Assault WTF
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Some of you guys are idiots. If I go out at night, alone, unarmed, into the inner city where gang wars happen and get mugged, beat, and robbed of everything on me, yes it's the gang members' fault I was mugged. But wouldn't I bear some of the responsibility for being retarded enough to intentionally put myself in that situation? Or if I'm standing in the middle of an interstate lane and I get run over by someone doing 30 mph over the speed limit?
Her situation sucks, and I sympathize. Her boss got off way too easy, sounds to me like there could have been criminal charges against him. But it also seems she was willing to put herself into a very uncomfortable (and, as hindsight has shown, risky) situation instead of dealing with the perceived discomfort of violating these messed-up social norms by refusing to participate in body shots. It sounds like her boss hasn't learned anything, but hopefully she still can. Do body shots and you might get touched in ways you don't like! Therefore, don't do body shots!
From her blog post it sounds like she didn't want to do it in the first place but gave into peer pressure. At some point you gotta learn how to say "No." I think she just learned that lesson, albeit in a painful manner. I've learned my share of painful lessons too, as have most people. Life sucks and everyone makes mistakes.
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@Ben L. said:
I think we should work toward stopping the problem of workplace sexual molest!
You will take away the NRA's molest rifles when you pry them from their cold dead hands.
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@Lorne Kates said:
@Ben L. said:
I think we should work toward stopping the problem of workplace sexual molest!
You will take away the NRA's molest rifles when you pry them from their cold dead hands.
[insert joke about the military making a molest on the enemy]
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@dhromed said:
@Ronald said:
Words have a meaning. She was possibly molested. Not assaulted.
Would it make you happy if I just went replace('assault', 'molest') in my posts?
Some women (and men) are victims of violent sexual assaults and they have to undergo extensive surgery afterwards; some even die of their injuries (like that indian girl who was assaulted on a bus and suffered fatal internal injuries because they went at her with a lead pipe when they were done gang-raping her).
So when you use the same word ("assault") to describe a situation where a drunken moron thinks that it's ok to grab the ass of a drunken girl who allowed him to do body shots on her by laying down on a bar during a party, you are bastardizing a very strong word.
Maybe someday we will live in a society like in the Demolition Man movie where violence is a thing of the past and where saying "asshole" results in a 1/2 credit fine but until then we need to be able to tell the difference between violent incidents and socially unappropriate behaviors.
On a side note: it's always puzzling to see people who can get their panties in a bunch over a suboptimal date formating function but somehow don't see how using hyperboles to describe sensitive issues is wrong.
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@Ronald said:
And when you use your personal definition of what you think a word should mean .. you are bastardizing a very strong legal definition Sexual AssaultSo when you use the same word ("assault") to describe a situation where a drunken moron thinks that it's ok to grab the ass of a drunken girl who allowed him to do body shots on her by laying down on a bar during a party, you are bastardizing a very strong word.
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@boomzilla said:
fantasy
My problem, is that people who scream about being screamed at for blaming the victim, is that they treat these things as objective, unchanging facets of reality like storm damage to your house, instead of a cultivated behaviour pattern, grown and maintained entirely by people. It's like you're completely ignoring assailers in favour of talking exclusively about what (potential) victims can do to protect themselves from this supposed force of nature. And even when you do observe the assailers, like you mentioned, it's only to extract more tactics for protection of the victims. It doesn't solve anything at all.
Forget my umbrella. Heavy rain. Get wet. That's a stupid thing I did. I'm the victim, and I'm to blame. Doh. fortunately, being soaked is pretty small thing to recover from with a big towel and cup of tea.
This is not the same thing. This is a storm that dissolves if we push at it hard enough. If that's a fantasy world, then fuck yes I would love to live in that world. The only reality I see is that we don't live in that world yet, and one has to deal with that, but what you're doing is the equivalent of shrugging.
*) disclaimer: no fucking on the mission guaranteed.
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@OzPeter said:
@Ronald said:
And when you use your personal definition of what you think a word should mean .. you are bastardizing a very strong legal definition Sexual AssaultSo when you use the same word ("assault") to describe a situation where a drunken moron thinks that it's ok to grab the ass of a drunken girl who allowed him to do body shots on her by laying down on a bar during a party, you are bastardizing a very strong word.
Calling a wikipedia link a "strong legal definition" shows the depth of your legal expertise (and common sense).
So let's hear it: since you believe the word "assault" applies to both situation, tell us how do you make the difference between :
- a girl who is gang-raped and then has her internal organs heavily damaged by a lead pipe
- a girl who agrees to let her boss do body shots on her while laying down on a bar during a party (and often lets male coworkers rub her back and kiss her on the forehead) but is mortified when he grabs her ass later during the same party
Normally I would call you an idiot but since you insist on strong legal definitions, here is what I think you are.
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@Ronald said:
Normally I would call you an idiot but since you insist on strong legal definitions, here is what I think you are
Ah .. name calling .. why don't I expect anything less than that sort of response from you?
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i think it's okay to go ahead and call the 'fatal indian sexual assualt thing' a rape. sorry I don't have a link to wikipedia.
if you start typing 'legal definition' into google, you get good autocomplete results... google.
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@OzPeter said:
@Ronald said:
Normally I would call you an idiot but since you insist on strong legal definitions, here is what I think you are
Ah .. name calling .. why don't I expect anything less than that sort of response from you?
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I think I have to sort-of side with Ronald here. Molestation and assault are - practically as wel as legally - two different things.
However, it goes without saying that this does NOT make Joe's behaviour in any way acceptable. No is no, and really, if you're someone's boss you ought to know better in the first place (but really ANY man should know better).
And yes, getting gang-raped on a bus is objectively worse than getting fingered during a drunken party, but it can be traumatic all the same. No matter how much you think a woman is leading you on, if she says "no" she means "no". Period. There simply are no excuses for either molestion, assault or rape.
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@Monomelodies said:
Ordinarily, I'd say "Thank you, Captain Obvious," but certain people in this thread have had parts of their brain turned off or something and sorely need getting re-acquainted with the obvious. The other obvious thing is that the people who need to be told that no means no probably aren't reading this thread, or what's more likely, don't care.I think I have to sort-of side with Ronald here. Molestation and assault are - practically as wel as legally - two different things.
However, it goes without saying that this does NOT make Joe's behaviour in any way acceptable. No is no, and really, if you're someone's boss you ought to know better in the first place (but really ANY man should know better).
And yes, getting gang-raped on a bus is objectively worse than getting fingered during a drunken party, but it can be traumatic all the same. No matter how much you think a woman is leading you on, if she says "no" she means "no". Period. There simply are no excuses for either molestion, assault or rape.
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@PedanticCurmudgeon said:
@Monomelodies said:
Ordinarily, I'd say "Thank you, Captain Obvious," but certain people in this thread have had parts of their brain turned off or something and sorely need getting re-acquainted with the obvious. The other obvious thing is that the people who need to be told that no means no probably aren't reading this thread, or what's more likely, don't care.However, it goes without saying that this does NOT make Joe's behaviour in any way acceptable. No is no, and really, if you're someone's boss you ought to know better in the first place (but really ANY man should know better).
And yes, getting gang-raped on a bus is objectively worse than getting fingered during a drunken party, but it can be traumatic all the same. No matter how much you think a woman is leading you on, if she says "no" she means "no". Period. There simply are no excuses for either molestion, assault or rape.
The fact that he was her boss basically removes all kinds of nuance in this incident. He was wrong and that's that.
But if we were to play the devil's advocate, we could argue that she did not say "no" until late in the incident. She did not warn him (or slap him or throw him a glass of water) when he grabbed her ass, and did not walk away until someone came and "rescued" her. Read the recap of her story:
@The blog post said:
- Joe began to start rubbing my back and kissing my forehead (let me say this is not uncommon behavior between me and men I consider close friends. I have a close relationship with a lot of my former EdgeCase coworkers)
- Joe then put his hands down the back of my pants, yes, I wear a thong and thus he began grabbing my ass.
- Joe then started kissing me, forcibly with his tongue. I was not reciprocating.
- Joe began to put his hand down the front of my pants and finger me. I was a deer in headlights staring into the eyes of the two male bartenders hoping someone would help me.
- I told Joe to stop and reminded him he had a wife and children. He said, “Don’t’ worry about it we have an agreement”
- Finally Matt Darby approached me and asked if I want to go out for a smoke (I smoke, he does’t smoke, and I knew that he was trying to help) I agreed.
Basically she wanted the situation to stop without having to put a stop to it herself (at least until #5) and was hoping that the guy would understand and stop simply because she was not "reciprocating" his kiss, or that someone else would figure out that she was not into it and would tell him. That's a totally different situation than a girl saying no and being tied down and raped. Especially given the context, the fact the she did let him do shots on her body, and she frequently had make coworkers rub her back or kiss her forehead. Until #5 the "no" part of "no means no" was technically missing.
This is the same kind of story that always happen with "self-defense" in bar fights. You have this guy come in your face and insult you, and you don't want to back down in front of your girlfriend so you wait until he throws the first punch hoping to call it self-defense when you punch him back - unfortunately that's not a valid defense as you could have left the bar to end the incident. Ask any lawyer.
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@Ben L. said:
@dhromed said:
@Ronald said:
Words have a meaning. She was possibly molested. Not molested.
Would it make you happy if I just went replace('molest', 'molest') in my posts?
I think we should work toward stopping the problem of workplace sexual molest!Jokes aside, it's a fact that women are often treated poorly in IT. Besides the obviously inappropriate stuff like sexual harassments or non-stop flirting, there is a darker, deeper form of sexism that often takes place. People expect female coworkers to take care of errands (grocey shopping, coffee runs, ordering pizza), they expect them to organize birthdays or company events, they expect them to act as a go-between when there is tension between teams. All kinds of stuff that women did not sign up for (unless they work in HR or reception).
There is also another factor that is specific to IT: creeps. When you have 10:1 ratios it's unavoidable that the :1 part will get a lot of attention, in any industry, but because IT workers have an unusually high proportion of loners and socially awkward individuals, a simple friendly smile from a female coworker can often trigger a rapid emotional escalation. That's not something you see that often in other industries where women are a minority (like law enforcement or construction) - they have different issues.
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@Ronald said:
Actually, my post was more directed at dhromed, who seems to think that if everyone says "No means no" enough times, we'll be able to magically stop everyone from raping. Realistically, it will happen just after we get all burglars and muggers to make an honest living and all politicians to tell the truth.The fact that he was her boss basically removes all kinds of nuance in this incident. He was wrong and that's that.
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@PedanticCurmudgeon said:
@Ronald said:
Actually, my post was more directed at dhromed, who seems to think that if everyone says "No means no" enough times, we'll be able to magically stop everyone from raping. Realistically, it will happen just after we get all burglars and muggers to make an honest living and all politicians to tell the truth.The fact that he was her boss basically removes all kinds of nuance in this incident. He was wrong and that's that.
Also let's not forget that THERE IS NO REASON TO HIT A WOMAN, even if she did not dry the can-opener properly.
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Link is 404, so from the way back machine: http://web.archive.org/web/20131012061824/http://blogjustine.wordpress.com/2013/10/12/because-it-needs-to-be-said/
Actions have consequences, and some times should think twice about what possible consequences your actions might ultimately lead to.
Having said that, assholes are assholes and do not deserve to get away with shit so easily. They should suffer consequences for their actions, too.
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@boomzilla said:
If I walk through South Central L.A. with a Confederate flag t-shirt (or maybe a SF Giants hat, these days), the dudes who beat me senseless are responsible for their actions, but I was doing something really dumb to put myself into the situation. That's not a direct analogy, and they might have beaten me even if I hadn't worn the shirt, just like he might have assaulted her if she hadn't hugged and given him hand to forehead kisses. But if I'd just stayed away from the dangerous neighborhood or she hadn't agreed to the body shot, we'd both be better off, and would have prevented the situation. Who knows how many previous times such a thing might have happened, but didn't because she was able to resist or avoid putting herself in a compromising position?
And there's your problem. You're ignoring the reality that for us walking talking computers, everything has to boil down to a binary operator. True/false. Right/wrong. Guilty/innocent (except in Scotland, which also has File Not Found). He did something wrong or she did something wrong, and even non-geeks understand that the "or" really means "xor".
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@Paddles said:
@boomzilla said:
If I walk through South Central L.A. with a Confederate flag t-shirt (or maybe a SF Giants hat, these days), the dudes who beat me senseless are responsible for their actions, but I was doing something really dumb to put myself into the situation. That's not a direct analogy, and they might have beaten me even if I hadn't worn the shirt, just like he might have assaulted her if she hadn't hugged and given him hand to forehead kisses. But if I'd just stayed away from the dangerous neighborhood or she hadn't agreed to the body shot, we'd both be better off, and would have prevented the situation. Who knows how many previous times such a thing might have happened, but didn't because she was able to resist or avoid putting herself in a compromising position?
And there's your problem. You're ignoring the reality that for us walking talking computers, everything has to boil down to a binary operator. True/false. Right/wrong. Guilty/innocent (except in Scotland, which also has File Not Found). He did something wrong or she did something wrong, and even non-geeks understand that the "or" really means "xor".
You forgot an important part of the equation: time.
So while we could drill down on each event for a more accurate interpretation, here is a simplistic boolean verdict: he did something wrong at the moment of the incident, she did something wrong at the time of posting the blog entry. Anyone trying to come up with a single answer for both events* seriously needs to brush up on his ARCH basics.
* yes I am talking about you
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@Paddles said:
@boomzilla said:
If I walk through South Central L.A. with a Confederate flag t-shirt (or maybe a SF Giants hat, these days), the dudes who beat me senseless are responsible for their actions, but I was doing something really dumb to put myself into the situation. That's not a direct analogy, and they might have beaten me even if I hadn't worn the shirt, just like he might have assaulted her if she hadn't hugged and given him hand to forehead kisses. But if I'd just stayed away from the dangerous neighborhood or she hadn't agreed to the body shot, we'd both be better off, and would have prevented the situation. Who knows how many previous times such a thing might have happened, but didn't because she was able to resist or avoid putting herself in a compromising position?
And there's your problem. You're ignoring the reality that for us walking talking computers, everything has to boil down to a binary operator. True/false. Right/wrong. Guilty/innocent (except in Scotland, which also has File Not Found). He did something wrong or she did something wrong, and even non-geeks understand that the "or" really means "xor".
She did something wrong first (leading people on, doing things she didn't like in a shady crowd, the binge drinking, the body shot, not walking away at the appropriate time). Then he did something wrong (no means no, so fuck off). Then their company did something wrong (let him go while he could say he voluntarily left, and also not reporting him to the authorities and prosecuting him). And finally she did something wrong again (writing the blog post).
A lot of people did a lot of things wrong.
Nothing binary about it.
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@dhromed said:
It's like you're completely ignoring assailers in favour of talking exclusively about what (potential) victims can do to protect themselves from this supposed force of nature.
Isn't understanding how to avoid become a victim the most interesting and worthwhile thing to discuss here?
@dhromed said:
And even when you do observe the assailers, like you mentioned, it's only to extract more tactics for protection of the victims. It doesn't solve anything at all.
WTF. If a potential victim avoids becoming an actual victim then a problem was solved.
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@boomzilla said:
@dhromed said:
It's like you're completely ignoring assailers in favour of talking exclusively about what (potential) victims can do to protect themselves from this supposed force of nature.
Isn't understanding how to avoid become a victim the most interesting and worthwhile thing to discuss here?
@dhromed said:
And even when you do observe the assailers, like you mentioned, it's only to extract more tactics for protection of the victims. It doesn't solve anything at all.
WTF. If a potential victim avoids becoming an actual victim then a problem was solved.
Wrong. The worst you can do to someone is cuddle them, they need to fight their own battles.
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@Ronald said:
@boomzilla said:
WTF. If a potential victim avoids becoming an actual victim then a problem was solved.
Wrong. The worst you can do to someone is cuddle them, they need to fight their own battles.
I wasn't saying they shouldn't be able to fight their own battles. More like, teach them to fight so that they're better prepared to fight. dhromed says he'd rather not think about these nasty things in case we might make actual victims feel bad because they might have been able to prevent whatever was done to them.
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@Ronald said:
@boomzilla said:
s/cuddle/coddle/@dhromed said:
It's like you're completely ignoring assailers in favour of talking exclusively about what (potential) victims can do to protect themselves from this supposed force of nature.
Isn't understanding how to avoid become a victim the most interesting and worthwhile thing to discuss here?
@dhromed said:
And even when you do observe the assailers, like you mentioned, it's only to extract more tactics for protection of the victims. It doesn't solve anything at all.
WTF. If a potential victim avoids becoming an actual victim then a problem was solved.
Wrong. The worst you can do to someone is cuddle them, they need to fight their own battles.
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@Ronald said:
@Ben L. said:
@dhromed said:
@Ronald said:
I think we should work toward stopping the problem of workplace sexual molest!Words have a meaning. She was possibly molested. Not molested.
Would it make you happy if I just went replace('molest', 'molest') in my posts?Jokes aside, it's a fact that women are often treated poorly in IT. Besides the obviously inappropriate stuff like sexual harassments or non-stop flirting, there is a darker, deeper form of sexism that often takes place. People expect female coworkers to take care of errands (grocey shopping, coffee runs, ordering pizza), they expect them to organize birthdays or company events, they expect them to act as a go-between when there is tension between teams. All kinds of stuff that women did not sign up for (unless they work in HR or reception).
Interesting.
There are 3 women (and about 20 men) in the office I work at. One is the Project Manager for a major project, one is a programmer, and... I'm honestly not sure what the third one does because she works on a team for a project that I have nothing to do with.
The Office Manager here--the person who takes care of all the stuff you talk about--is actually a guy, and we all love him because he does an excellent job of keeping things running smoothly. The person he replaced was a woman. She was pretty and funny and friendly and a lot of fun to hang out with, and geeky enough to fit in with "the guys" around here really well... but she never really did a very good job at being an Office Manager, and eventually she left for another job and we got the guy who's with us now. It's been a big improvement.
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@Paddles said:
Is BrainOS open source or proprietary?
Proprietary, obviously. None of us users have ever seen the source code, and it's so heavily obfuscated that it's taken years of effort to even begin to see any meaningful results at reverse-engineering it.
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@PedanticCurmudgeon said:
The other obvious thing is that the people who need to be told that no means no probably aren't reading this thread, or what's more likely, don't care.
Well, seeing the ensuing discussion I'd beg to differ.
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@Monomelodies said:
It's almost like we weren't reading the same thread. Even Ronald said the boss was wrong.@PedanticCurmudgeon said:
The other obvious thing is that the people who need to be told that no means no probably aren't reading this thread, or what's more likely, don't care.
Well, seeing the ensuing discussion I'd beg to differ.
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@PedanticCurmudgeon said:
Even Ronald
That's petty. Are you a woman?
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@Ronald said:
@PedanticCurmudgeon said:
Even Ronald
That's petty. Are you a woman?
Wait, Ronald's a woman? That makes so much distrubing sense.
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@Lorne Kates said:
@Ronald said:
@PedanticCurmudgeon said:
Even Ronald
That's petty. Are you a woman?
Wait, Ronald's a woman? That makes so much distrubing sense.
No, PedanticCurmudgeon is a woman. Or something close.
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@Ronald said:
@PedanticCurmudgeon said:
That "no offense" tag was for you, but apparently it didn't work.Even Ronald
That's petty. Are you a woman?
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@PedanticCurmudgeon said:
@Ronald said:
@PedanticCurmudgeon said:
That "no offense" tag was for you, but apparently it didn't work.Even Ronald
That's petty. Are you a woman?
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@boomzilla said:
Because someone is a victim, do you think there was nothing they could have done differently to have prevented their victimhood?
The problem with this idea is that it's not the kind of society we deem desirable. Would you kick out your family and shun your friends, and live in an underground bunker with all your worldly possessions? Or would you prefer that I use my Captain-Hindsight-powers when you find out your wife is cheating on you and your house gets burglarized?
But hey, if you don't drink alcohol, do what your parents tell you to and wear a burqua at all times, you won't get raped! It doesn't count when your husband does it, obviously.
@boomzilla said:
WTF. If a potential victim avoids becoming an actual victim then a problem was solved.
See above for my solution to all your problems.
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@Faxmachinen said:
@boomzilla said:
Because someone is a victim, do you think there was nothing they could have done differently to have prevented their victimhood?
The problem with this idea is that it's not the kind of society we deem desirable. Would you kick out your family and shun your friends, and live in an underground bunker with all your worldly possessions? Or would you prefer that I use my Captain-Hindsight-powers when you find out your wife is cheating on you and your house gets burglarized?
But hey, if you don't drink alcohol, do what your parents tell you to and wear a burqua at all times, you won't get raped! It doesn't count when your husband does it, obviously.
Good, good, another person who can't be bothered to learn from others' mistakes.
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@Faxmachinen said:
@boomzilla said:
This is probably the most perfect example of the Straw Man Argument I've ever seen. And that's coming from someone who likes to post straw men!Because someone is a victim, do you think there was nothing they could have done differently to have prevented their victimhood?
The problem with this idea is that it's not the kind of society we deem desirable. Would you kick out your family and shun your friends, and live in an underground bunker with all your worldly possessions? Or would you prefer that I use my Captain-Hindsight-powers when you find out your wife is cheating on you and your house gets burglarized?But hey, if you don't drink alcohol, do what your parents tell you to and wear a burqua at all times, you won't get raped! It doesn't count when your husband does it, obviously.@boomzilla said:
WTF. If a potential victim avoids becoming an actual victim then a problem was solved.
See above for my solution to all your problems.
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Since it looks like the blogpost got taken down, can anyone summarize the [NSFW Details] for me? Like did he just do a little ass grabbing, or go straight into her panties, or what?
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@boomzilla said:
Good, good, another person who can't be bothered to learn from others' mistakes.
I'm not saying people shouldn't learn, I'm saying you should strive not to be a fuckwad. Blaming sexual assault victims (as you did in this thread) by playing Captain Hindsight is being a fuckwad.
@mott555 said:
This is probably the most perfect example of the Straw Man Argument I've ever seen. And that's coming from someone who likes to post straw men!
You're completely right except for the part where you mistake a slippery slope argument for a straw man argument. Or maybe you quoted the wrong post?
Snooder: Google has it cached.
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@Snooder said:
Since it looks like the blogpost got taken down, can anyone summarize the [NSFW Details] for me? Like did he just do a little ass grabbing, or go straight into her panties, or what?
It sounded like some digital penetration occurred, though it was a little unclear.
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@Faxmachinen said:
@boomzilla said:
Good, good, another person who can't be bothered to learn from others' mistakes.
I'm not saying people shouldn't learn, I'm saying you should strive not to be a fuckwad. Blaming sexual assault victims (as you did in this thread) by playing Captain Hindsight is being a fuckwad.
Fuck, now everyone's trying to get in on the blakeyaction. Why don't you try on your Captain Reading Comprehension hat?
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@joe.edwards said:
@Snooder said:
Since it looks like the blogpost got taken down, can anyone summarize the [NSFW Details] for me? Like did he just do a little ass grabbing, or go straight into her panties, or what?
It sounded like some digital penetration occurred, though it was a little unclear.Here is the story. All of it takes place in a public place (a bar):
- Girl goes to a party in a bar during a ruby conference with boss and coworkers
- Girl lays down on the bar and lifts her shirt to let people (including her boss) do body shots on her
- Boss starts rubbing her back and kissing her on the forehead which she considers normal as it happens a lot with her coworkers
- Boss kisses girl on the mouth, girl does not reciprocate (but does not ask to stop)
- Boss grabs her ass inside her pants, girl says nothing
- Boss slips his hand in her panties and fingers her, girl says nothing but looks at people around hoping they will tell him she wants him to stop
- Girl then tells boss to stop because he has a wife and children (not because she is unhappy with the situation), he replies that he has an open relationship
- Coworker asks girl to go outside for a smoke, end of incident
The aftermath:
- Girl files a complaint with HR but does not sue boss
- Boss is fired but the company says he is the one who left (to save face)
- Boss writes a blog post where he says he enjoys being unemployed (no mention of incident)
- Girl has performance issues at work
- Girl has problems in her relationships
- 10 months later girl write blog post to "heal" and raise awareness about the danger of booze in IT conferences
That's not "General's Daughter" or "The Accused" material. It's basically a boss who behave like a drunken moron and a "victim" expecting her boss to figure out her fuzzy intimacy boundaries by reading her mind, then making the incident public 10 months later because him being fired was not enough she would have wanted him to be publicly shamed too.
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@boomzilla said:
Fuck, now everyone's trying to get in on the blakeyaction. Why don't you try on your Captain Reading Comprehension hat?
You're like the guy who goes "Not to be racist, but [...]", and then gets upset when people call him out on it.
@boomzilla said:
@dhromed said:
That's... blaming.
For doing something stupid? Yes. For the actions of others? No. I'm not sure why this is so hard.You admit right here that you're blaming the victim for doing something stupid. Whether or not you're also blaming the perpetrator is irrelevant.
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@Faxmachinen said:
@boomzilla said:
Fuck, now everyone's trying to get in on the blakeyaction. Why don't you try on your Captain Reading Comprehension hat?
You're like the guy who goes "Not to be racist, but [...]", and then gets upset when people call him out on it.
They'd be wrong, too. At least I'm not the guy who can't understand what he reads.
@Faxmachinen said:
@boomzilla said:
@dhromed said:
That's... blaming.
For doing something stupid? Yes. For the actions of others? No. I'm not sure why this is so hard.You admit right here that you're blaming the victim for doing something stupid. Whether or not you're also blaming the perpetrator is irrelevant.
So is your argument that she didn't do anything stupid or that it's just too déclassé for anyone to notice? Maybe you're just upset that other girls might learn from her, making your life less fun?
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@Faxmachinen said:
You admit right here that you're blaming the victim for doing something stupid. Whether or not you're also blaming the perpetrator is irrelevant.
By putting the girl beyond any kind of responsibility you are acting in a patronizing and sexist way. That's even worse than asking a rape victim how she was dressed.
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You know my personal take home from this?
God fucking hates me.
I used to think that having colleagues who don't drink and whose idea of a good time is a weekly D&D session was just part and parcel of being in the IT industry. Or maybe a side-effect of not living in a mecca of debauchery like San Francisco or Seattle or Austin. Or that I was just dumb for missing the "crazy sexy hijinks" phase in college.
But that asshole gets to do body shots off a 24 year old in Columbus, Ohio? After a goddamn ruby conference? And apparently kissing is de-riguer in the workplace? WHAT THE FUCK!!
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@boomzilla said:
So is your argument that she didn't do anything stupid or that it's just too déclassé for anyone to notice?
The latter. It's useless hindsight, it hurts the victim, and it promotes a society where it's everyone for themselves.@boomzilla said:
Maybe you're just upset that other girls might learn from her, making your life less fun?
Maybe you're just justifying your own past? That choir boy was totally asking for it.
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@Faxmachinen said:
@boomzilla said:
So is your argument that she didn't do anything stupid or that it's just too déclassé for anyone to notice?
The latter. It's useless hindsight, it hurts the victim, and it promotes a society where it's everyone for themselves.Riiight. Because trying to help someone stay out of trouble is exactly like throwing them to the wolves! Seriously, you are really fucked up if you actually believe this. There's nothing useless about learning from past mistakes.
Why do you even come to this forum? Talking about WTFs is just useless hindsight and just makes the responsible party feel bad. Holy shit. If we all were as stupid as you want us to be, we'd have been extinct a long time ago.
@Faxmachinen said:
@boomzilla said:
Maybe you're just upset that other girls might learn from her, making your life less fun?
Maybe you're just justifying your own past? That choir boy was totally asking for it.Asking for what? I'm not the one advocating that we shouldn't learn how to avoid awful things like this. I'm not the one saying we should stick our heads in the sand. You're the sick fuck who'd rather console a victim after the fact than teach her how to avoid being one.
I apologize for demeaning your reading comprehension earlier. The problem clearly goes much deeper.
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@Snooder said:
You know my personal take home from this?
God fucking hates me.
I used to think that having colleagues who don't drink and whose idea of a good time is a weekly D&D session was just part and parcel of being in the IT industry. Or maybe a side-effect of not living in a mecca of debauchery like San Francisco or Seattle or Austin. Or that I was just dumb for missing the "crazy sexy hijinks" phase in college.
But that asshole gets to do body shots off a 24 year old in Columbus, Ohio? After a goddamn ruby conference? And apparently kissing is de-riguer in the workplace? WHAT THE FUCK!!
I think that's probably the wrong takeaway from this story. But OTOH, I think you might be in the minority, in my admittedly limited experience, most of my coworkers have been borderline alcoholics.
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@Snooder said:
You know my personal take home from this?
God fucking hates me.
I used to think that having colleagues who don't drink and who's idea of a good time is a weekly D&D session was just part and parcel of being in the IT industry. Or maybe a side-effect of not living in a mecca of debauchery like San Francisco or Seattle or Austin.
But that asshole gets to do body shots off a 24 year old in Columbus, Ohio? After a goddamn ruby conference? And apparently kissing is de-riguer in the workplace? WHAT THE FUCK!!Heavy drinking with coworkers at lunch or after business hours is common in IT companies in the US, especially if the salaries are low. In smaller companies it is even typical to have free beer either in the cafeteria or in the department's fridge, and subsidized happy hours is a common thing. Every single IT conference is an opportunity to get plastered, this is not specific to trendy technologies; even during IBM conferences they usually setup a shuttle to bring attendees to/from a dinner party where booze is free.
I've done quite a bit of traveling for work and here is my take on how things work outside the US (in IT):
- In France it is common to meet coworkers for a long dinner and to go party with them afterwards; also many companies will host wine tasting events or other formal parties during business hours a few times a year
- In Japan it is common to go out with coworkers but only peers
- In South Korea it is common to go to a karaoke bar with coworkers (but karaoke is not like in the US, usually your book a small room or alcove for your party)
- In India it is common to pool money and hire a chef for a dinner party at one of the coworkers house during the week; on the weekend some coworkers may invite you to go do some chores with them at the temple like dusting or light landscaping (seriously)
- In many areas in Africa it is expected that during the weekend you find time to stop by the house of your closest coworkers, but only during daytime (going to church together is also an acceptable venue)
- In Ireland it is common to go for a beer with coworkers, and if you decline they will find it suspicious
The worst place to go if you like partying with coworkers is Toronto (Canada). I've been to Pyongyang (North Korea) and Vladivostok (Russia), and both are lands of endless wonder and magic compared to Toronto. Oklahoma City is pretty boring too.
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@Ronald said:
Heavy drinking with coworkers at lunch or after business hours is common in IT companies in the US, especially if the salaries are low. In smaller companies it is even typical to have free beer either in the cafeteria or in the department's fridge, and subsidized happy hours is a common thing. Every single IT conference is an opportunity to get plastered, this is not specific to trendy technologies; even during IBM conferences they usually setup a shuttle to bring attendees to/from a dinner party where booze is free.
I've done quite a bit of traveling for work and here is my take on how things work outside the US (in IT):
- In France it is common to meet coworkers for a long dinner and to go party with them afterwards; also many companies will host wine tasting events or other formal parties during business hours a few times a year
- In Japan it is common to go out with coworkers but only peers
- In South Korea it is common to go to a karaoke bar with coworkers (but karaoke is not like in the US, usually your book a small room or alcove for your party)
- In India it is common to pool money and hire a chef for a dinner party at one of the coworkers house during the week; on the weekend some coworkers may invite you to go do some chores with them at the temple like dusting or light landscaping (seriously)
- In many areas in Africa it is expected that during the weekend you find time to stop by the house of your closest coworkers, but only during daytime (going to church together is also an acceptable venue)
- In Ireland it is common to go for a beer with coworkers, and if you decline they will find it suspicious
The worst place to go if you like partying with coworkers is Toronto (Canada). I've been to Pyongyang (North Korea) and Vladivostok (Russia), and both are lands of endless wonder and magic compared to Toronto. Oklahoma City is pretty boring too.
You know, I've never really understood this. Silly jokes about "the Ballmer Peak" notwithstanding, we're professionals whose livelihood is directly derived from our brains. Why would anyone with an ounce of intelligence think it's a good idea to go and heavily dose themselves with a highly addictive drug that is known to impair brain functionality? IT makes about as much sense as a professional athlete engaging in activities that cause long-term damage to his arms or legs.
