The WTFs that turned out not to be WTFs
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It might be that there's nothing to fix, on a fundamental level. I'm not a biologist, nor a sociologist, but this is a real thing:
There are certain things that differ in genetic makeup of males and females of the species which we don't even completely understand as of yet. Maybe, in general, it's not only a sociological thing, but also a genetic thing.
I agree there are assholes. And I agree that any law that is unfair should be fixed. But if you can show that there were no inequalities in education and interview process it sounds to me like advocating the equality just for the sake of getting pretty numbers in statistics.
More women in IT? Sure, go ahead, but don't either force women into it if they show no interest in it, nor accuse employers of being unfair for not employing women just for the sake of stats.
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Maybe, in general, it's not only a sociological thing, but also a biological thing.
FTFY. There's more to what's going on inside cells and bodies than just genetics.Biology's a total mess. Anyone promoting Intelligent Design is just demonstrating that they really have no idea about biology, intelligence or design, because nobody would set out to do things in the crazy way that biology does them. (A theory of Stupid Cruel Bodges would be much harder to defeat with scientific analysis.)
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I was referring mostly to basic "programming". Of course, a lot of pre-programed stuff can get messed up during a person's life, and it might just well be that hormonal balance and whatnot actually gets affected by factors we don't even know about yet.
But yeah, I was oversimplifying the point.
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The point is, if all employers were fair and none of them were judging you based on your gender, would there be the same amount of female and male programmers?
I think not, but I don't particularily consider it a genetic thing. It's mostly because for hundreds of years, we've been estabilishing some traditional social constructs, and as much as we'd love to change them, they're still somewhere deep in our collective subconscious.
Hell, it wasn't so long ago that if you had a smart girl, she'd end up on the stake.
A lot of fathers want their sons to be the next Bill Gates, but you don't see many mothers training future Ada Lovelace. Is it bad? Maybe; I've seen a lot of brilliant female programmers (and have had a pleasure of working with one)*. It sure wastes a lot of talents.
But that's how it is, and it's gonna take years to change that. It's not simply the matter of making STEM attainable to women, it's also the matter of making STEM desirable for them.
And it's not gonna be easy - it's still a fairly male-dominated environment, so if you want to survive, you either need to be "one of the guys" or cope with males seeing you as a woman first, and a colleague second. It's gonna take a while to break out of the vicious cycle of "women don't want to take up programming, because there aren't many women in programming".
*To be fair, I've also seen a lot of "brillant" ones (and also have had a displeasure of working with one)
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There may be some real issues, but I can't see what they are thru all the geek ultrafeminists "no boob or dick jokes" noise.
Its easy to see no issues if you don't care. Not caring is basically the fundament or not seeing an issue. And if one doesn't care, one is automatically quick to judge the other side as "ultra", even if they're not that extreme. Everything's fine for me, I don't see a problem, it's not my fault, why should I care?Is IT hostile or unwelcoming to women?
Is the perception of IT among women that it is hostile or unwelcoming to women? How can we take that away?It's easy to shrug and play dumb, like @abarker, but the obvious observation is that only a tiny fraction of IT is women. Now, women are clearly not dumb, and they're clearly not paralyzed from the wrist down so they're capable to typing keywords and brackets. There is no obvious inherent reason why this discrepancy should be so. So the first step is to ask the above questions. You may think the answer is No, but maybe it's Yes and you don't even realize it. Some expressions you use, some jokes you make, some habits you've got.
And then there's the old wisdom: it may not be your fault, but you can try to fix it anyway.
Gaming/Geek culture sure is hostile/unwelcoming, for one thing. Women get asked ridiculous things to "prove" their geekdom; or they just do it for the attention; or whatever. If I tried to be part of a group and got the impression they didn't really want me there, I'd stop too.
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Its easy to see no issues if you don't care. Not caring is basically the fundament or not seeing an issue. And if one doesn't care, one is automatically quick to judge the other side as "ultra", even if they're not that extreme. Everything's fine for me, I don't see a problem, it's not my fault, why should I care?
This is where you and me differ in our approach to the subject. I'm not saying there's not an issue at this point, but I think the best way to treat is as a non-issue.
To elaborate before I get my head chewed off: I call someone an asshole because that person is an asshole. The actual reasoning I employed to reach that conclusion is inconsequential. By calling out a specific issue as something to be solved you actually drag out loonies from both sides. And since they are always the most vocal ones, that makes any kind of reasonable discussion about that issue almost impossible, since most of the people entering the discussion will look for the loon in anything that other person says, because why not, those loons are everywhere!
I believe that waging "holy wars" on anything actually diminishes the issue that should be solved. Once you go there you get people who cry wolf on every single little thing they get annoyed with and blame it on whatever token crusade is popular at the moment. And when someone without strong opinions on the matter comes along and wants to know what is actually going on, the first thing he sees is a bunch of petty squabbling and dismisses the whole thing, or, even worse, sides with one of the loons.
So, personally, when I see an asshole I call out an asshole. I don't go out on a holy war against the reason he's an asshole. I present my arguments the best I can and hope that I can make anyone that was on the fence think about what I said. When I see a loon, I just walk by and go talk to someone else who actually has reasoned arguments. Of course, that means I get called out for not caring (or worse) a lot of times.
Is my approach any good? I guess not, it would probably only work in a fairy land where majority is reasonable and assholes get laughed at a mere mention of their name. But as of now I'm sticking by it. I care, but I care more about treating everyone equally than focusing on a single issue.
Disclaimer: I have no reason to call anyone either an asshole or a loon at this point. If it came across like I am, you either need to learn to read, or I need to learn to write.
Signed: uncaring asshole
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I believe that waging "holy wars" on anything actually diminishes the issue that should be solved.
Well, that's true. But "closing your eyes and ears" and "coming out as a rampant feminazi lunatic" are not the only two options to approach it.
It is an issue, we should be aware of it and try to approach women in IT, but we shouldn't scream bloody murder whenever a male is employed.
Filed under: you asshole
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I believe that waging "holy wars" on anything actually diminishes the issue that should be solved.
Calling it a holy war also diminshes an issue. ;)I often see non-arguments like "they're just so angry!" Well, duh. Of course they are. Everything they say gets trivalized or talked over. Let them be angry.
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I'm not saying there's not an issue at this point, but I think the best way to treat is as a non-issue.
We've discussed this concept before, though mostly relating to race. To quote John Roberts (Chief Justice of the US Supreme Court), "The way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race."
Others think that the problems are so awful and so ingrained that we have to actively work in the other direction. I think there's truth to both sides. There's nothing wrong with encouraging and figuring out why fewer women go into IT, but assuming bad faith on the part of the IT industry just pisses off the people unfairly accused and becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. Or something analogous to ancient ethnic feuds.
Most of us are focused on doing our jobs, and aren't trying to create an old boys network. OTOH, the push for inclusion certainly can backfire. Hands down, the worst person on my team is a woman, and many of us wish we could get rid of her. Not because she's a she, but because she's incompetent. There are reasons we can't, that don't really have to do with her sex, and there are other women on the team who are productive members. But I can't understand how she got to where she is except for some wishful thinking on the part of hiring managers who wanted either some extra X chromosomes or possibly some racial diversity (she's not white).
Filed Under: Now call me racist and sexist because you're an idiot
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I agree that the balance lies somewhere in the middle. But since I haven't figured out how "the middle", if there is one, is supposed to work I'm gonna stay on what would some call "passive" or "not caring" side for the moment.
There's nothing wrong with encouraging and figuring out why fewer women go into IT, but assuming bad faith on the part of the IT industry just pisses off the people unfairly accused and becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.
Nothing wrong with that at all, however:
OTOH, the push for inclusion certainly can backfire.
This is the thing I see the most. I think the problem is that whoever is marketing any kind of positive action (is that what we call it these days?) mostly does it in a way that's either too aggressive towards the target audience (Go into IT, the future of womankind depends on it) or lean towards sexism on the other side (You bad men won't let women join). Whether that's the intent or just poor marketing is up for debate, but that's how it looks like on the surface.
Honestly, I can concede to most of the points raised here. We disagree on the methods, and ultimately that might be for the best. Let activists stay active, but have people who can look at the situation differently close to stop them from pushing too much and ruining their image.
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I've actually worked with a few women, and they have mostly been brilliant (thankfully, my company is pretty good about getting rid of incompetent people fairly fast). I've also worked with the type akin to "He laughed at the word dongle; he's an evil misogynist and needs to be fired!" At one previous job, I was in the boss's office, and this woman was standing by the door to ask the boss a question. Another employee came in the door, and the door knob hit her in the ass (of which I witnessed). He was fired later that day for sexual harassment (this was not as a software developer, it was actually a much more male dominated job).
Point is, complaining about the things you supposedly aren't allowed to do because of your gender, and then using your gender to discredit/harm someone else makes you pretty hypocritical. I agree with @boomzilla and @ChiefJusticeRoberts here; unfair advantages are just as damaging as unfair disadvantages.
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It's easy to shrug and play dumb, like @abarker
I wasn't shrugging and playing dumb. I was simply restricting my comments to the issue that was being discussed at the time: the lack of contribution on TDWTF from women. I was pointing out that the lack of contribution on this site from women probably has more to do with the lack of women in IT fields. Apparently, you read my comments in the context of what the conversation became after that, which gives the wrong impression.
You're right, many, if not most, of those working in IT are contributing to making technical fields unwelcoming to women. I also believe that many women who would be great in STEM fields shy away from them because the perception is worse than the reality.
For example, there's an accountant I work with who has great technical skills, but never became a programmer because her father told her she wouldn't fit in. Any time the accounting department needs something coded or debugged, she's our point of contact, because she very nearly understands the technical-lingo. If she'd had the appropriate training, I believe she would make an excellent programmer. But her father scared her off. I wish it wasn't the case, but it's too late for me to change things for her. So all I can do is try to make her interactions with IT easy, help her see that things aren't as bad as her dad said, and maybe her daughter will grow up to join our ranks.
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I was pointing out that the lack of contribution on this site from women probably has more to do with the lack of women in IT fields.
This is true.Apparently, you read my comments in the context of what the conversation became after that, which gives the wrong impression.
This is probably true.
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Filed Under: Now call me racist and sexist because you're an idiot
You're racist and sexist because I'm an idiot!
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Filed Under: Send one dollar to
Happy Dudeboomzilla
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Filed Under: Send one dollar to <s>Happy Dude</s> boomzilla
Sorry, Simon didn't say.
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@DrakeSmith, I thought that was just about racism...
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I hear if you try more than 3 JavaScripts at the same time you can die from alcohol blood poisoning.
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Well this is annoying! YouTube allows you to speficy timestamps using 10m30s format but only supports seconds on their embedded player. I just had to write something to translate x minutes y seconds into seconds just for youtube to work! It's been checked into master though, so on the next update this should work.
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@eviltrout Thanks for fixing the bug.
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Back to Topic!
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Others think that the problems are so awful and so ingrained that we have to actively work in the other direction. I think there's truth to both sides. There's nothing wrong with encouraging and figuring out why fewer women go into IT, but assuming bad faith on the part of the IT industry just pisses off the people unfairly accused and becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. Or something analogous to ancient ethnic feuds.
When we last discussed this, I brought up an example from personal experience where discrimination, harassment and "unwelcome environment" could all be ruled out, but there was still a glaring discrepancy. I'll share it again for the benefit of those who weren't around last time. In the early 90s I joined an amateur orchestra in the Boston area. It was immediately apparent that I was the only African-American there. That struck me as odd for a moment, then I remembered that it was explicitly written in their bylaws that there were no auditions, so that ruled out discrimination. I decided that if the lack of representation was anyone's fault, it wasn't the fault of anyone who was there. I stayed for 2 full seasons, made a few friends, and was on a couple of occasions invited to play chamber music with the other orchestra members.
That said, often policies end up having results that are incompatible with their stated goals. When that happens consistently, there are two possible conclusions. You could say that the policy makers are stupid or incompetent, and I wouldn't disagree. But also consider the possibility that the actual results were really the actual goal all along. There's a group of people who have a vested interest in inequality continuing to be a problem.
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When that happens consistently, there are two possible conclusions. You could say that the policy makers are stupid or incompetent, and I wouldn't disagree. But also consider the possibility that the actual results were really the actual goal all along. There's a group of people who have a vested interest in inequality continuing to be a problem.
It could also be that the unintended consequences aren't easily predicted or avoided. Sometimes, shit just happens or a situation sucks without a great way to make it better.
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You can say that the first time, but the tendency over the last 20-30 years has been to double down on whatever hasn't worked yet.
XML (substitute failed policy here) is like violence. If it isn't solving your problem yet, you're not using enough of it.
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You can say that the first time, but the tendency over the last 20-30 years has been to double down on whatever hasn't worked yet.
Could be. I'm sort of giving the people who say the biases are not explicit but embedded into institutions the benefit of the doubt here, as I think they sometimes have a case. But often you'd end up throwing out the baby with the bath water.
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throwing out the baby with the bath water
Yeah but don't the democrats like killing babies? /sarcasm
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Yeah but don't the democrats like killing babies? /sarcasm
Filed Under: Inappropriate sarcasm
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Yeah but don't the democrats like killing babies?
That's a common misconception. We only kill babies at rallies to demonstrate our commitment to the Party. We don't particularly like it; at least, not all of us.
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Yeah but don't the democrats like killing babies? /sarcasm
Yup. And then they give them to the atheists.
Filed under: time for a sandwich
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You can say that the first time, but the tendency over the last 20-30 years has been to double down on whatever hasn't worked yet.
XML (substitute failed policy here) is like violence. If it isn't solving your problem yet, you're not using enough of it.
Actually, when used in the correct context, XML works quite well. The problem is when people try to apply it to situations that it wasn't made for. Or when they just don't know what they are doing.
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Sure, but what would you say if they continued to use XML, or used more of it, when the initial effort didn't achieve the required results?
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Offer them a wooden table?
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Don't forget the camera.
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The problem is when people try to apply it to situations that it wasn't made for. Or when they just don't know what they are doing.
Basis for most code WTFs (not PHB WTFs, which is 90% of what this site is now).
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Yes, and tell them their policy is FILE_NOT_FOUND.
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Sexual dimorphism - Wikipedia
