Early filing penalty



  • I just can't for the life of me fathom the design decisions that would result in a system like this.  Transcript below in case it is unreadable.


    Electronically filed documents received by the Clerk's Office between 8:30 a.m. and 11:59 p.m. on a day the courthouse is open for court business, unless rejected by the Clerk's Office, shall be deemed filed that day.  Electronically filed documents received by the Clerk's Office between 12:00 a.m. and 8:29 a.m. on a day the courthouse is open for court business, unless rejected by the Clerk's Office, shall be deemed filed the next day.



  •  Lawyers.

    Next topic.



  • @Pascal said:

    I just can't for the life of me fathom the design decisions that would result in a system like this. 
    Maybe this.



  • @Pascal said:

    Electronically filed documents received by the Clerk's Office between 8:30 a.m. and 11:59 p.m. on a day the courthouse is open for court business, unless rejected by the Clerk's Office, shall be deemed filed that day.  Electronically filed documents received by the Clerk's Office between 12:00 a.m. and 8:29 a.m. on a day the courthouse is open for court business, unless rejected by the Clerk's Office, shall be deemed filed the next day.
     

    Summary for the common folk:

    1.  If it's late, it's on time.

    2.  If it's early, it's late.



  • @da Doctah said:

    @Pascal said:

    Electronically filed documents received by the Clerk's Office between 8:30 a.m. and 11:59 p.m. on a day the courthouse is open for court business, unless rejected by the Clerk's Office, shall be deemed filed that day.  Electronically filed documents received by the Clerk's Office between 12:00 a.m. and 8:29 a.m. on a day the courthouse is open for court business, unless rejected by the Clerk's Office, shall be deemed filed the next day.
     

    Summary for the common folk:

    1.  If it's late, it's on time.

    2.  If it's early, it's late.


    INFOGRAPHIC for the ALL CAPS THE WORD INFOGRAPHIC crowd:

    • 08:30-23:59 Monday - counts as Monday
    • 00:00-08:29 Tuesday - counts as Wednesday
    • 08:30-23:59 Tuesday - counts as Tuesday
    • 00:00-08:29 Wednesday - counts as Thursday
    • 08:30-23:59 Wednesday - counts as Wednesday
    • 00:00-08:29 Thursday - counts as Friday
    • 08:30-23:59 Thursday - counts as Thursday
    • 00:00-08:29 Friday - counts as Monday of the following week
    • 08:30-23:59 Friday - counts as Friday
    • 00:00-23:59 Saturday - undefined behavior
    • 00:00-23:59 Sunday - undefined behavior
    • 00:00-08:29 Monday - counts as Tuesday


  • @El_Heffe said:

    @Pascal said:

    I just can't for the life of me fathom the design decisions that would result in a system like this. 
    Maybe this.

    Clearly the inspiration for this.



  • Badly written.

    If it is timestamped before midnight, it counts for today. If timestamped after midnight, it counts for tomorrow (which is what it would then be). Which is what you would expect. Really, that entire paragraph should be erased.



  • @El_Heffe said:

    Maybe this.

    Food must be brought in from outside, because you can’t have an open flame in a mine.

    What, they’ve never heard of electric cookers or microwave ovens?

    Oh, and this gem:

    “I used to chase people for months — literally — for one signature on one piece of paper. You want to talk about an egregious waste of taxpayer money?” recalled one worker who left the mine recently and declined to be named because of fears of retribution.

    (…)

    The worker’s new job: setting off explosives.

    Because there’s hundreds of former filing clerks from that mine who now “blasts holes in the ground for oil and gas wells.” Surely nobody will be able to identify him.

    OTOH, why is he scared of retribution anyway? He’s the one with the explosives …



  • @Gurth said:

    Oh, and this gem:

    “I used to chase people for months — literally — for one signature on one piece of paper. You want to talk about an egregious waste of taxpayer money?” recalled one worker who left the mine recently and declined to be named because of fears of retribution.

    (…)

    The worker’s new job: setting off explosives.

    Because there’s hundreds of former filing clerks from that mine who now “blasts holes in the ground for oil and gas wells.” Surely nobody will be able to identify him.

    OTOH, why is he scared of retribution anyway? He’s the one with the explosives …

    because retribution includes technicalities taking away the rights to the explosives

     



  • @robbak said:

    Badly written.

    If it is timestamped before midnight, it counts for today. If timestamped after midnight, it counts for tomorrow (which is what it would then be). Which is what you would expect. Really, that entire paragraph should be erased.

    That's what I safely(?) assumed as well.



  • @Pascal said:

    Electronically filed documents received by the Clerk's Office between 8:30 a.m. and 11:59 p.m. on a day the courthouse is open for court business, unless rejected by the Clerk's Office, shall be deemed filed that day.  Electronically filed documents received by the Clerk's Office between 12:00 a.m. and 8:29 a.m. on a day the courthouse is open for court business, unless rejected by the Clerk's Office, shall be deemed filed the next day.



    Makes sense to me. The key point here is a grammatical one. Basically where it says the "next day," there's an implication of the next business day; which starts at 8:30. So if you file at midnight, it's the current business day, and after midnight, it's the next business day.

     


  • mod

    @Ben L. said:

    @da Doctah said:
    @Pascal said:
    Electronically filed documents received by the Clerk's Office between 8:30 a.m. and 11:59 p.m. on a day the courthouse is open for court business, unless rejected by the Clerk's Office, shall be deemed filed that day. Electronically filed documents received by the Clerk's Office between 12:00 a.m. and 8:29 a.m. on a day the courthouse is open for court business, unless rejected by the Clerk's Office, shall be deemed filed the next day.

    Summary for the common folk:

    1. If it's late, it's on time.

    2. If it's early, it's late.


    ...

    • 00:00-23:59 Saturday - undefined behavior
    • 00:00-23:59 Sunday - undefined behavior
    ...
    Actually, it is defined. you just didn't read it the original text in the image: @Original Image said:
    Electronically filed documents received on a day the courthouse is CLOSED for court business (weekends and court holidays), unless rejected by the Clerk's Office, shall be deemed filed the next day the courthouse is open for business.

    So:

    • 00:00-23:59 Saturday - counts as Monday (assuming Monday isn't a court holiday)
    • 00:00-23:59 Sunday - counts as Monday (assuming Monday isn't a court holiday)


  • @abarker said:

    @Ben L. said:
    @da Doctah said:
    @Pascal said:
    Electronically filed documents received by the Clerk's Office between 8:30 a.m. and 11:59 p.m. on a day the courthouse is open for court business, unless rejected by the Clerk's Office, shall be deemed filed that day. Electronically filed documents received by the Clerk's Office between 12:00 a.m. and 8:29 a.m. on a day the courthouse is open for court business, unless rejected by the Clerk's Office, shall be deemed filed the next day.

    Summary for the common folk:

    1. If it's late, it's on time.

    2. If it's early, it's late.


    ...

    • 00:00-23:59 Saturday - undefined behavior
    • 00:00-23:59 Sunday - undefined behavior
    ...
    Actually, it is defined. you just didn't read it the original text in the image: @Original Image said:
    Electronically filed documents received on a day the courthouse is CLOSED for court business (weekends and court holidays), unless rejected by the Clerk's Office, shall be deemed filed the next day the courthouse is open for business.

    So:

    • 00:00-23:59 Saturday - counts as Monday (assuming Monday isn't a court holiday)
    • 00:00-23:59 Sunday - counts as Monday (assuming Monday isn't a court holiday)
    They still get to make demons fly out of your nose if the Clerk's Office rejects it, right?

  • mod

    @Ben L. said:

    @abarker said:
    @Ben L. said:
    @da Doctah said:
    @Pascal said:
    Electronically filed documents received by the Clerk's Office between 8:30 a.m. and 11:59 p.m. on a day the courthouse is open for court business, unless rejected by the Clerk's Office, shall be deemed filed that day. Electronically filed documents received by the Clerk's Office between 12:00 a.m. and 8:29 a.m. on a day the courthouse is open for court business, unless rejected by the Clerk's Office, shall be deemed filed the next day.

    Summary for the common folk:

    1. If it's late, it's on time.

    2. If it's early, it's late.


    ...

    • 00:00-23:59 Saturday - undefined behavior
    • 00:00-23:59 Sunday - undefined behavior
    ...
    Actually, it is defined. you just didn't read it the original text in the image: @Original Image said:
    Electronically filed documents received on a day the courthouse is CLOSED for court business (weekends and court holidays), unless rejected by the Clerk's Office, shall be deemed filed the next day the courthouse is open for business.

    So:

    • 00:00-23:59 Saturday - counts as Monday (assuming Monday isn't a court holiday)
    • 00:00-23:59 Sunday - counts as Monday (assuming Monday isn't a court holiday)
    They still get to make demons fly out of your nose if the Clerk's Office rejects it, right?
    Undefined.


  • The clerk arrives in the office at 8:00AM and spends 30 minutes working through the backlog.  In those 30 minutes, he or she gets approximately 1 day worth of tickets processed (mostly because anything 2 days old raises alarms to his boss).  

    Once 8:30 rolls around, an influx of new tickets begins and the clerk begins processing them in real time, ignoring the remaining backlogged items until the next morning.



  • @Snooder said:

    @Pascal said:

    Electronically filed documents received by the Clerk's Office between 8:30 a.m. and 11:59 p.m. on a day the courthouse is open for court business, unless rejected by the Clerk's Office, shall be deemed filed that day.  Electronically filed documents received by the Clerk's Office between 12:00 a.m. and 8:29 a.m. on a day the courthouse is open for court business, unless rejected by the Clerk's Office, shall be deemed filed the next day.



    Makes sense to me. The key point here is a grammatical one. Basically where it says the "next day," there's an implication of the next business day; which starts at 8:30. So if you file at midnight, it's the current business day, and after midnight, it's the next business day.

     

    Maybe that's what they intended, but that's not what it says.

     It says that if you file at 08:29 on Tuesday, it will be considered to have been filed on Wednesday ("the next day").  But if you file at 08:30 on Tuesday, it will be considered to have been filed on that day (Tuesday).

     



  • @El_Heffe said:

    @Snooder said:

    @Pascal said:

    Electronically filed documents received by the Clerk's Office between 8:30 a.m. and 11:59 p.m. on a day the courthouse is open for court business, unless rejected by the Clerk's Office, shall be deemed filed that day.  Electronically filed documents received by the Clerk's Office between 12:00 a.m. and 8:29 a.m. on a day the courthouse is open for court business, unless rejected by the Clerk's Office, shall be deemed filed the next day.



    Makes sense to me. The key point here is a grammatical one. Basically where it says the "next day," there's an implication of the next business day; which starts at 8:30. So if you file at midnight, it's the current business day, and after midnight, it's the next business day.

     

    Maybe that's what they intended, but that's not what it says.

     It says that if you file at 08:29 on Tuesday, it will be considered to have been filed on Wednesday ("the next day").  But if you file at 08:30 on Tuesday, it will be considered to have been filed on that day (Tuesday).

     

    Key concept here is "business day". The boundary between business days is not midnight, but the time of opening for business. For a business that opens at 8:30, 8:29 on what any normal person would think of as Tuesday is still a business Monday.

    The stated rule is there to make sure the Clerk's Office deems documents that have been submitted on a particular calendar day to have been filed on the business day with the same name. This is exactly what anybody unfamiliar with the concept of business days, which is most of us, would expect. But it was quite clearly written by somebody to whom the idea of a business day makes perfect sense and seems like the natural way to think about dates.



  • @flabdablet said:

    Key concept here is "business day". The boundary between business days is not midnight, but the time of opening for business. For a business that opens at 8:30, 8:29 on what any normal person would think of as Tuesday is still a business Monday.

    The stated rule is there to make sure the Clerk's Office deems documents that have been submitted on a particular calendar day to have been filed on the business day with the same name. This is exactly what anybody unfamiliar with the concept of business days, which is most of us, would expect. But it was quite clearly written by somebody to whom the idea of a business day makes perfect sense and seems like the natural way to think about dates.

    I read this and thought "WTF?" but when I read it again it I found it makes sense and is helpful. (This also made me think "WTF?" but that says more about this forum than this post.)



  • @Gurth said:

    Because there’s hundreds of former filing clerks from that mine who now “blasts holes in the ground for oil and gas wells.” Surely nobody will be able to identify him.
     

    Depends, on what cabinet they keep their piromaniac-ex-eployee file? I bet they'll need years just to locate it.



  • @RTapeLoadingError said:

    @flabdablet said:

    Key concept here is "business day". The boundary between business days is not midnight, but the time of opening for business. For a business that opens at 8:30, 8:29 on what any normal person would think of as Tuesday is still a business Monday.

    The stated rule is there to make sure the Clerk's Office deems documents that have been submitted on a particular calendar day to have been filed on the business day with the same name. This is exactly what anybody unfamiliar with the concept of business days, which is most of us, would expect. But it was quite clearly written by somebody to whom the idea of a business day makes perfect sense and seems like the natural way to think about dates.

    I read this and thought "WTF?" but when I read it again it I found it makes sense and is helpful. (This also made me think "WTF?" but that says more about this forum than this post.)



    Heh, you think that's odd? The filing deadline for an answer to a complaint in Texas is "the Monday next after expiration of twenty days from the date of service". Admittedly, it becomes real easy to remember after a while. But man, when you first see it, you just go WTF?

     


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @Snooder said:

    Heh, you think that's odd? The filing deadline for an answer to a complaint in Texas is "the Monday next after expiration of twenty days from the date of service". Admittedly, it becomes real easy to remember after a while. But man, when you first see it, you just go WTF?


    Get sued a lot?



  • @Snooder said:

    The filing deadline for an answer to a complaint in Texas is "the Monday next after expiration of twenty days from the date of service".

    Days or business days?



  • @RTapeLoadingError said:

    @Snooder said:
    The filing deadline for an answer to a complaint in Texas is "the Monday next after expiration of twenty days from the date of service".

    Days or business days?

    IIRC the twenty days includes holidays and weekends..

     



  • @Snooder said:

    @RTapeLoadingError said:

    @Snooder said:
    The filing deadline for an answer to a complaint in Texas is "the Monday next after expiration of twenty days from the date of service".

    Days or business days?

    IIRC the twenty days includes holidays and weekends..

    Pedantic mode activated.

    Evaluating...

    Searching for further ambuguities...

    Match found: line1, character 4: "Monday" might not be a working day.

    Suggestions: The day of, or the next working day after (the Monday next after (expiration of twenty days from the date of service))

     



  • @LoremIpsumDolorSitAmet said:

    Match found: line1, character 4: "Monday" might not be a working day.

    Suggestions: The day of, or the next working day after (the Monday next after (expiration of twenty days from the date of service))

    Given that this is the judicial system, the onus is on the respondent to file timely, and unpleasant things may happen if the respondent fails to do so, it would be safer to assume:
    The day of, or the last working day prior to (the Monday next after (expiration of twenty days from the date of service))



  • @RTapeLoadingError said:

    @Snooder said:
    The filing deadline for an answer to a complaint in Texas is "the Monday next after expiration of twenty days from the date of service".

    Days or business days?

    If Texas runs the same rules as the office in the OP, that wouldn't matter.


  •  Looking pretty good. This is starting to resemble an Excel formula. Can we perhaps add in some conditional IFs relating to Christmas and holiday seasons?



  • @LoremIpsumDolorSitAmet said:

    @Snooder said:

    @RTapeLoadingError said:

    @Snooder said:
    The filing deadline for an answer to a complaint in Texas is "the Monday next after expiration of twenty days from the date of service".

    Days or business days?

    IIRC the twenty days includes holidays and weekends..

    Pedantic mode activated.

    Evaluating...

    Searching for further ambuguities...

    Match found: line1, character 4: "Monday" might not be a working day.

    Suggestions: The day of, or the next working day after (the Monday next after (expiration of twenty days from the date of service))



    Actually, IIRC it would go all the way to the next Monday that is a working day. It's been a couple of years. I just remember the phrase and the finer points elude me at the moment. I have them in my notes somewhere.

     

    Also, I'm pretty sure most lawyers just use a calender application and don't actually bother calculating the damn thing by hand every time.



  • @Snooder said:

    The filing deadline for an answer to a complaint in Texas is "the Monday next after expiration of twenty days from the date of service". Admittedly, it becomes real easy to remember after a while. But man, when you first see it, you just go WTF?
    Is that what you did the first time you saw the first Sunday after the full moon following the March equinox?


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @da Doctah said:

    @Snooder said:

    The filing deadline for an answer to a complaint in Texas is "the Monday next after expiration of twenty days from the date of service". Admittedly, it becomes real easy to remember after a while. But man, when you first see it, you just go WTF?
    Is that what you did the first time you saw the first Sunday after the full moon following the March equinox?

    That's what I did the first time I saw it. WTF does Easter have to do with full moons and the spring equinox? Sounds suspiciously like astrology...


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @PedanticCurmudgeon said:

    WTF does Easter have to do with full moons and the spring equinox?
    The date is computed relative to the date the Jewish religious new year, but with two thousand years of disagreements over how exactly you go about calculating that. Remember, the people who want to calculate the date of Easter want to use the rules in place back then, as opposed to the current ones, and all adjusted for the fact that there's been several calendrical reforms since then.

    It's a bodge. Everything to do with dates and times is a bodge, but Easter is a bigger bodge than most.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    Good job of simultaneously answering my question and entirely missing the point.



  • @PedanticCurmudgeon said:

    @da Doctah said:

    @Snooder said:

    The filing deadline for an answer to a complaint in Texas is "the Monday next after expiration of twenty days from the date of service". Admittedly, it becomes real easy to remember after a while. But man, when you first see it, you just go WTF?
    Is that what you did the first time you saw the first Sunday after the full moon following the March equinox?

    That's what I did the first time I saw it. WTF does Easter have to do with full moons and the spring equinox? Sounds suspiciously like astrology...


    Easter is, at its base, a holiday intended to celebrate the spring equinox. Every agrarian culture has one, since it coincides with the planting season. Why the full moon? I'm not sure, but probably just to make sure that any nightime revelries have plenty of light. Since getting shitfaced in pitch blackness is a recipe for bad things, while if you can at least see a few steps in front, you have less accidents. Also, it's nice to be able to see whoever you are having sex with, and getting laid has always been a big part of spring time rituals.

     



  • @Snooder said:

    Easter is, at its base, a holiday intended to celebrate the spring equinox. Every agrarian culture has one, since it coincides with the planting season. Why the full moon? I'm not sure, but probably just to make sure that any nightime revelries have plenty of light. Since getting shitfaced in pitch blackness is a recipe for bad things, while if you can at least see a few steps in front, you have less accidents. Also, it's nice to be able to see whoever you are having sex with, and getting laid has always been a big part of spring time rituals.
     

    Oh, so that's what "he is risen" is about!



  • @da Doctah said:

    @Snooder said:
    Easter is, at its base, a holiday intended to celebrate the spring equinox. Every agrarian culture has one, since it coincides with the planting season. Why the full moon? I'm not sure, but probably just to make sure that any nightime revelries have plenty of light. Since getting shitfaced in pitch blackness is a recipe for bad things, while if you can at least see a few steps in front, you have less accidents. Also, it's nice to be able to see whoever you are having sex with, and getting laid has always been a big part of spring time rituals.
     

    Oh, so that's what "he is risen" is about!

    If they only get it once a year, I can understand why they'd be so eager to get the date right.

     


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @Snooder said:

    Easter is, at its base, a holiday intended to celebrate the spring equinox. Every agrarian culture has one, since it coincides with the planting season. Why the full moon? I'm not sure, but probably just to make sure that any nightime revelries have plenty of light. Since getting shitfaced in pitch blackness is a recipe for bad things, while if you can at least see a few steps in front, you have less accidents. Also, it's nice to be able to see whoever you are having sex with, and getting laid has always been a big part of spring time rituals.
    This should be a fun thread if any fundamentalist Christians show up.



  • @da Doctah said:

    @Snooder said:

    Easter is, at its base, a holiday intended to celebrate the spring equinox. Every agrarian culture has one, since it coincides with the planting season. Why the full moon? I'm not sure, but probably just to make sure that any nightime revelries have plenty of light. Since getting shitfaced in pitch blackness is a recipe for bad things, while if you can at least see a few steps in front, you have less accidents. Also, it's nice to be able to see whoever you are having sex with, and getting laid has always been a big part of spring time rituals.
     

    Oh, so that's what "he is risen" is about!

    Well, he did rise for Mary Magdalene and we all know what she did...

     


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @Snooder said:

    Why the full moon?
    In a true pre-literate agrarian culture, the moon is what you have to measure the year with. These days, we use atomic-coupled clocks with Snoopy on the front.@Snooder said:
    Also, it's nice to be able to see whoever you are having sex with
    The way I hear it, it's nice to see where the alcohol is up until the point where you can't see whoever it is you're about to have sex with. Or at least not and have a lasting memory of it the following day…



  • @da Doctah said:

    @Snooder said:

    Easter is, at its base, a holiday intended to celebrate the spring equinox. Every agrarian culture has one, since it coincides with the planting season. Why the full moon? I'm not sure, but probably just to make sure that any nightime revelries have plenty of light. Since getting shitfaced in pitch blackness is a recipe for bad things, while if you can at least see a few steps in front, you have less accidents. Also, it's nice to be able to see whoever you are having sex with, and getting laid has always been a big part of spring time rituals.
     

    Oh, so that's what "he is risen" is about!


    Is he Risen?


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