Microsoft still hasn't figured it out.







  • Seriously, it's your operating system. It's your software. You should be the FIRST people to figure out how to run programs without rebooting.



  • I don't think it's a matter of "not knowing", I think it's a matter of technical support. Most of the time when you get this message it's because new services have been added and others need to be restarted to load new environment variables or whatnot; odds are that for most people things will work out immediately, but instead of having to support people who have to troubleshoot services that did not restart or who have resources to unlock they figure it's much easier to tell people to reboot.

    Someday when you start working you will see. Lying to users to make your life easier happens and can be cost-effective.

    As for rebooting: it's not wrong per se. It's annoying if you have to do it often but did you try rebooting Windows 8 on a recent laptop? It's so fast, at first it feels like it did not reboot.



  • @Ronald said:

    I don't think it's a matter of "not knowing", I think it's a matter of technical support. Most of the time when you get this message it's because new services have been added and others need to be restarted to load new environment variables or whatnot; odds are that for most people things will work out immediately, but instead of having to support people who have to troubleshoot services that did not restart or who have resources to unlock they figure it's much easier to tell people to reboot.

    Someday when you start working you will see. Lying to users to make your life easier happens and can be cost-effective.

    As for rebooting: it's not wrong per se. It's annoying if you have to do it often but did you try rebooting Windows 8 on a recent laptop? It's so fast, at first it feels like it did not reboot.

    Why does Visual Studio change services? It's a fucking IDE. IDEs should not need to run things while they're not open.



  • @Ben L. said:

    @Ronald said:

    I don't think it's a matter of "not knowing", I think it's a matter of technical support. Most of the time when you get this message it's because new services have been added and others need to be restarted to load new environment variables or whatnot; odds are that for most people things will work out immediately, but instead of having to support people who have to troubleshoot services that did not restart or who have resources to unlock they figure it's much easier to tell people to reboot.

    Someday when you start working you will see. Lying to users to make your life easier happens and can be cost-effective.

    As for rebooting: it's not wrong per se. It's annoying if you have to do it often but did you try rebooting Windows 8 on a recent laptop? It's so fast, at first it feels like it did not reboot.

    Why does Visual Studio change services? It's a fucking IDE. IDEs should not need to run things while they're not open.

    VS 2013 is in preview mode (look at your own screenshot). So instead of being a little bitch about it why don't you go on Connect to share your experience and suggest that they review the setup process. Odds are that it was simply your machine that needed an update of the .Net framework and either DLLs that were in use needed to be replaced or some system service was holding on resources that had to be reloaded. Or something.



  • @Ronald said:

    I don't think it's a matter of "not knowing", I think it's a matter of technical support. Most of the time when you get this message it's because new services have been added and others need to be restarted to load new environment variables or whatnot; odds are that for most people things will work out immediately, but instead of having to support people who have to troubleshoot services that did not restart or who have resources to unlock they figure it's much easier to tell people to reboot.

    Someday when you start working you will see. Lying to users to make your life easier happens and can be cost-effective.

    As for rebooting: it's not wrong per se. It's annoying if you have to do it often but did you try rebooting Windows 8 on a recent laptop? It's so fast, at first it feels like it did not reboot.

     

    So the real WTF is that it might work for some users, but will not work for some other users?

    I agree with Ben L. here on the services bit. Which other applications do you have to reboot your PC for these days? Not that many, I can tell you. But you cleverly avoided the question why an IDE would need services with an attack on his person.

     



  • up 7 days, 45 min, 1 user

    And during this time I've uninstalled nginx, installed Apache, MySQL, PHP, Android Studio (to try it out) and a new version of Eclipse. Without rebooting a single time. Talk about broken software and I'll show you a WHOLE operating system.



  • @Ronald said:

    did you try rebooting Windows 8 on a recent laptop? It's so fast, at first it feels like it did not reboot.
    Rebooting may be fast, but it still forces you to close down every other program you were using, even if they are at a point where data cannot be saved/resumed yet. Eg. part way through some number crunching, not yet reached a savegame, in the middle of some important communication that needs you to remain online, etc.. It's not just about maintaining uptime (my personal Linux record of 5 months ended when someone dropped a CD on the power switch, while I have gone for a couple of months on Windows 7). Sometimes there's actual data loss and annoying inconvenience associated with reboots. They should be kept to an absolute minimum, and if possible avoided completely. Installing an IDE certainly has no place demanding a reboot.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @ubersoldat said:

    up 7 days, 45 min, 1 user

    And during this time I've uninstalled nginx, installed Apache, MySQL, PHP, Android Studio (to try it out) and a new version of Eclipse. Without rebooting a single time. Talk about broken software and I'll show you a WHOLE operating system.

    My previous laptop had a record uptime of nearly a year. Haven't had the current one long enough yet to have anything other than a trivial uptime (and it's had a few issues with hanging display drivers, which hasn't helped).


  •  Reboots are for Hardware changes only!



  • @Ronald said:

    Lying to users to make your life easier
    In my experience users lie, all the time, so yeah why not lie to them ^^



  • @Ben L. said:

    Why does Visual Studio change services? It's a fucking IDE. IDEs should not need to run things while they're not open.
    It only asks for a reboot when it has to update/install the .NET Framework.

    Maybe it shouldn't do that and expect users to install it by themselves. I mean, it's just a fucking IDE, right?

     



  • @pbean said:

    I agree with Ben L. here on the services bit. Which other applications do you have to reboot your PC for these days? Not that many, I can tell you. But you cleverly avoided the question why an IDE would need services with an attack on his person.
    It's just more evidence for my hypothesis that Ronald is a pseudonym of Steve Ballmer.

     



  • @Ben L. said:

    Seriously, it's your operating system. It's your software. You should be the FIRST people to figure out how to run programs without rebooting.
    You probably had something running that locked the files the installer was updating. VS 2013 installed without requiring a reboot here.



  • Ben, your PC either required the installation of services or updates to .dll files that were in use at the time of deployment.  Visual Studio usually includes an installation of MS SQL Server express, new .net frameworks, and/or other software with lower level hooks to the operating system for debugging purposes. Some users (developers, mostly), will not recieve the reboot message as they either run the installation without any other software running, or have already installed the other software and updates as part of a prior packages installation.

    Restarting he Computer is unnecessary probably about 90% of the time, even when in use .dll's are updated or new services installed; the restart message is so that the other 10% of users don't flood the forums and tech support lines with complaints.



  • @Medezark said:

    Ben, your PC either required the installation of services or updates to .dll files that were in use at the time of deployment.  Visual Studio usually includes an installation of MS SQL Server express, new .net frameworks, and/or other software with lower level hooks to the operating system for debugging purposes. Some users (developers, mostly), will not recieve the reboot message as they either run the installation without any other software running, or have already installed the other software and updates as part of a prior packages installation.

    Restarting he Computer is unnecessary probably about 90% of the time, even when in use .dll's are updated or new services installed; the restart message is so that the other 10% of users don't flood the forums and tech support lines with complaints.

    ^^^ This ^^^

    And, assuming that the installer needs to overwrite files that are in use by another app, imagine how all twisted your underwear would get if it started closing all these apps for you, so it could overwrite the files? You'd be on here getting all mildly-moist and shouting "...and it closed WORD! And CHROME! And Outlook! And ((shudder)) STEAM! BASTARDS!"

    So rather than try to get your authorisation to close each and every app (and you'd just refuse anyway, wouldn't you?) it's better to just restart the whole train.



  • @skotl said:

    And, assuming that the installer needs to overwrite files that are in use by another app, imagine how all twisted your underwear would get if it started closing all these apps for you, so it could overwrite the files? You'd be on here getting all mildly-moist and shouting "...and it closed WORD! And CHROME! And Outlook! And ((shudder)) STEAM! BASTARDS!"
    Still, why should an IDE replace widely used DLLs?

    Anyway, just to piss off both sides: a dev should be prepared to reboot his workstation/laptop/tablet/phone/watch at any given moment.

     



  • @skotl said:

    And, assuming that the installer needs to overwrite files that are in use by another app, imagine how all twisted your underwear would get if it started closing all these apps for you, so it could overwrite the files? You'd be on here getting all mildly-moist and shouting "...and it closed WORD! And CHROME! And Outlook! And ((shudder)) STEAM! BASTARDS!"
     

     

    Why should it need to shut existing software down just because an open file has been replaced.

    Try it on linux sometime, nothing happens becuase the old file remains visible to the program that opened it untill it is closed.

    Hell I can even SSH into a remote system, shut down the SSH service, sedit the  remote ssh config file & restart the ssh service all without tears



  • @TGV said:

    Still, why should an IDE replace widely used DLLs?

    In this case, as was mentioned, you're getting more than just the IDE. It may very well be updating the .NET framework / runtime stuff, which are widely used. You'e not just getting a fancy text editor combined with a compiler.



  • @skotl said:

    assuming that the installer needs to overwrite files that are in use by another app, imagine how all twisted your underwear would get if it started closing all these apps for you, so it could overwrite the files? You'd be on here getting all mildly-moist and shouting "...and it closed WORD! And CHROME! And Outlook! And ((shudder)) STEAM! BASTARDS!"

    So rather than try to get your authorisation to close each and every app (and you'd just refuse anyway, wouldn't you?) it's better to just restart the whole train.

    Getting authorization is [b]exactly[/b] what it should do. "The following applications are using files that need to be replaced: <list>. Installation of Visual Studio will not complete until those applications are closed. Would you like the installer to close them for you?"

    If you say no, it should monitor the apps and, when the last one has closed, prompt you again. "The last application using a file that will be replaced by the installation of Visual Studio has been closed. Would you like to complete the installation now?"

    Using this approach, you are telling the user WHY you need to do what you're doing and giving them a choice about how to do it, instead of treating them like a mushroom.



  • @ip-guru said:

    Hell I can even SSH into a remote system, shut down the SSH service, sedit the remote ssh config file & restart the ssh service all without tears

    That would get fun if your internet connection was shaky.


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