Unix Haters' Club


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    Continuing the discussion from Constant name:

    @Onyx said:

    ^C
    ^X
    ^Q
    ^C
    ^C
    ^C
    ^C
    exit
    quit
    justfuckingdie
    Ctrl+Shift+T
    killall vi

    What? Oh. Sorry. Wrong window.

    Post your complaints about *NIX and its flagship editors vi(m) and emacs here. Don't worry that your complaint may have already appeared in The UNIX Hater's Handbook; no one reads that except people who actually like *NIX.


  • sockdevs

    The above is clearly seeding /dev/random


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    I thought everything was seeding /dev/random.


  • :belt_onion:

    I just want to point out that I don't hate *NIX. But, as stated before, if you use something you're at least somewhat qualified to bitch about it.



  • How about how you can't find a CLI editor that just fucking copies the normal text operations and shortcuts from desktop editors? Ctrl+C/X/V, expected Home/End/arrows behavior, text selection and undo. That's it. A few simple things, pretty much what Xerox demonstrated 30 years ago. How hard is that?

    But no, they all have to reinvent hot water, like every user is a vim guru they must fight over.

    And yes, I know emacs has some kind of compatibility mode they hastily put together and that true emacs gurus hate. It still doesn't work right. And you still need to fallback to stinkin' nano or vim every time you SSH somewhere.

    WHY THE FUCK CAN'T THEY JUST GIVE ME A NORMAL TEXT EDITOR! IS IT TOO MUCH TO ASK?


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @Onyx said:

    I just want to point out that I don't hate *NIX. But, as stated before, if you use something you're at least somewhat qualified to bitch about it.

    You don't actually have to hate *NIX to post here. Having complaints about it is sufficient.


  • :belt_onion:

    I just want to point out that I don't hate *NIX, just HP-UX


  • :belt_onion:

    HP-UX = unix flavor, so hurrah.



  • @darkmatter said:

    HP-UX = unix flavor, so hurrah.

    TRWTF: Knowing enough UNIX to recognize different flavors.


  • :belt_onion:

    It's the worst flavor. It's like that lemon yellow popsicle.

    What kind of moron thought ESCK should be how you retrieve prior entries to the command line? Why can't the damn Up/Down arrows work? The whole command line interface on HP-UX is like navigating VI, PERMANENTLY.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @cartman82 said:

    How about how you can't find a CLI editor that just fucking copies the normal text operations and shortcuts from desktop editors? Ctrl+C/X/V, expected Home/End/arrows behavior, text selection and undo. That's it. A few simple things, pretty much what Xerox demonstrated 30 years ago. How hard is that?

    But no, they all have to reinvent hot water, like every user is a vim guru they must fight over.

    And yes, I know emacs has some kind of compatibility mode they hastily put together and that true emacs gurus hate. It still doesn't work right. And you still need to fallback to stinkin' nano or vim every time you SSH somewhere.

    WHY THE FUCK CAN'T THEY JUST GIVE ME A NORMAL TEXT EDITOR! IS IT TOO MUCH TO ASK?

    Will it help me get a pedantic dickweed badge if I point out that both emacs and vi predate notepad and the Ctrl-C/X/V convention?



  • @antiquarian said:

    Will it help me get a pedantic dickweed badge if I point out that both emacs and vi predate notepad and the Ctrl-C/X/V convention?

    NO


  • :belt_onion:

    I'd like but I have 9 hours till I can again.
    And then I"ll run out immediately afterwards, so I probably won't get to like this for weeks.



  • @darkmatter said:

    The whole command line interface on HP-UX is like navigating VI, PERMANENTLY.

    You know how some religions have customized hells, like pedophiles getting raped constantly and such? That sounds like the version for normal computer users.


  • :belt_onion:

    It seriously is.
    On HP-UX, backspace just cu^H^H^H^H AKJDF:AIDFJA
    On HP-UX, backspace just causes those things you see above.



  • Oh sweet, a hater's club that covers every single OS I hate! (any Linux, and OS X is conveniently also a UNIX)



  • This topic needed an extra 't' in the title.



  • I have this in my .bash_profile just in case a command line application asks for a commit message or something like that (e.g., git rebase -i).

    if [[ -n "$DISPLAY" ]]; then
        export EDITOR=/usr/bin/leafpad
    else
        export EDITOR=/usr/bin/nano
    fi
    

    Filed under: I miss EDIT.COM


  • :belt_onion:

    @fatbull said:

    ```bash
    export EDITOR=/usr/bin/leafpad

    
    That reminds me... Fucking Gnome!
    
    Seriously, it was fine from the standpoint of a desktop environment. Then came Gnome 3. No, sorry, Gnome Shell, pretty much causing the Windows 8 level shitstorm (though people were already slightly tired after all the Unity bashing).
    
    But really, aside from whining about "it's different!", and moving some features to a stupid place ("Where the fuck is the shutdown button?". Again, Windows 8 anyone?) it was fine, really.
    
    But then... 
    
    <img src='/uploads/default/4596/9ed5319da179330b.png'>
    
    Hello Nautilus 3! Look at you all pretty, and shiny, ***and missing half the fucking features any power-user would want!***
    
    Tabs, gone. Split view, gone. Condensed view (equivalent to "List" in Windows Explorer), gone. What the shit Gnome?
    
    As a comparison, Nautilus 3 fork, called Nemo:
    
    <img src='/uploads/default/4597/e74864c60a74badf.png'>


  • Vi(m) and programs that make up their own argument syntax (i.e. +whatever instead of -whatever). I'm just used to the other bullshit I guess.



  • @cartman82 said:

    How about how you can't find a CLI editor that just fucking copies the normal text operations and shortcuts from desktop editors? Ctrl+C/X/V, expected Home/End/arrows behavior, text selection and undo. That's it. A few simple things, pretty much what Xerox demonstrated 30 years ago. How hard is that?

    I'm noticing an interesting duality...

    @Onyx said:

    Hello Nautilus 3! Look at you all pretty, and shiny, and missing half the fucking features any power-user would want!

    These are two separate people, but are we asking for programs that are both user-friendly and power-user-friendly? I think those two goals might be necessarily at odds.

    We want a simple, easy-to-use control scheme but we also want controls out the ass.



  • Nautilus? Really? WTF dude, I thought you were cool.

    Twin-panel managers 4ever. :heartpulse: :heartpulse::heartpulse:


  • :belt_onion:

    Speaking for Nautilus / Nemo here. Look at the Nemo screenshot. Does it look intimidating? Note that split view is NOT the default and can be activated by either using F3 or through the view menu. Tabs are the regular CtrlT deal. Moving and copying stuff is drag&drop or the usual shortcuts.

    Does that sound complicated, or a barrier to entry to you? Because it doesn't to me. Nobody is forcing you to use those features, and are not even shoved in your face.

    Also, Nautilus did keep the CtrlS shortcut that allows you to enter a selection pattern. Basically, if you enter *.jpg it will select all the jpg files in the current directory. Way more confusing, but kept.


  • :belt_onion:

    I keep Midnight commander at hand. And yes, removing the twin panel support is the reason I will never look at Nautilus again. I don't need two panels very often though, so split view in Nemo is usually enough for me.


  • area_deu

    Krusader is pretty awesome, but I prefer having a full terminal emulator at the bottom of my file manager window.

    Dolphin 4 life!



  • @Onyx said:

    Hello Nautilus 3! Look at you all pretty, and shiny, and missing half the fucking features any power-user would want!

    Also, where the fuck is titlebar? How do you drag that thing? Fuck!

    @Onyx said:

    I keep Midnight commander at hand.

    I could never get into that one. There's just not enough features. CLI environment doesn't help either. I use it through SSH sometimes.

    @aliceif said:

    Krusader is pretty awesome, but I prefer having a full terminal emulator at the bottom of my file manager window.

    Krusader has that too. I shut it off for extra space, since I always use the real terminal anyways.


    Want to know the best Krusader feature I just recently discovered?

    Tools > New Net Connection...
    Protocol: fish://
    Enter your SSH credentials and click "Connect"
    BOOM! Now you have file management on a remote server through a secure tunnel! I'm never using sftp or scp again!


  • :belt_onion:

    @cartman82 said:

    Want to know the best Krusader feature I just recently discovered?

    Tools > New Net Connection...Enter your SSH credentials and click "Connect"BOOM! Now you have file management on a remote server through a secure tunnel! I'm never using sftp or scp again!

    Sigh...

    onyx@jarvis:~$ sudo apt-get install krusader



  • @Onyx said:

    Sigh...

    onyx@jarvis:~$ sudo apt-get install krusader

    Sorry, it's not that easy. That's an old buggy 2.0 version, that's missing half the features. To get the latest 2.4 hotness, you'll have to build from source.


  • :belt_onion:

    onyx@jarvis:~$ krusader --version
    Qt: 4.8.4
    KDE Development Platform: 4.11.5
    Krusader: 2.4.0-beta3 "Single Step"
    

    You were saying?



  • Ooooh, nice. Probably because you're using shiny Mint's sources, instead of crusty old Debian's like I am.



  • BTW when did this become *nix like thread?
    Really guys, can't we keep anything on topic?


  • :belt_onion:

    Don't worry. I'll find something that annoys me soon enough. Or someone else will.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    You must be new here.



  • Most *nix tools are not bad, from a purely technical point of view. If you learn vi or emacs properly you can do some pretty cool stuff (or so I've heard).

    The problem is, they were not designed as a whole. They were evolved independently and chaotically. Evolved to fit the needs of geeks that don't understand the cognitive process of unexperienced users at all, because they already knew how to operate computers by the age of 8. And evolution tends to result in highly optimized crappy design.



  • @Onyx said:

    Hello Nautilus 3! Look at you all pretty, and shiny, and missing half the fucking features any power-user would want!

    I think they are making the common mistake of thinking that every computer user should use the same interface.

    Thinking that a noob who literally does not understand the concept of "button", and a "power user" who has memorized >500 keyboard shortcuts and commands should always use the computer in the same way is patently ridiculous.

    The "UX experts" hear complaints that new users are confused, so they go "simplify, simplify, simplify". But the real mistake is not acknowledging that there is a learning curve and that some users are at the bottom (not in a negative sense) and that some are at the top, and that some people are willing (not forced, that's an important point) to sacrifice some time and mental resources (like learning a command line syntax) in exchange for higher speed when operating the computer.

    I think all interface designers should be forced to know some cognitive science. After all, the point of an interface is to let a brain interact with a processor in the most optimal way, and you can't do that if you understand only half of the system.


  • :belt_onion:

    Back on topic:

    Fucking PulseAudio. Or Bluetooth module. Whichever it is. But I suspect Pulse. Why the fuck does the sound start stuttering on my bluetooth headset if there is no sound being played for a few minutes? What the fuck happens in meantime? Do you keep pushing a stream of nothing through bluetooth interface which refuses to send literally nothing out or something?

    I know the headset is fine because it doesn't do that when connected to my Android. So what the fuck?


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @anonymous234 said:

    The "UX experts" hear complaints that new users are confused, so they go "simplify, simplify, simplify". But the real mistake is not acknowledging that there is a learning curve and that some users are at the bottom (not in a negative sense) and that some are at the top, and that some people are willing (not forced, that's an important point) to sacrifice some time and mental resources (like learning a command line syntax) in exchange for higher speed when operating the computer.

    And the users who are not willing (hereinafter the "lusers") will say that the higher speed is an illusion, and complain about the products that are written for the benefit of those who are willing (hereinafter the "elite"), saying those products aren't luser-friendly and that people who advocate using those products are just elitists.


  • :belt_onion:

    I find entertaining that we didn't end up in this discussion due to vim or some other piece of software with arcane incantations, but Nautilus of all things.

    I'm mostly pissed about it because the barrier to entry is the same with or without stripped out features. They are not required, not pushed on the users, and if you didn't go poking around the menus (or reading the help files) you'd never know they are there. Once you know about them you can use them, or ignore them and go on your merry way like nothing ever happened.

    The only reason I can think of for removing tabs and split view is "we can't make it purty".


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    I have another reason. There's a school of thought that says that software should only be written for the benefit of lusers. According to this school, a learning curve of any kind is evil and everything should work intuitively (which really means the same way as whatever programs the luser learned first). They will also say that since the elitists don't really work any faster (that's just an illusion), there's no reason to include elitists in design decisions.


  • area_deu

    The thing is that those people forget that humans operate based on perception, not on facts.
    For example, if elitists feel like the way do things works better for them, it works better for them!



  • @Onyx said:

    I find entertaining that we didn't end up in this discussion due to vim or some other piece of software with arcane incantations, but Nautilus of all things.

    Well, there isn't much to argue about vim. It's literally impossible to use for anyone who hasn't read several tutorials.


  • sockdevs

    @anonymous234 said:

    Well, there isn't much to argue about vim. It's literally impossible to use for anyone who hasn't read several tutorials.

    Discourse is approaching this.



  • In Jeff's own words:

    Discouraging the "wrong" things by making those things intentionally difficult, complex, and awkward to do.

    Which does seem to apply to most of Discourse.


    Filed under: Using Discourse as intended is doing it wrong.


  • sockdevs

    And don't forget:

    Comment moderation will be more stringent. If you don't have something useful and reasonably constructive to say in your comment, it will be removed without hesitation. You can be as critical of me (or, better still, my arguments and ideas) as you like, but you must convince me that you're contributing to the conversation and not just yelling at me or anyone else.



  • In what world does it make sense to not include sudo by default in Free/Open/Net/IFuckingHateUsersBSD?

    Oh wait, I know. To quote my CS 110 professor, "In UNIX, you know what you are doing. In BSD, you are the alpha and the omega. Don't fuck up."



  • @cartman82 said:

    Enter your SSH credentials [...] I'm never using sftp [...] again!

    SFTP? The SSH File Transfer Protocol?

    You're saying fish shell over SSH is more secure than SSH?


  • :belt_onion:

    @MathNerdCNU said:

    In what world does it make sense to not include sudo by default in Free/Open/Net/IFuckingHateUsersBSD?

    There are Linux distros that don't include it be default either. Can't remember which off the top of my mind, but I know I dealt with one recently.

    Also, Debian still forces you to log in as root at least once since the default user you create during install doesn't have sudo. And /etc/sudoers is read-only even if you're root, you have to use visudo.

    Distribute into bad and good ideas threads as needed.



  • @ben_lubar said:

    You're saying fish shell over SSH is more secure than SSH?

    Nah, he's saying it's easier to drag & drop through a fish:// mounted "directory" in nautilus than command-line copying. Which might be right in some use cases.

    There's other ways of doing the same thing : fuse + sshfs, etc.

    But you know what really gets my fucking goat about Unix? People think you're talking about Linux.


  • :belt_onion:

    @tufty said:

    There's other ways of doing the same thing : fuse + sshfs, etc.

    This usually works very well, actually. It also seems to be much more stable on a flaky connection.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @Onyx said:

    There are Linux distros that don't include it be default either. Can't remember which off the top of my mind, but I know I dealt with one recently.

    PCLinuxOS. You have to go out of your way to add the repo that contains it. I just su -c "command" or simply have a terminal with su - open on it.

    Because that's totally more secure than the convenience of having sudo lying around where anyone can pick it up and play with it. I'm looking at you TexStar:

    Sudo is just another Linux tool, but one that when abused can drastically impair the security of ones system. All the major Linux releases, except the buntus and their clones, agree that when used ITMOTB ["In The Manner Of The Buntus"| - ed], sudo is a major security risk, so none of them, by default, implement it ITMOTB . Our policy has also always been to not support the use of sudo ITMOTB, and we have never varied on that. When we say we discourage the use of sudo, ITMOTB, we say it with extreme prejudice.

    Idiots. "People might abuse this tool, so we'll strip it out by default and make it difficult to put back in, even for experienced admins who know WTF they're doing.


    @tufty said:

    Nah, he's saying it's easier to drag & drop through a fish:// mounted "directory" in nautilus than command-line copying. Which might be right in some use cases.

    There's other ways of doing the same thing : fuse + sshfs, etc.

    Onto something PCLOS seems to get right by default however:


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