actual point of the story (fuck first graders), is Bootstrap sufficiently different than what came before to be considered a programming language? I'm kind of confused about the terminology here. I thought it was just a JavaScript framework.


  • :belt_onion:

    @blakeyrat said:

    I'm kind of confused about the terminology here. I thought it was just a JavaScript framework.

    I thought it was a CSS framework with some non obligatory JS tidbits.

    By thought, I mean I use the damned thing.



  • @Onyx said:

    I thought it was a CSS framework with some non obligatory JS tidbits.

    This. Unless someone else made a Bootstrap programming language that has nothing to do with Bootstrap.



  • ... what is a "CSS Framework"? I know what those words mean individually, but together I have no idea.



  • Just a bunch of CSS styles/classes with some pre-attached JavaScript/JQuery stuff to give you nice-looking buttons, fields, forms, windows, etc. It's actually pretty easy to use.



  • "The exact incarnation of Bootstrap that Ball used was a standards-based curriculum and programming environment supported by the Foundation for the Advancement of Technology in Education. This specific program teaches students to program their own videogames and applications using purely algebraic and geometric concepts."

    FATE Bootstrap - Philadelphia, PA – 02:41
    — Kelly Ohlert

    Something's broken with the timed links, so at 1:54 there's some code. Seems Lisp-ish?


  • :belt_onion:

    I mostly use it for the grid system myself. Don't know about anyone else, but I'm damned sick of fucking around with positioning and floating bullshit.



  • They should hire you to write their homepage, but goddamned. You could browse the site for an hour and not figure out what the hell it actually is.


  • mod

    Found this: http://www.bootstrapworld.org/ Apparently it is a new programming language they are using to teach kids about programming. Not a whole lot of information, but this seems to indicate it is actually a programming language, not just the teaching program:

    Unlike Python, Scratch or Javascript, functions and variables behave exactly the same way in Bootstrap that they do in your child's math book. Bootstrap focuses on order of operations, the Cartesian plane, function composition and definition, solving word problems and more.



  • Python works just like my math book in high school. Man, that was one screwed up course.



  • Ok I get the confusion. They are referring to this Bootstrap: http://www.bootstrapworld.org/

    The Bootstrap web framework is completely different.

    Here's the documentation: http://www.wescheme.org/doc/wescheme.html

    Stuff made in it "compiles" to JavaScript/DOM so it can be run in a browser by just having it visit a URL. Given this, I'm not sure what's so unique about this girl... it seems like everybody who goes through the courses will have "completed a mobile game".


  • :belt_onion:

    Not to be confused with bootstrapping

    Nor actual boot straps

    http://www.toofastonline.com/images/Product/large/17770.jpg

    Do you think we need some new words around here?


  • mod

    Yeah, when I first browsed their site, I found descriptions of their courses. Bootstrap:1 involves creating a game with three characters, so this girl is only unique because she got singled out for the article. Her classmates are probably jealous.



  • Now that that's solved, can we talk about how Java and JavaScript are the same thing?



  • Let's talk about how all of Google's technologies have names that are impossible to Google.



  • @abarker said:

    Bootstrap:1 involves creating a game with three characters, so this girl is only unique because she got singled out for the article. Her classmates are probably jealous.

    "Soon, officials from digital game creators EA Sports, Activision and many others may beat a path to the doors of the Harambee Institute of Science and Technology Charter School, especially if the school continues to turn our prodigies like first-grader Zora Ball."

    Yeah, that kid who has been led through a course involving a relatively useless programming language? The new John Carmack, definitely.

    Also, how the fuck do you teach a seven year old all the concepts in algebra necessary to actually comprehend this language in a year?



  • Literally script kiddies.



  • I imagine addition, subtraction is pretty straight forward. Forward thinkers might also learn about multiplication, and possibly division.



  • I was curious about the language. No mention anywhere on the site. Strange?

    But they did mention they are using this editor:

    "Scheme"?
    Hmm... From one of the examples:

    (text "Hello" 24 "olive")
    (text "Goodbye" 36 "indigo")
    
    
    (overlay (rectangle 30 60 "solid" "orange")
             (ellipse 60 30 "solid" "purple"))
    
    
    
    (overlay (ellipse 10 10 "solid" "red")
             (ellipse 20 20 "solid" "black")
             (ellipse 30 30 "solid" "red")
             (ellipse 40 40 "solid" "black")
             (ellipse 50 50 "solid" "red")
             (ellipse 60 60 "solid" "black"))
    

    Oh, so it's one of those lisp-wannabe academic jerkof languages. Good thing they are preparing those kids for the real world, huh...





  • Forget the fancy terminology. Bootstrap is not a language nor a framework nor much of anything else. Bootstrap is a pre-defined CSS file. ONE FILE. Absolutely nothing more (but very very useful). Grab any free website template off the internet and in the archive you will find a file named something like "style.css". This file defines what the website LOOKS like... it contains the styling information. If you wanted to make your own website from scratch, you would have to create "style.css" entirely yourself from scratch...... In case you don't know what CSS is, it's a system created by idiots to complicate the entire universe. Along comes Bootstrap.css, with lots of predefined styles, making web design incredibly easy. So Bootstrap really isn't much, but it is worth its weight in gold.



  • Timely response.



  • I just discovered the site a few minutes ago. I see the thread is months old but I wanted to put something out there for anyone who chances into the convo in the future. :)


  • mod

    @Joseph_Cardwell_Fost said:

    In case you don't know what CSS is, it's a system created by idiots to complicate the entire universe. Along comes Bootstrap.css, with lots of predefined styles, making web design incredibly easy. So Bootstrap really isn't much, but it is worth its weight in gold.

    First off, you do realize that the word "bootstrap" is used in many different contexts, right? Did you read any of the other posts in this topic about what what the rest of us found in regards to bootstrap in this particular context? Because your post has nothing to do with this topic. Maybe you should read the article linked in the OP, or go visit http://www.bootstrapworld.org/ to read up on the program that was discussed in the article. We already discussed, and dismissed, the CSS bootstrap.

    Second, taken on its own, your post is idiotic. First you bash CSS, then you say that bootstrap.css - a CSS file - is worth its weight in gold. So which is it? Either CSS is crap, or it isn't. Here's a tip: it isn't. CSS is a hell of a lot better than the old method of having to individually style every single HTML element.

    Here's what I think: you have no idea in Belgium how to use CSS, so you rely on pre-built files like bootstrap.css to do the work for you. How about you get your head out of your ass and shut up. Go learn how to use CSS before you come around trying to school a forum full of IT professionals.



  • (Twitter) Bootstrap is to CSS as LaTeX is to TeX: whereas 'raw' TeX or CSS are considered clunky and difficult to use, albeit for different reasons, Bootstrap and LaTeX provide an "authors' level interface" to their respective underlying platforms that makes 90% of their power and expressiveness available in an elegant way.



  • @abarker said:

    First you bash CSS, then you say that bootstrap.css - a CSS file - is worth its weight in gold. So which is it?

    It saves you from writing CSS. Think of Bootstrap like of an unsung hero that takes the bullet for you.

    I prefer my classes semantic, so I don't really like Bootstrap-driven development, but it's nice for basic layouting - especially since "semantic Web" has dumped table layouts without providing any sensible replacements for them.

    And don't fucking ever, ever, ever, tell me about float : left. Or vertical-align : middle, which seems to never fucking do what I want it to do, and most of the time do nothing at all.

    So Bootstrap is nice when you're bootstrapping yourself with it - making the basic somewhat-tabular form layout, which is pretty damn hard to achieve with divs.

    @abarker said:

    CSS is a hell of a lot better than the old method of having to individually style every single HTML element.

    It is, however, pretty retarded at times. Like when you have to write

    [code]
    .summaryDialog li.active.active.active {
    [/code]

    for one class to override a set of two classes. Maybe there's a better way, but I haven't found it yet.



  • @tarunik said:

    (Twitter) Bootstrap is to CSS as LaTeX is to TeX: whereas 'raw' TeX or CSS are considered clunky and difficult to use, albeit for different reasons, Bootstrap and LaTeX provide an "authors' level interface" to their respective underlying platforms that makes 90% of their power and expressiveness available in an elegant way.

    And by letting "authors" take the easy way out, Knuth was clearly Doing It Wrong(tm)


    Cheap shot, taken.

    There's sort of an anti-allegory meta-thing going on here.


  • mod

    You're still talking about the wrong bootstrap. Again, I ask you to look here and here.



  • @abarker said:

    You're still talking about the wrong bootstrap.

    We'll talk about any goddamned bootstrap we want to. Like @Luhmann, I prefer mine tied firmly.


  • mod

    @Maciejasjmj said:

    And don't fucking ever, ever, ever, tell me about float : left. Or vertical-align : middle, which seems to never fucking do what I want it to do, and most of the time do nothing at all.

    Never had any issues with float: left;, when placed on a block element (the only place it's really supposed to work). And isn't vertical-align: middle; for aligning content inside of a block element (e.g., text inside a fixed height div)?

    @Maciejasjmj said:

    It is, however, pretty retarded at times. Like when you have to write

    .summaryDialog li.active.active.active {

    for one class to override a set of two classes. Maybe there's a better way, but I haven't found it yet.

    I have never run across a scenario like that. Ever. But, it sounds like a situation where a named div could be useful to help narrow the scope.


  • Grade A Premium Asshole

    @boomzilla said:

    We'll talk about any goddamned bootstrap we want to. Like @Luhmann, I prefer mine tied firmly on a girl with a huge rack.

    FTFM



  • @abarker said:

    You're still talking about the wrong bootstrap.

    I don't care about $obscure-game-'creation kit'-that-nobody-in-their-right-mind-will-ever-use, OK? Those...things are a pox and curse on society!


  • mod

    Well, that was what this topic was discussing.


  • Grade A Premium Asshole

    @tarunik said:

    I don't care about $obscure-game-'creation kit'-that-nobody-in-their-right-mind-will-ever-use, OK? Those...things are a pox and curse on society!

    Yeah! It would be a damned shame if there were something simple and easy to use to get kids excited about the possibilities of what computers can do! They should all just fucking learn Assembly if they want to learn something valuable! Kids these days! And GET OFF MY LAWN!!


  • BINNED

    Yeah, how dare you go off topic. This is TDWTF, we stick religiously to civilised, on topic, non :trollface: discourse here



  • @Intercourse said:

    Yeah! It would be a damned shame if there were something simple and easy to use to get kids excited about the possibilities of what computers can do! They should all just fucking learn Assembly if they want to learn something valuable! Kids these days! And GET OFF MY LAWN!!

    It's more that they do it in the worst way possible. I'd rather see them learn Python and a set of bindings to a reasonable game engine than whatever horrid cocktail of nightmares such a kit certainly has dreamed up.



  • @tarunik said:

    I'd rather see them learn Python and a set of bindings to a reasonable game engine than whatever horrid cocktail of nightmares such a kit certainly has dreamed up.

    Still better than having them try to make stuff on a web page do what they want it to with CSS. ALL HAIL BOOTSTRAP<whichever one you prefer>.


  • mod

    @Intercourse said:

    I don't care about $obscure-game-'creation kit'-that-nobody-in-their-right-mind-will-ever-use, OK? Those...things are a pox and curse on society!

    This was one of the rare examples of a topic that didn't derail. And now it has been spoiled. Spoiled I tell you!!


  • BINNED

    yeah, but is Bootstrap compatible with UAC? And should gays be allowed to program in it on their wedding day? Gives you paws for thought don't it?



  • @abarker said:

    But, it sounds like a situation where a named div could be useful to help narrow the scope.

    Except when you can't put an ID on it, because it's in your partial view (which is yet another screwup - when you're building reusable controls, you basically are forbidden to use IDs, so you either do with classes or data- attributes). But data- selectors have the same specificity as class selectors, so you're fucked.

    @abarker said:

    Never had any issues with float: left;, when placed on a block element (the only place it's really supposed to work).

    Dunno; I'm not a CSS wizard, but floating anything requires a lot of trial and error on my part.

    @abarker said:

    And isn't vertical-align: middle; for aligning content inside of a block element (e.g., text inside a fixed height div)?

    Supposedly... and yet, even in this scenario, it doesn't seem to work anyway. I have yet to find a way for it to do anything more than shift my layout a pixel or two.

    I suck with CSS, but it sucks too.


  • Grade A Premium Asshole

    @tarunik said:

    It's more that they do it in the worst way possible. I'd rather see them learn Python and a set of bindings to a reasonable game engine than whatever horrid cocktail of nightmares such a kit certainly has dreamed up.

    I would also, but the thing is...you are saying that as a person who has already shown a great interest in technology and has a base to your learning. Just getting started in programming is a lot like trying to drink from a firehose. It is a fucking lot to take in.

    Those who have a genuine interest will go on to bigger and better things. Think about BASIC. It was shit. But a lot of people got their start in BASIC and went on to learn other things. If you want to get kids involved, you have to dumb it down enough that they do not feel overwhelmed. Some will never show an interest, some will and move on to bigger things and excel, and some will stick with shitty tools and make shitty things. You will always have some shitty devs around, but it would be a tragedy if those who might have shown an aptitude never get in the door because they feel overwhelmed at an early age.

    It is all about age and skill appropriateness.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @Intercourse said:

    They should all just fucking learn Assembly if they want to learn something valuable!

    Don't hate on Assembly. In college I wrote a hangman program--with character graphics--whose executable was under 1800 bytes, including the word list and a subtle Obiwan error.

    Actually I think the source might've been that small and the executable even smaller, but it was 25 years ago.


  • Grade A Premium Asshole

    I would never hate on Assembly, but I would also never suggest it as a person's first language. The pioneers who came before us and only had Assembly or raw machine code to work with were mavens. I cannot even imagine only having that to work with.


  • mod

    @Maciejasjmj said:

    Except when you can't put an ID on it, because it's in your partial view (which is yet another screwup - when you're building reusable controls, you basically are forbidden to use IDs, so you either do with classes or data- attributes). But data- selectors have the same specificity as class selectors, so you're fucked.

    Really? In the ASP .NET framework, reusable HTML controls can certainly have IDs. No problems there, and the related CSS works just fine. The IDs might not work for accessing from your code due to non-unique IDs, but that doesn't stop the CSS.

    @Maciejasjmj said:

    @abarker said:
    Never had any issues with float: left;, when placed on a block element (the only place it's really supposed to work).

    Dunno; I'm not a CSS wizard, but floating anything requires a lot of trial and error on my part.


    Ok, I did some double checking, and float is not restricted to just block elements. Here's a fiddle showing proper use of float and the related attribute clear. http://jsfiddle.net/fyrn21vs/

    @Maciejasjmj said:

    Supposedly... and yet, even in this scenario, it doesn't seem to work anyway. I have yet to find a way for it to do anything more than shift my layout a pixel or two.

    Regarding vertical-align, it is used on in-line level and table-cell elements1. Here's a fiddle with examples of both uses. http://jsfiddle.net/5noy8c41/


  • area_deu

    How sad that this article is 404'd.



  • Seriously?



  • @Maciejasjmj said:

    when you have to write [snip] for one class to override a set of two classes

    That's generally what !important is for, when you need a general instance to override a more specific instance.



  • If you float something it becomes display:block as a consequence.



  • @abarker said:

    Really? In

    Can't quote reply on mobile (Discourse's Quote Reply button hides the selection thingies), so substitute the rest.

    In Web forms, you can have multiple same server-side ids, but in actual rendered HTML, they get mangled to include the context, so that they're actually unique. Sadly, that means you have no reliable way to query by ID in your client-side code.

    In MVC, you just write HTML. And valid HTML can't have two elements with the same ID anywhere on the page, so if you want to render your partial twice, you need to either do the mangling in JS, or use a class/data attribute and query with context.



  • @ChaosTheEternal said:

    That's ge

    Fucking Dicsource. Anyway, you shouldn't use !important in your own stylesheets - that's for the client to apply custom overrides. Besides, what if later you want to override that rule? AFAIK, there's no !importanter option.

    If they could just let you specify the specificity a la z-index, but noooo... That would be too confusing for those hipster kids with Macbooks doing "Web design".


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