Topic not found doesn't match expected post style



  • http://what.thedailywtf.com/t/xss-script-window-alert-xss-document-cookie-script/906

    Topics are listed in side by side table format, with no images about topics/users/posts/likes/etc.

    Is there a reason this doesn't just show the topic list like everywhere else?



  • The message "The page you requested doesn't exist or is private." should tell you why you get something other than the basic latest list of topics. Though I guess if they just put that message over the top of the basic latest list thingy it would also work.



  • Putting that message over the basic latest list thingy is the behavior I was expecting. It's an important message, but feels weird since the site style changes.



  • It might depend on what you clicked to get it though. I could see putting the message at the top of latest being confusing if you clicked a link to something from the latest list. Either you click a topic and bam! you are at the top of the same thingy you were on (with message) rather than the topic you thought you were going to see.



  • Verse being in the same place, with the same links, in a different format?

    I'm not asking them to change where they are going or how they are handling the message, I'm asking to make the site design consistent with everywhere else.



  • I'm just saying that the different format helps drive the point home that something ("hey you are being actively blocked!") happened vs. just popping a message would. But really you'd need to do A/B testing with regular users (so not here) to see which was more/less confusing.


  • Banned

    Here's what you see

    The minimalist formatting is intentional, yes -- what else would you really need on a 404 page?

    And also, bots hitting a site and generating a ton of 404s can cause a lot of load if the 404 page is complex and requires a lot of db queries to build.



  • So what I'm hearing is 'We don't cache our recent topics in any way for bots or people who hit 404 pages'


  • mod

    @Matches said:

    Putting that message over the basic latest list thingy is the behavior I was expecting. It's an important message, but feels weird since the site style changes.

    There's your problem. You're expecting sanity from discourse. Forget all expectations and just use the software. It's much safer that way.



  • I was going to give you a like for your first two sentences, then you went and fucked it up with your third, and destroyed it with your fourth.


  • mod

    @Matches said:

    I was going to give you a like for your first two sentences, then you went and fucked it up with your third, and destroyed it with your fourth.

    I think I may be developing a software oriented version of Stockholm Syndrome. I'm going to call it Discourse Syndrome.



  • I'm pretty sure it's just a discurse, a witchdoctor may be able to help.


  • Banned

    @Matches said:

    I'm asking to make the site design consistent with everywhere else.

    The 404 page is not supposed to be "consistent", it means something is not there.

    Is the GitHub 404 page "consistent" with looking at a repo or otherwise working within GitHub? Hmm? Is it?

    No, and this is 100% by design.



  • Why do you keep comparing your software to the software of others (that isn't even forum software)?

    That said,

    This page also clearly states '404, page not found' and says 'search for a different topic'

    In contrast, your page says 'Does not exist' and offers topics that exist in your most recent list, but you don't use the formatting from that source data.

    If you put a picture up of a pretty pony with a search, it would match my expectations significantly closer than what you're doing right now.

    [Edit] Or, TL;DR:
    The difference is in presentation. They clearly want you to use the search command, it's the only command on screen, and they give you a reason why you have to do it.

    You offer 'You can do these things (which is a standard feature of what we offer) or you can search' - but you don't present it in the same fashion as you have on the rest of the site.


  • Banned

    OK, then

    Filed under: fixed



  • You know what?

    Fuck you. I'm done trying to help you fix your shit.


  • sockdevs

    I hate to be That Guy, but what gave you the feeling Jeff would listen to any feedback that didn't already match his own assertions about How Things Should Be? Remember, Jeff is clearly always right, even when demonstrably wrong.



  • Benefit of the doubt that he was just socially inept.


  • Banned

    Even when I'm not actually wrong!



  • I'm resigned to just pointing out all of the broken things, and expecting them to not be fixed.


  • sockdevs

    It's one of the reasons I like coming here. It reminds me how not to develop software.


  • Banned

    @abarker said:

    There's your problem. You're expecting sanity from discourse. Forget all expectations and just use the software. It's much safer that way.

    This is a 404 page, one you should very rarely if ever go to. I can get arguments saying,

    • Strip more information out of this page
    • Write 404 on it somewhere (even though big sites often omit it)

    I just don't get the argument of

    Please make all the formatting consistent with everything else

    Cause at best that would cause even more confusion.


    You are making the wrong argument here (it should be show less information, be clearer), besides its such an edge case I do not see the urgency with addressing this now.


  • mod

    No, it isn't an urgent issue, and I think you guys made a reasonable choice. The only thing I'd (possibly) change is to remove the recent topics.


  • mod

    @codinghorror said:

    The 404 page is not supposed to be "consistent", it means something is not there.

    Is the GitHub 404 page "consistent" with looking at a repo or otherwise working within GitHub? Hmm? Is it?

    No, and this is 100% by design.

    One more time, and let's see if it sticks this time: just because another software product does it, doesn't make it right. Stop using other sites to justify your choices.


  • Banned

    @Matches said:

    This [GitHub 404] page also clearly states '404, page not found' and says 'search for a different topic'

    In contrast, your page...


    Well, actually, the GitHub 404 page you're referring to says

    404, this is not the web page you are looking for

    and

    Find code, projects, and people on GitHub:

    1. The goal is not to overwhelm visitors who get a 404 with a lot of random front-page topic stats, but to teach them "hey, you're probably new here, this is what we do on this site." And the best way to do that is to show them a brief list of a) the latest topics and b) the top all time topics.

    2. 404 pages should be simple and minimalistic. They mean "oops, nothing is here", not "look at this thing that is indistinguishable from our front page." If you implement the entire website on a 404 page, you're kind of doing it wrong. Feel free to take a journey through many other sites' 404 pages. I have blog entries I can point to where I've done this kind of research before.

    It doesn't really matter any more with this particular audience if I communicate the actual reasons for our decisions, as history shows they will be reflexively dismissed because reasons, so I have generally stopped bothering.

    Shrug. YMMV, [insert lolcat], [filed under]


  • sockdevs

    Here's the thing... we're communicating the issues we see, and you're reflexively dismissing them for reasons too, as though your reasons for something are better than our reasons for disliking something.

    To other communities, sure, you might well be absolutely right and justified because you might genuinely know better. But in front of this community, who are all developers, you simply can't pull that kind of shit and expect not to be called on it.


  • mod

    @codinghorror said:

    Even when I'm not actually wrong!

    I think what you're missing is that @Matches is getting frustrated that you are walking a line between trying to match the rest of the site, but not going full-ante. He's asking you to pick a course: either display the information the same way it's displayed everywhere else in the site, or don't display the topic lists.

    And he took your example to point it out. Github's 404 page makes it obvious that they are breaking from the standard of their site. They make it obvious that something is different, and not to expect anything normal. And then they give you just one option: search. Discourse, on the other hand, looks more like (well maybe there's something wrong, here's a bunch of stuff you're used to, but it doesn't look quite right.

    For tl;dr: Stop standing in the middle of the road and pick a side.


  • Banned


  • sockdevs

    And you wonder why the community by and large doesn't give you any respect.


  • mod

    Please, stop with the damn worthless videos. It's patronizing.

    Between that, the random topic splitting, not listening, your generally dismissive attitude, it's no wonder that this community has a general dislike for you.


  • Banned

    That's just how things work here. It's kind of awesome.


  • sockdevs

    FFS, you really have no idea how this community actually functions, do you?

    No wonder your software is such a poor fit for this community.


  • mod

    Yes, but you're here to improve and sell Discourse. For you, this is a ** business setting **. You should be acting more ** professional **. You should not be stooping to our level. And actually, posting random videos and lolcats isn't that common in these forums. At least, it wasn't until you showed up. So you're not only stooping to our level, you're dropping below us.


  • Banned

    My bad. This community is clearly based on mutual love and respect.

    @abarker said:

    You should not be stooping to our level

    On your first day in prison, you have to shank someone.


  • sockdevs

    You're still wrong. But I could explain it, and you'll misinterpret it anyway because it will continue to not fit into how you think things should work.


  • mod

    FFS!! You've been here for weeks! We know what a shithead you are! You should have been a professional from day 1! As I already said:

    @abarker said:

    For you, this is a business setting.

    You should $DEITYdamn act like it!


  • BINNED

    Ok, let me try. And fail. But try.

    This is not a "omgz Oracle suckz yoo guise, roflcopter" topic.
    This is a "this shit be broken, yo. i have a bug report, and repro and like everything here man" topic.

    I just chanelled a 14 year old who can't type, and I understand the difference. Let's see who else can claim such wisdom.


  • Banned

    Is it is a business setting? Are we getting paid for this engagement? No we are not.

    If anything we're non-profit open source volunteers here.

    Am I interested in your feedback? Yes. Otherwise why would I be here.

    Filed under: you're welcome



  • @sam said:

    This is a 404 page, one you should very rarely if ever go to. I can get arguments saying,

    Strip more information out of this page
    Write 404 on it somewhere (even though big sites often omit it)

    One rule I follow is that a 404 page or a page-level error page (e.g., when you hit Application_Error in .NET) should only have static content.


  • sockdevs

    If you were genuinely interested in our feedback, you wouldn't be dismissing it out of hand if it doesn't agree with your view of how things should be. Fortunately, @sam has been listening, which has been quite pleasant (very pleasant in comparison, quite pleasant in general)


  • mod

    @codinghorror said:

    Is it is a business setting? Are we getting paid for this engagement? No we are not.

    If anything we're non-profit open source volunteers here.

    Am I interested in your feedback? Yes. Otherwise why would I be here.

    Filed under: you're welcome

    • Are you trying to make Discourse better? Yes.
    • Are you able to make money off of Discourse? From what I've seen and heard, you actually do have paying installs out there. So this gets a Yes.
    • Will our bug reports and efforts to make Discourse better for you help you make more money? Most likely.

    Ad that together ... carry the 2 ... and this is a business setting for you. Maybe not because you are making money here, but because we are helping you make your product better. And we aren't charging you a dime for it. So stop being a dick.


  • Banned

    If the good cop, bad cop dynamic works for you, I'm pleased.


  • mod

    That's a good rule.


  • mod

    I think the point @Arantor was trying to make is that you should treat this forum more like how @sam treats us. You treat us like a burden. Sam actually acts like we're useful. And when something won't work in Discourse, he actually says why, instead of just reasons.


  • Banned

    I think the root of the issue is that this is prescribing a solution that makes little sense.

    @Matches said:

    Is there a reason this doesn't just show the topic list like everywhere else?

    The problem here, that I think got on @codinghorror's nerves is that a "solution" is being prescribed and a problem is being poorly defined

    I am really confused by your 404 page, its showing me too much stuff. I could not even tell its a 404 page.

    ^^^ Very reasonable argument to make.

    However,

    This is how you go to unsuck discurse - improve formatting on the lists in the 404 page ... Jeff never listens to anything he will ignore this anyway but we are right

    I can get that @codinghorror gets annoyed, we both have different styles of argument, I think this community definitely managed to bring out the troll in Jeff. No argument there.

    We both very much care about the product and the feedback just have different ways of dealing with it. I guess my skin is just way thicker.


  • sockdevs

    Yup, that's what I was trying to say.

    Good cop, bad cop is a terrible way to be productive. It's a good way of softening someone up to make them more pliable - except that shit won't fly with a group of people who know the playbook.


  • Banned

    I actually explained why, several times. You just didn't care for my explanations.

    @sam said:

    I think this community definitely managed to bring out the troll in Jeff

    This is a community about trolling. It has been described to us, repeatedly, as "a community of trolls".

    And I'm actually OK with that, as long as it results in usable feedback. But I will respond in kind, reflecting back exactly what is given and what is expected here, to wit:

    http://what.thedailywtf.com/t/vote-of-no-confidence/270/95?u=codinghorror



  • It's part of our jobs as a developer to interpret what people are trying to complain about.

    I will grant you that my prescribed solution isn't optimal, fine. But there wasn't a recommendation of anything else, and I was proposing what would make sense to me

    I agree with the minimalist style. In fact, I think the current usage would be fine if you removed all of the recent topic stuff.



  • It's a community of trolls, yes.

    But my topic wasn't made to troll you, and neither were my responses. Don't use @error as your justification to piss all over my complaints when I'm trying to report something I see as an issue.

    Or, my original TL;DR [ninja edit]

    Or, TL;DR: The difference is in presentation. They clearly want you to use the search command, it's the only command on screen, and they give you a reason why you have to do it.

    You offer 'You can do these things (which is a standard feature of what we offer) or you can search' - but you don't present it in the same fashion as you have on the rest of the site.


  • mod

    @sam said:

    I think the root of the issue is that this is prescribing a solution that makes little sense.

    The problem here, that I think got on @codinghorror's nerves is that a "solution" is being prescribed and a problem is being poorly defined

    I can understand that, but even when others (like myself) came in and tried to clarify, he just kept trolling. I tried to help work through the issue, and @Arantor did a bit as well, to try and help Jeff see what the original complaint was, and what possible fixes could be. But what did we get? comparisons to other software (which we keep telling Jeff is not acceptable reasoning), and this awful thing:

    @codinghorror said:

    Not to mention some random video that has no meaning for this topic. Honestly, if that's the reception we can expect from Jeff, I'm done sending any bugs or requests to him.


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