Changes at TDWTF: Goodbye Community Server



  • [img]http://i.imgur.com/PFtiIjH.png[/img]

    Perfectly possible in Discourse, though. That, to me, is one of the biggest issues with Markdown- too many different implementations with their own approaches to things.



  • @Remy Porter said:

    Perfectly possible in Discourse, though. That, to me, is one of the biggest issues with Markdown- too many different implementations with their own approaches to things.

    Markdown is like the culmination of everything that's wrong with developers. Just when the internet FINALLY gets reliable rich-text, WYSIWYG editing in every browser on every site, suddenly some nerd in a basement somewhere goes, "WYSIWYG? TOO EASY!!!" and invents this more difficult-to-use, less reliable, less functional alternative. Did he test it against real-world users? No. Apparently according to Remy here, he didn't even bother to write a fucking spec sites could follow. (Or he wrote a vague CSS1.0-esque spec that you could misinterpret in 47 different ways.) And because all developers are awful people, it actually starts getting popular!!! WHY!?!? Why is this shit used in Github? Why is this shit used in Discourse? Why is it used anywhere???

    Just put in a fucking STANDARD NORMAL EDITOR like every fucking site had 5 years ago before this Markdown bullshit started spreading like a plague in the first place. Like Community Server had! Look: you're actually replacing one of the features of Community Server with something somehow WORSE! You wouldn't think that would be possible, but here we are in the IT landscape of 2014: the universe of shit.

    Anyway, that ranting aside, the rich text editor in Discourse works reasonably well, even if it isn't WYSIWYG because we've been transported back in time to 1982 which is the last time that kind of bullshit was acceptable apparently. So I could tolerate it.

    I don't want my images rehosted, and I don't want infinite scrolling. The editor I could tolerate.


  • Trolleybus Mechanic

    @blakeyrat said:

    Markdown is like the culmination of everything that's wrong with developers...
     

    Oh I LOVE it when people hijack threads...

    @blakeyrat said:

    I don't want my images rehosted, and I don't want infinite scrolling.

     Infinite scrolling: agreed.

    Images-- I know the Upload button fucks up the image, but can't you just drop an image tag manually?  [img="http://blakey.example.com/butts.jpg"]  Unless Discource's various inputs don't allow manually tagging, in  which case... wtf?

     



  • @blakeyrat said:

    Just when the internet FINALLY gets reliable rich-text, WYSIWYG editing in every browser on every site

    In what universe was [i]that[/i]? I have yet to find a web based rich text editor that isn't a complete POS. I've built applications where we used rich text editing, and it's always been a miserable experience and routinely jacks up my formatting worse than Word does. In any case, Markdown was never released as a spec- it was a set of Perl scripts that one guy made and used to publish content on his blog. He released the scripts, other people liked them, and Markdown became popular as a result. The main reason Markdown is popular is that it lets you format content in the way people naturally format content when writing in plain text- strong and emphasized text fall out naturally, links are convenient.

    In any case, this discussion is academic, since the same editor also supports BBCode, just like Community Server, so for all intents and purposes, you've lost nothing and gained a live preview.



  • Also, I've checked. [img]http://i.imgur.com/aFhcKfz.png[/img] Discourse doesn't rehost images if you use BBCode.



  • @Lorne Kates said:

    @blakeyrat said:

    Markdown is like the culmination of everything that's wrong with developers...
     

    Oh I LOVE it when people hijack threads...

    @blakeyrat said:

    I don't want my images rehosted, and I don't want infinite scrolling.

     Infinite scrolling: agreed.

    Images-- I know the Upload button fucks up the image, but can't you just drop an image tag manually?  [img="http://blakey.example.com/butts.jpg"]  Unless Discource's various inputs don't allow manually tagging, in  which case... wtf?

     


    I wonder if there's a place you could figure that out...

    Hint: putting the address of something embeddable on its own line embeds it. YouTube, Wikipedia, TIME, Twitter, random jpegs...


  • Trolleybus Mechanic

    @Ben L. said:

    Hint: putting the address of something embeddable on its own line embeds it. YouTube, Wikipedia, TIME, Twitter, random jpegs...
     

    Worst idea ever.

    Here's a NSFW Goatse/Vladimir Putin slash cartoon someone posted, it's hillarious: http://youtube.com?v=78jd98&0-_8s  (don't worry just the link so you don't all get your eyes fried and lose your job lol)



  • @Remy Porter said:

    The main reason Markdown is popular is that it lets you format content in the way people naturally format content when writing in plain text

    People don't "naturally" do that, only geeks do.


  • Trolleybus Mechanic

    @blakeyrat said:

    People don't "naturally" do that, only geeks do.
     

    Doing *bold* and _underscore_ actually extends beyond geekdom. Lots of authors, writers, etc do it. Mainly because there's lots of places that, when you submit a manuscript to them, they don't want the text pre-formatted.  They want it marked up so the typesetter can easily see the formatting that needs to happen. *bold*, _underline_.

    Sometimes the author's definition of bold isn't the same as the typesetters. Sometimes the bold is too faint for the typesetter to actually notice.

    This, of course, all comes from pre-electronic document days. Habits that still linger. electronic documents that still get printed and re-entered by hand.



  • @Medezark said:

    Will the thread that cannot be named over in Funny Stuff be carried over, or will it finally die the agonizing death it has inflicted on others?
    I was wondering that, too. However, that thread serves a useful purpose; we need somewhere the primary contributor to that thread can post without bothering the rest of us. Currently, the insanity (well, that particular insanity, anyway) is (self-)confined to that thread, and the rest of us can ignore it (or poke him with a sharp stick, if so inclined). If that thread is allowed to die, who knows where he'll start posting?



  • @Lorne Kates said:

    Doing *bold* and _underscore_ actually extends beyond geekdom. Lots of authors, writers, etc do it. Mainly because there's lots of places that, when you submit a manuscript to them, they don't want the text pre-formatted.  They want it marked up so the typesetter can easily see the formatting that needs to happen.

    That is where the formatting came from historically, but based on how much historical precedent pisses off blakey I don't see this being a good way to argue about markdown with him.


  • Trolleybus Mechanic

    @locallunatic said:

    That is where the formatting came from historically, but based on how much historical precedent pisses off blakey I don't see this being a good way to argue about markdown with him.
     

    I'm not arguing for or against Markdown. I'm refuting the "it's only used by geeks" (the implication being Computer Linux Autstic Basement Geeks).  It isn't. They didn't even come up with it.


  • Trolleybus Mechanic

     Additional feature request: Email notifications for all new post replies should be in the exact same format as they currently are.


    From: TDWTF Forums - Automated Email <use-the-contact-form@thedailywtf.com>
    To: %user_email%
    Subject:%Thread Title%

    Body
    [Hyperlink to reply]%Post Title%[/hyperlink

    [small font]by %user%:[/small font]

    %Post Body%

    I read about 90% of the forum in Conversation Mode in Gmail.  I generally only click through if there's a ton of replies, or I want to click through to save it for later, or there's some weird CS shit to look at (which will soon be replaced by Weird D Shit to look At).

    I don't just want the standard forum "A new reply has been posted".  I don't want the body to be "here's a bunch of random stupid garbage shit from a template... %first 5 words of reply...%  END OF MESSAGE WITH NO HYPERLINK TO JUMP DIRECTLY TO REPLY".

     



  • @Lorne Kates said:

     Additional feature request: Email notifications for all new post replies should be in the exact same format as they currently are.


    From: TDWTF Forums - Automated Email <use-the-contact-form@thedailywtf.com>
    To: %user_email%
    Subject:%Thread Title%

    Body
    [Hyperlink to reply]%Post Title%[/hyperlink

    [small font]by %user%:[/small font]

    %Post Body%

    I read about 90% of the forum in Conversation Mode in Gmail.  I generally only click through if there's a ton of replies, or I want to click through to save it for later, or there's some weird CS shit to look at (which will soon be replaced by Weird D Shit to look At).

    I don't just want the standard forum "A new reply has been posted".  I don't want the body to be "here's a bunch of random stupid garbage shit from a template... %first 5 words of reply...%  END OF MESSAGE WITH NO HYPERLINK TO JUMP DIRECTLY TO REPLY".

     


    Discourse has much better emails than CS. None of that "oh look your emails only get threaded because they happen to have similar titles." It contains the message, as posted, plus any related posts in the topic, and there's an option to receive emails from popular threads if you want that in addition to the threads you've posted to or been mentioned in.

    There's also the fact that it'll only email you if you aren't currently reading the thread on the forum.


  • Trolleybus Mechanic

    @Ben L. said:

    Discourse has much better emails than CS. None of that "oh look your emails only get threaded because they happen to have similar titles."

    oooookay. That's only an issue when CS munges the title with Re: at random, but okay.

    @Ben L. said:

    It contains the message, as posted

    Yes...

    @Ben L. said:

    , plus any related posts in the topic

    No. Why would I want that? If there are related posts, they'll be Quoted.  Or they will already be in the email thread.

    @Ben L. said:

    , and there's an option to receive emails from popular threads if you want that in addition to the threads you've posted to or been mentioned in.

    No, that's what forum subscriptions are for.

    @Ben L. said:

    There's also the fact that it'll only email you if you aren't currently reading the thread on the forum.
     

    Fuck no. I accidentally leave a tab open, and I don't get emails? How the fuck does that even work? Is there some dumbass Javascript shit that is constantly pinging back to the server to do analytics on me? Fuck that.

     



  • @Lorne Kates said:

    @Ben L. said:
    , plus any related posts in the topic
    No. Why would I want that? If there are related posts, they'll be Quoted.  Or they will already be in the email thread.
    What does "related" mean? In theory, every post in the thread is related. Does that mean each email contains the whole ^$%&%$# thread? @Lorne Kates said:
    @Ben L. said:
    , and there's an option to receive emails from popular threads if you want that in addition to the threads you've posted to or been mentioned in.
    No, that's what forum subscriptions are for.
    Or lack thereof. I don't necessarily want to be bombarded with email every time someone posts a rant about, say, racism just because I posted to the same thread when it was about some entirely different topic.@Lorne Kates said:
    @Ben L. said:
    There's also the fact that it'll only email you if you aren't currently reading the thread on the forum.
    Is there some dumbass Javascript shit that is constantly pinging back to the server to do analytics on me? Fuck that.
    I agree, but if that's what it's doing, at least it's easily solved by NoScript.



  • @locallunatic said:

    That is where the formatting came from historically, but based on how much historical precedent pisses off blakey I don't see this being a good way to argue about markdown with him.

    "we've always done it that way" is the worst way to make any decision.

    You have successfully read my mind.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    "we've always done it that way" is the worst way to make any decision. [Emphasis added.]
    Disagree. Sometimes it's a terrible way to make a decision; sometimes it's sensible. POLA is a thing. ("The way foo is implemented isn't ideal, but it's not worth fixing; the benefit is outweighed by the cost of updating all the documentation, user training, additional tech support calls, as well as the actual development and testing.") See also precedent, specifically stare decisis; our legal system would be an even bigger mess than it already is if courts could just change their minds willy-nilly about previous decisions.

    However, I don't see "we've always done it that way" being used to justify a decision here*. In fact, I don't even see the bit of history being used as precedent at all; it was simply offered as an historical illustration on how that form of text markup originated, and that it is not used exclusively by geeks. "Lots of people are already familiar with this" was probably a significant factor in the design of Markdown (and that's not necessarily a bad thing), but that's not how it's being used in this conversation.

    *If anything, "we've always done it that way" would mean not abandoning CS.


  • Trolleybus Mechanic

    @HardwareGeek said:

    @blakeyrat said:
    "we've always done it that way" is the worst way to make *any* decision. [Emphasis added.] [Markup added]
     

    MUTFY



  • "we've always done it that way" is the worst way to JUSTIFY any decision.

    You pedantic dickweeds.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    Just put in a fucking STANDARD NORMAL EDITOR like every fucking site had 5 years ago before this Markdown bullshit started spreading like a plague in the first place. Like Community Server had! Look: you're actually replacing one of the features of Community Server with something somehow WORSE! You wouldn't think that would be possible, but here we are in the IT landscape of 2014: the universe of shit.

    It makes sense when you realize most IT people are nerds with a lot of vestigial rage left over from their high school days. Markdown is payback for having sex and playing beer pong while they sat at home jackin' it to erotic text-based adventure games and reading Terry Pratchett (or vice-versa.)

    As for moving to Discourse this will probably work about as well as when Facebook outsourced most of their tech support to that other Atwood abortion, Stack Overflow. Or for those who haven't experienced that special hell, it's like outsourcing your underwear to ravenous, flesh-devouring ants.



  • Off-topic, but Lorne the fact that Mozilla is doing research like that is terrifying. I assumed Firefox was getting progressively worse because the Mozilla devs are incompetent mental defectives, but apparently they're intentionally hurting their users which is way sicker.


  • Trolleybus Mechanic

    @morbiuswilters said:

    Markdown is payback for having sex and playing beer pong while they sat at home jackin' it to erotic text-based adventure games and reading Terry Pratchett (or vice-versa.)
     

    I read Terry Pratchett when I was-- oh, wait.

    @morbiuswilters said:

    As for moving to Discourse this will probably work about as well as when Facebook outsourced most of their tech support to that other Atwood abortion, Stack Overflow.

     Facebook has tech support?

    @tehMorbs said:

    Off-topic, but Lorne the fact that Mozilla is doing research like that is terrifying. I assumed Firefox was getting progressively worse because the Mozilla devs are incompetent mental defectives, but apparently they're intentionally hurting their users which is way sicker.

    I did mention a few posts back that FF26+ breaks pgup/pgdown in textareas. I want you to try to imagine the sheer amount of either incompetence or malice that goes into breaking such a fundamental thing in such a huge way.



  • @morbiuswilters said:


    HE'S BACK


  • Trolleybus Mechanic

    @Ben L. said:

    @morbiuswilters said:
    HE'S BACK
     

    [url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbT8n_ay4fM"]And he's taking control...[/url]



  • @Lorne Kates said:

    @Ben L. said:

    @morbiuswilters said:

    HE'S BACK
    And he's taking control...

    Filed under: That movie is almost twice as old as Ben L.
    And I'm slightly more than twice as old as that movie.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @Ben L. said:

    There's also the fact that it'll only email you if you aren't currently reading the thread on the forum.

    Can that be turned off? I find searching my email quicker and saner than most forum searches (with or without Google. )



  • @PJH said:

    @Ben L. said:
    There's also the fact that it'll only email you if you aren't currently reading the thread on the forum.

    Can that be turned off? I find searching my email quicker and saner than most forum searches (with or without Google. )

    Yes.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @Ben L. said:

    @PJH said:
    @Ben L. said:
    There's also the fact that it'll only email you if you aren't currently reading the thread on the forum.

    Can that be turned off? I find searching my email quicker and saner than most forum searches (with or without Google. )

    Yes.

    Ah. With hindsight, I did actually see that on my meanderings through Meta. (Not that that page isn't visible in the sandbox...)



  • @morbiuswilters said:

    @blakeyrat said:
    Look: you're actually replacing one of the features of Community Server with something somehow WORSE! You wouldn't think that would be possible.

    As for moving to Discourse this will probably work about as well as when Facebook outsourced most of their tech support to that other Atwood abortion, Stack Overflow. Or for those who haven't experienced that special hell, it's like outsourcing your underwear to ravenous, flesh-devouring ants.

    Just went over to Slashdot for the first time in quite a while and they are apparently talking about and/or testing a new design which at first glance seems to be completely pointless and even shittier than the old version.

    Are there some sort of brainworms going around infecting everyone who runs a website?


  • Trolleybus Mechanic

    @El_Heffe said:

    they are apparently talking
     

    If by talking you mean 100% of the userbase spent days posting nothing but negative feedback ranging for extremely detailed user reports including screenshots, usability data, design flaws and illustrated screen shots-- all the way down to posts of nothing but "Fuck Beta", then yes. Talking. I have literally never seen an absolute user revolt like that. I've seen sites degrade into flamewars and arguments. But never a 100% unifying "WTF don't fucking do this". It's fascinating.

     @El_Heffe said:

    testing a new design

    If by "testing" you mean had someone's nephew code it up without any input or oversight, shoved it directly from his ass to "beta", and have literally ignored every single piece of user feedback they've received over the past 5-6 months... sure. "testing".

    The best guess is that, according to the parent company's finances, the Slashdot acquisition isn't making money-- so they're doing this intentionally to murder the site. It's one of those few cases where you might actually be able to say "nope... that actually is malice."  It's hard to believe there could be THAT much incompetence.

    It MIGHT be some bizzare Hail Mary play to desperately gain a "wider audience" to scam ad dollars off of-- but it's almost a case study in bad design, missing the point, and alienating your entire core userbase/contributors.  



  • @Lorne Kates said:

    bizzare Hail Mary play

    My brain refuses to not think about Monty Hall.



  • @Lorne Kates said:

    and have literally ignored every single piece of user feedback they've received over the past 5-6 months
    Gee, that sounds familiar. @Remy Porter said:
    Discourse offers a lot of really great functionality
    @Remy Porter said:
    We *will* give you a great new way to post messages, discuss the articles, and generally be awesome.
    @Remy Porter said:
    BoingBoing has had some great success with their new comment system, and we really like what we see when we look at it
    @Remy Porter said:
    Also, the folks at Discourse are really engaged in the process, and are giving us a lot of help, and want to work with us to make it good for you.
    Seriously, what kind of brainworms causes someone to say crap like that?  Whatever it is, it's spreading.  It's nearly identical to whatever is infecting the brains of the people running Slashdot.

    And of course, the best one: @Remy Porter said:

    when we read through the forum discussions here, what we saw was a transition from, "this is weird and different, and we don't get it," to, "oh, so it's really just oversold and not this revolutionary, completely weird thing, and while I have some niggles with the UI, it's actually kinda nice"
    Ah . . . . . now it all makes sense. It only takes one person to say "maybe it isn't a complete piece of crap" to justify everything.

    I blame Ben L.  He's the only one I remember saying anything good about Discourse.



  • What happens in Discourse if you have a "60 page" thread and you visit it again and auto-go to the latest post? Does it load the entire thing so that you can scroll up in a regular and predictable way, while also slapping a gigabyte of memory use onto your browser?



  • @dhromed said:

    What happens in Discourse if you have a "60 page" thread and you visit it again and auto-go to the latest post? Does it load the entire thing so that you can scroll up in a regular and predictable way, while also slapping a gigabyte of memory use onto your browser?

    Also that question, but I'm visiting on my 3G cellphone.



  • @dhromed said:

    What happens in Discourse if you have a "60 page" thread and you visit it again
    Why would you want to do that? There's only one thread on TDWTF that long, and sane people stay the heck away from it.


  • ♿ (Parody)

    Just to throw in my two cents...

    This version of CS (2007.1) has faithfully served us for 7+ years, and I'm sure would continue serving for another 7 years. But it'll never get updated. Ever.

    So, now seems as good at time to move on as any.

    Discourse has a lot of potential. It's not only open source (so, go ahead and add that option to not behave like X), but I also know Jeff and believe that he probably won't go all "Telligent" on the project. And there's nothing better out there, nor has there been for the past 7 years.

    We all have day jobs, so any help in migrating is appreciated!



  • @Alex Papadimoulis said:

    but I also know Jeff and believe that he probably won't go all "Telligent" on the project.

    I guess you'd say he's... Intelli-- HRNG







    Filed under: and lo, Ben L. did die that day, for making a terrible pun, Is this how we'll need to do tags in Discourse?, Well, at least it won't get deleted every three months.


  • Considered Harmful

    @Ben L. said:

    @Alex Papadimoulis said:
    but I also know Jeff and believe that he probably won't go all "Telligent" on the project.

    I guess you'd say he's... Intelli-- HRNG







    Filed under: and lo, Ben L. did die that day, for making a terrible pun


    I'm not sure it's a pun. They named themselves after the opposite of intelligent, and, being the opposite of intelligent themselves, decided the antonym must be "telligent."



  • @HardwareGeek said:

    Why would you want to do that? There's only one thread on TDWTF that long, and sane people stay the heck away from it.
     

    It doesn't even have to be 60 pages. 5 is enough to gum up the works.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @blakeyrat said:

    @dhromed said:

    What happens in Discourse if you have a "60 page" thread and you visit it again and auto-go to the latest post? Does it load the entire thing so that you can scroll up in a regular and predictable way, while also slapping a gigabyte of memory use onto your browser?

    Also that question, but I'm visiting on my 3G cellphone.

    ... with a monthly quota that charges §lots if you go over that quota...


  • Trolleybus Mechanic

    @Alex Papadimoulis said:

    But it'll never get updated. Ever.
     

    Which is perhaps the one and only reason why even someone like me can agree with the need to update.  Eventually, there's going to be a show-stopping bug-- either on the backend-- or given how browsers change and mobile changes, the majority of front-end users simply won't be able to use the forums anymore.

    That being said, I know that no one wants to end up in a "worse" situation, with "worse" being defined so many ways. On feature parity (ie: change to make things better, not to take things away):

    1) Remy's already said the look/feel/skin will be as close to the current forums as possible.

    2) Aside from highlight-to-quote, I can't think of any (intentional) feature of CS that isn't in any ye-old-standard forum software

    3) Email notifications are a priority, since many people interact with the forum in that way

    4)  Inline images that are hosted by the user (or imageur) instead of uploaded to the forum's server.

    5)  Infinite scrollings instead of pagination

    6) The content...

    Regarding the content, I'd argue heavily against archiving the current forum in a read-only mode. It will kill all existing conversations, and make it impossible for new users to add to "older" ones.  There's been plenty of times someone has discovered a thread a week or two after the last post, and can provide relevant information without necroing.  I feel one of the top priorities should be recreating all user accounts and threads and post-counts.  If you need help with this, I've done data migration before. Any change you can clone the CS database and give me a test-install of whatever custom version of Discourse you're going to use?

    And finally, if Discourse turns out to be a giraffe's testicle, I hope we can switch back to CS before evaluating another solution. But if it turns out to only be a giraffe's tit, then at the very least be aware that every forum member will use the software but talk as much smack about it as we did CS.  In the event, however, that Discourse is actually a giraffe's sweet lips, then by all means, mission accomplished and we were worrying about nothing.

     


  • Considered Harmful

    I've been mulling it over a while. I think my main objection is just a dread of change, but that should pass as I adapt to the new interface. My only other real concern is Markdown. I haven't really put it through its paces to see what it is and isn't capable of, but I assure you this community will. I'm afraid it's going to munge our input, especially when we employ the copypasta design pattern.

    There's a vague sense of unease about the change; but however good or bad Discourse might be, it can't be worse than Community Server.



  • @Lorne Kates said:

    And finally, if Discourse turns out to be a giraffe's testicle, I hope we can switch back to CS before evaluating another solution. But if it turns out to only be a giraffe's tit, then at the very least be aware that every forum member will use the software but talk as much smack about it as we did CS.  In the event, however, that Discourse is actually a giraffe's sweet lips, then by all means, mission accomplished and we were worrying about nothing.

    TIL Lorne Kates is sexually attracted to giraffes


  • Considered Harmful

    @Ben L. said:

    @Lorne Kates said:
    And finally, if Discourse turns out to be a giraffe's testicle, I hope we can switch back to CS before evaluating another solution. But if it turns out to only be a giraffe's tit, then at the very least be aware that every forum member will use the software but talk as much smack about it as we did CS.  In the event, however, that Discourse is actually a giraffe's sweet lips, then by all means, mission accomplished and we were worrying about nothing.

    TIL Lorne Kates is sexually attracted to giraffes

    Those giraffes were dressed very provacatively.


  • Trolleybus Mechanic

    @Ben L. said:

    TIL Lorne Kates is sexually attracted to giraffes
     

    Long necks with throats that go on forever.

    ...

    So... Discourse... at least it isn't [url=http://sevenseventeen.ca/disqus.html]Disqus[/url], right?



  • The only thing that sort of concerns me about a "new" forum is the infinite-scrolling nonsense.

    I hereby post a challenge if we go that route: someone turn it into a Möbius strip.

     



  • @Lorne Kates said:

    Long necks with throats that go on forever.
     

    Juuust like a Discourse thread.



  • I'm late to this conversation, but can I offer a suggestion?

    XenForo, with some kind of portal (or perhaps custom) plugin for the front page stories. XenForo is a non-crappy version of vBulletin. Actually, it was made by the same developers as vBulletin before it became pants-on-head retarded.

    Losing our signature guys and tag abuse is quite sad.



  • @mott555 said:

    I'm late to this conversation, but can I offer a suggestion?

    XenForo, with some kind of portal (or perhaps custom) plugin for the front page stories. XenForo is a non-crappy version of vBulletin. Actually, it was made by the same developers as vBulletin before it became pants-on-head retarded.

    Losing our signature guys and tag abuse is quite sad.

    1. PHP
    2. MySQL
    Need I continue?

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