Dont need no loops
-
No, it's not proxy Atwood bashing as such. I didn't follow his blog, I don't really care for Stack Overflow either. I'm bashing him for this fuckwittery and not acting like a sane human being in response to feedback to it.
-
And also to be honest, I don't think he's close enough to an attractive female to need an Internet White Knight to defend him. Yep, we're going to bash Jeff Atwood for his insane development practices, so what?
Notice I never defended Jeff Atwood.
The problem is you guys hate Jeff Atwood, however you can't do anything to him. The only way you can hurt him is through his product. So you attack Discourse instead. But the problem is, the more energy you spend tracking down bugs and trying to break the software, the less you have to invest in your own community. The bug reports are probably mildly annoying for Atwood, but in the long run, his project is getting better. While thread after thread here end up in meta quicksand. It's like one of those literary devices that feed on your hate, while you're getting weaker.
Sigh... I guess, if you're having fun disassembling Discourse and bashing Atwood, more power to you. The best I can hope for by risking your ire is I get at least some of you to think about the dynamics here before you go on derail the next thread.
-
I attack Discourse because it is fucked up.
I attack Jeff because he won't listen to what advice he could get, because he's convinced that he's right and will ignore anything useful out of spite.
The problem with your theory about us giving up disassembling the bullshit is that you seem to assume at some point it's going to get better. We keep finding new bugs. It feels like we encounter something new every single fucking day.
blakeyrat's Second Law is still in effect in these parts.
-
It feels like we encounter something new every single fucking day.
Be fair, there are days I've reported more than one bug...
-
I see no reason why this is mutually exclusive.
-
'Something ' implies the singlular to me...
-
'something new' only has to cover the first one. We encounter at least one new thing per day or thereabouts. The days we get multiple are just bonus days.
Perhaps I should edit my original post to clarify.
It feels like we encounter at least one new thing, but possibly several more new things, all of which are some level of broken, every single fucking day.
-
So you can obviously produce and consume content, follow topics and generally use the software to communicate with the community.
Yeah I could have done the same with a fucking FTP account and Notepad.exe. What's your point?
And if you just use simple tags and image links in the editor, which is 99% of the time, everything works pretty much OK.
No. If I type "3." in the editor at the beginning of the line, I get "1." on the screen.
How fucking generous is your version of "pretty much OK", man? Christ.
Sure, if you try something more complex, things start to break, but it's not like you've had a better experience on CS.
Yes. Complex. Like typing the number three followed by a period. Or like grabbing an image from a Discourse thread and dragging it into the reply box. Those were pretty fucking complex things. So complex.
So I guess what I just don't understand is, why so emo?
Right, I shouldn't care that the entire IT industry is turning into shit, exemplified by Discourse which is a perfect example of the process. I should just bend over and take it.
I would understand if there were major bugs with the software, like posts getting lost or corrupted. But no, most of the problems left are just... glitches. The kind of stuff that for me is between "meh" and "mildly annoying".
Look, if you're ok with shitty software, fine. I'm not. As it turns out, shockingly, we are different people.
Like, you've put up with not being able to drag the image over and "-5" turning to "-1", but strike-through getting stripped was the last straw?
Are you trolling us? Do you not understand that Discourse removing the strikeout completely changes the quotation to the opposite? You don't think that's an issue? That it could turn "Cartman82 is
agoodNazi!" into "Cartman82 is a Nazi!"? You really honestly don't think that's important at all?Be honest. If the software had nothing to do with Jeff Atwood, and you just happened to come here to read and post a few WTFs, would you even notice or care for that shit?
Yes. Who wouldn't be? You're the outlier here, Mr. South Park Name Plus Birth Year.
-
Every time he bitches about the toxic open source crap is an insult about something I have spent time on.
Yeah, but am I wrong?
-
Ok, but is raping someone with a barbed wire wrapped umbrella an appropriate reaction for getting a slightly worse gift than you expected?
That's how this website works, newbie idiot who is quite literally Hitler reincarnated.
-
Yeah, but am I wrong?
Not entirely. There are some of us who do open source who are ashamed of how shit it is and actually try to do something about it. Some of us care about what we work on and try not to inflict shit like developer UI on other people. But we're a rare breed that actually cares. I won't disagree that most of the people I work with are very content to embrace mediocrity.
-
The problem is you guys hate Jeff Atwood, however you can't do anything to him. The only way you can hurt him is through his product. So you attack Discourse instead.
You have it exactly backwards. I also had a moderately positive opinion of Atwood before being subjected to his bullshit software. Yes, I didn't like StackOverflow much, but I'd read a couple of his blog posts and they seemed to have been written by someone who knew what he was doing.
-
Yes. Who wouldn't be? You're the outlier here, Mr. South Park Name Plus Birth Year.
I would have you know Cartman is an old family forum nickname with a long and proud tradition, and 82 is the length of my penis, and not in mm too, thank you very much.
Other than that, nothing else to add. I guess I would expect you to rage at any software like it's the end of the world. I just don't see how you go from "there's a glitch in text editor" to "I'm leaving and never coming back".
> Ok, but is raping someone with a barbed wire wrapped umbrella an appropriate reaction for getting a slightly worse gift than you expected?
That's how this website works, newbie idiot who is quite literally Hitler reincarnated.
Oh. So where do I get my barbed wire wrapped umbrella?
-
The problem is you guys hate Jeff Atwood, however you can't do anything to him. The only way you can hurt him is through his product.
I don't "hate Jeff Atwood, thus I bash Discourse". I "hate Discourse, thus I bash Jeff Atwood".
The bug reports are probably mildly annoying for Atwood, but in the long run, his project is getting better.
Holy shit, you're saying we might actually be working to make the platform we're using to communicate more secure and useful? This cannot be!
Look, we're not actively trying to somehow make Discourse flop and send Jeff Atwood to live under a bridge, reminescing the days when he was a highly regarded developer with a huge reputation for creating a pretty decent Q&A platform.
We just don't like Discourse. And most people here don't like Jeff Atwood personally, either. Doesn't mean we can't work in our fucking interest.
and 82 is the length of my penis, and not in mm too
Mils it is, then.
-
Well the gemfile for the discourse project has rails right at the top as a dependency.
-
Look, we're not actively trying to somehow make Discourse flop and send Jeff Atwood to live under a bridge,
Not actively.
-
Oh. So where do I get my barbed wire wrapped umbrella?
Right up the chocolate starfish. You needed to ask?
-
I also had a moderately positive opinion of Atwood before being subjected to his bullshit software.
I see Scott Adams has been reading our thread: http://www.dilbert.com/strips/comic/2014-08-11
-
Not necessarily. Dilbert's just a documentary of modern office life, in strip form.
-
It does seem a little too apt, however. I wouldn't be surprised if someone wrote to him about this.
-
So much of what a forum is is not just about the content. The presentation is part of the content in so many places.
This is a general problem with written communication. We lose all of the normal things you get with face to face or even voice communication. Tone of voice, facial and body expressions. Removing the emphasis or emoji or whatever just removes some of the information being communicated.
-
My assertion is that, accidentally or not, the "broken" quoting leads to people making better quotes.
I was used to a certain amount of manual stuff from posting / replying in CS, especially since I used chrome. I've gotten used to restoring the markup in quotes, I suppose, because losing the markup bothers me.
-
So I guess what I just don't understand is, why so emo?
I would understand if there were major bugs with the software, like posts getting lost or corrupted. But no, most of the problems left are just... glitches. The kind of stuff that for me is between "meh" and "mildly annoying". Yet, it produces so much vitriol and drama, to the point of people threatening to leave. Like, you've put up with not being able to drag the image over and "-5" turning to "-1", but strike-through getting stripped was the last straw? Goodbye cruel world and fuck you alex?
+\
-
We were promised something better than CS. That wasn't what was delivered
I disagree with this.
-
No. If I type "3." in the editor at the beginning of the line, I get "1." on the screen.
How fucking generous is your version of "pretty much OK", man? Christ.
-
To be fair (to both sides), there is still a lot of fallout hate raining down from the initial switch, and how really, really poor the software was then.
-
And yet only the worst cracks have plastered over, and wallpaper put up while ignoring the structural weaknesses in the walls.
-
Oh, c'mon. It's nowhere near as bad as it used to be. It's still a jalopy, but it was scrap metal before.
-
Chrome starts at 100MB RAM, which is bad enough in my book. All I do is paste the link and to this article, and it balloons up to 250MB. Oh wait, 300MB now - only one tab open, but I have 5 instances of the exe running. No, I haven't chosen the image YET. So here:
Still at 300MB. Yay bloatcode.
To be fair (to both sides), there is still a lot of fallout hate raining down from the initial switch, and how really, really poor the software was then.
This is true. Some would argue that a cold cut from the old system and going only with the new system would settle that out over time (so the old system doesn't serve as a constant reminder.)
The other edge of that sword is that the new system would serve as the constant reminder...
-
Still at 300MB. Yay bloatcode.
Is any of that memory shared between processes? I can never remember how to read the task manager columns, but it might be the physical space currently allocated to the process including shared objects, which bloats up the space reported without actually mattering all that much while at the same time under-reporting other aspects such as paged out memory. That is, it's a true measure under some notion of “true” without giving you much of a handle on how stressed it actually makes the system.
-
I am currently seeing 350.8 MB private, 141.7 MB shared for my Pissforce tab. So that's 350 megabytes of non-shared, unique-to-this-tab memory. Chrome OSX, tab open for a couple of days.
A tab on Amazon has 8MB private.
Who's doing it wrong™, you say?
-
Just use Chrome's task manager (Shift + Esc)
-
Still catching up from the weekend.
@Maciejasjmj said:I don't "hate Jeff Atwood, thus I bash Discourse". I "hate Discourse, thus I bash Jeff Atwood".
This. +∞
Look, we're not actively trying to somehow make Discourse flop and send Jeff Atwood to live under a bridge, reminescing the days when he was a highly regarded developer with a huge reputation for creating a pretty decent Q&A platform.
No, but some of us wouldn't lose much sleep if that were to happen.
And most people here don't like Jeff Atwood personally
Only because of his attitude toward people who were trying to improve his product.
-
Only because of his attitude toward people who were trying to improve his product.
This.
All else is forgivable over time. But when you cut down even the people who are genuinely working to help you improve your project, and off the cuff no less (not like they screwed up 7 times while you're patiently working with them in a sane manner, and finally you went off the handle), you don't deserve to have anyone support you.
-
All that aside, Markdown's been around for like 5 years now, and it doesn't even have a spec. Not only is it hideously broken by-design, but there's no fucking way to even "code to the spec" because there is no spec. Atwood, of course, knew all of this bullshit when he picked it but he picked it anyway because... oh yeah! Because HE HATES US.
No, he thinks that Markdown is perfection. He has written almost as much about it as he has fucking RegExs. It is part of his fucking religion.
-
@Intercourse said:
No, he thinks that Markdown is perfection.
That blog post says he likes Markdown as the least sucky of the sucky things available, but that he thinks McGruber should give in and make Markdown do what Jeff Atwood, God of Internet, thinks it should do; only then will it be Perfection.
That was in 2009, so I can only assume the fully Jeffecated version of Markdown is what we have implemented on Dicsourse.
-
That was in 2009, so I can only assume the fully Jeffecated version of Markdown is what we have implemented on Dicsourse.
I think they are using an off-the-shelf parser, so unless that was written by an Atwoodian, it's not.
-
http://blog.codinghorror.com/responsible-open-source-code-parenting/
So, markdown is the worst form of markup apart from the rest. I can almost get along with that. I don't like it, and all, but it's probably the closest to "text as you'd write it" if you absolutely must write it direct rather than using a javascript editor, especially for non-computar-machien-peple.So, what could possibly make it better, especially given that the implementation here fixes http://url.s and inter_word_underlines (<a @twatwood's big bugbears in that article)? It's easy.
##SIMPLY SHOEHORN IN EVERY OTHER FORM OF MARKUP USING REGEX MADNESS AND ENSURE NOTHING WORKS ENTIRELY AS YOU'D EXPECT
Meanwhile, replace "markdown" with "pissforce" and "John Gruber" with <a @twatwood in the following...
Which leads me to the biggest problem with Markdown: John Gruber.
…
But John Gruber created Markdown. He came up with the concept and the initial implementation. He is, in every sense of the word, the parent of Markdown. It's his baby.
…
John is running this particular open source project the way Steve Jobs runs Apple – by sheer force of individual ego. And that sucks.
-
-
> [s]John[/s]Jeff is running this particular open source project the way Steve Jobs runs Apple – by sheer force of individual ego. And that sucks.
Fixed that for you
-
So, markdown is the worst form of markup apart from the rest. I can almost get along with that. I don't like it, and all, but it's probably the closest to "text as you'd write it" if you absolutely must write it direct rather than using a javascript editor, especially for non-computar-machien-peple.
Yeah that's the same bullshit Atwood said, and I'm sitting here going: what?
Have you EVER seen a normal non-geek human being use Markdown for... anything? No. They use a WYSIWYG editor, like everything has. Have you EVER seen Markdown on a site not intended for the geekiest of the geeks? Well kind of now that it's in Discourse, but that's a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Markdown is a usability nightmare. You type "3." and you get "1.". I can't even get over how wrong that is.
As for the bitching about how the Markdown project is run, about how there's no spec, etc... THAT WAS ALL IN PLACE WHEN YOU PICKED IT DUMBSHIT! If you have all these disagreements with it, WHY DID YOU CHOOSE IT?
-
Fixed that for you
Except he already said that:
Meanwhile, replace "markdown" with "pissforce" and "John Gruber" with @twatwood in the following...
-
Have you EVER seen a normal non-geek human being use Markdown for... anything?
I find the following features useful:
* for emphasis
** for stronger emphasis
> for quoted textThese hark back to the days of plain-text-only email and USENET, and make sense when you want those effects in plain text. But we're no longer dealing with plain text, so they're a convenient shorthand for things like [b], but nothing more. And, I suppose you might argue that "normal non-geek human being[s]" didn't use them because they didn't even know what the Internet was back in the days of plain-text-only email and USENET. (One might also opine that they still don't, really.)
Markdown is a usability nightmare.
With the exception of the three convenient shortcuts mentioned above, agreed.
-
And, I suppose you might argue that "normal non-geek human being[s]" didn't use them because they didn't even know what the Internet was back in the days of plain-text-only email and USENET.
Yes I might argue that. And I would be correct.
-
These hark back to the days of plain-text-only email and USENET, and make sense when you want those effects in plain text.
Except they are non obvious. I like other systems like creole which use, e.g., // for italics and ** for bold. That sort of thing makes more sense.
And, I suppose you might argue that "normal non-geek human being[s]" didn't use them because they didn't even know what the Internet was back in the days of plain-text-only email and USENET. (One might also opine that the still don't, really.)
Except this sort of person is on facebook now and they do use them there.
And I would be correct.
Because it's a trivial point, not because they are too stupid to deal with simple ways to add emphasis to text.
-
Have you EVER seen a normal non-geek human being use Markdown for... anything?
Except this sort of person is on facebook now and they do use them there.
Technically, @blakeyrat wins this point, at least from me. I'm not on facebook, so I've never seen them use it.
-
He can win it all he wants...it's still an irrelevant point.
-
Have you EVER seen a normal non-geek human being use Markdown for... anything? No.
Nope. But if they had to, they could probably get something close to what they wanted without too much trouble1, at least until they started to want to do complex formatting.
@blakeyrat said:They use a WYSIWYG editor, like everything has.
Exactly. That's why I wrote
@tufty said:if you absolutely must write it direct rather than using a javascript editor
Yes, I missed out the implied… and the fact <a @twatwood's software makes people write markhtmlbbdowncode manually is, at best, stunningly awful UI design. Like everything else UI in pissforce.
Sorry if you were unable to infer that.
1 Obviously, I'm talking about plain old markdown, not the super-html-bb-markdown-code as "parsed" by <a @twatwood's toxic hellstew of useless regexps.
-
(Hint: another helpful set of tips from the MS Paperclip assistant...)
-
Markdown is a usability nightmare. You type "3." and you get "1.". I can't even get over how wrong that is.
Responsible Open Source Code Parenting
