Visual Studio Slow



  • I work a bit as a computer lab assistant at a college. A student needed Visual Studio installed on their laptop so they could do their homework. This person's laptop has Windows 8 as the pre-installed OS, so naturally, they installed "Visual Studio Express 2012 for Windows 8." The download and install ran fine, but then when they tried to start VS, this error message appeared that said the program was incompatible with Windows 8 and so would not start. Huh? VSE for Windows 8 is not compatible with Windows 8??!?

    I thought this was really odd; I wondered if it could be due to a faulty install, so we tried a repair installation. (I say we, but I was the one doing the actual moving of the mouse and clicking on things.) That ran perfectly fine, but the same error returned. The option to get help tried to direct to a Microsoft update download, but that page did absolutely nothing. The download button did nothing, even in Internet Explorer. (You'd think that if nothing else, Microsoft's stuff would work together.) I began to get suspicious (well, even more suspicious), so I googled for some possible fixes. One was a .Net update, which I filed away to try after I finished searching. Another was a Microsoft update (probably the same one that the error dialog tried to direct me to). I downloaded this update and installed it, and magically, Visual Studio Express for Windows 8 began to work for Windows 8.

    But then we opened the homework project, which VSE seemed to happily accept, but no source code appeared. We looked at the project tree, and a little error message there told us that VSE4Win8 only worked with Windows Store projects, derp, derp. So, to come to the end of the story, we finally just scrapped VSE4Win8 and installed Visual Studio 2012 Ultimate from the school's MSDN AA agreement.

    --------Addendum: Anyone know why Microsoft doesn't allow direct linking to their *free* download pages? The links to the updates that I found in a forum post directed to the MS.com download search page with the most popular(?) search results. I have tried other seemingly direct links to downloads, but Microsoft forces you to go through their search system to find anything. Why this unhelpful behavior?



  •  First, yes, people submit to such kind of things because free software is too hard.

    That said, Windows 8 is not a single thing, and you are probably better with the not "for Windows 8" version of any software, it doesn't matter that you want to run it in Windows 8 (whatever kind of Windows 8 you have). Well, you are better without Windows 8 at all, but sometimes the only choice is that hard to use free software.

     @Jedalyzer said:

    Addendum: Anyone know why Microsoft doesn't allow direct linking to their free download pages? The links to the updates that I found in a forum post directed to the MS.com download search page with the most popular(?) search results. I have tried other seemingly direct links to downloads, but Microsoft forces you to go through their search system to find anything. Why this unhelpful behavior?

    Microsoft does that because they want you to choose the most appropriate* version of their software. They'll try to guide you into it, and will refuse to show you anything that they deem too innapropriate. Also, they want you to accept the EULA before reaching the download page,  but this alone is not enough reason to not let deep links work.

    * Most appropriate for them, of course. Sometimes your interests will coincide, like they hiding the not compatible versions from somebody looking for a install for his computer. Other times the MS system is just too stupid, like when they hide the not compatible versions from somebody looking for a install for another computer. Other times their interests are completely oposed to yours, like when they recommend that you buy stuff from their market.



  • Lately Microsoft has released Visual Studio Express in different editions (for web, for desktop, for phone, for metro). Unless your friend was planning on creating metro apps (who would do that?) they probably should have downloaded VS Express for Windows Desktop. Still possible to do WPF and all the funny stuff.

    Microsoft is doing their best to prevent people from writing apps for Windows 8 metro. Such as not allowing people to deploy them using a MSI or some kind of setup wizard - they can only be installed from the Windows Store (which requires a dev license) or from a Windows Domain (but only supported on Windows 8 Enterprise).

    But if you think it was painful to install VS Express for Windows 8, try VS Express for Windows Phone. It requires Hyper-V and will force you to install it, only to tell you after you've gone thru an endless and annoying setup that it's not supported on your version of Windows.

    Still better than Flash Expression Blend.



  •  Ronald was correct. The "For Windows 8" is the type of application that the express edition is designed to create applications for. This is covered on MSDN, which no one apparently bothered to read. Also the need for the Update was also covered in the documentation.

     So TRWTF is a failure to RTFM.



  • @TheCPUWizard said:

     Ronald was correct. The "For Windows 8" is the type of application that the express edition is designed to create applications for. This is covered on MSDN, which no one apparently bothered to read. Also the need for the Update was also covered in the documentation.

     So TRWTF is a failure to RTFM.

    Let's read the manual then:

    http://:microsoft/express

    The documentation for the Windows 8 version is as follows:

    You have an idea for an app that could change lives around the world. Visual Studio Express for Windows 8 delivers everything you need to bring it to millions of customers. And those changed lives we were talking about? One of them could be yours.

    Yep, that explains exactly what it does.



  • @Ben L. said:

    @TheCPUWizard said:

     Ronald was correct. The "For Windows 8" is the type of application that the express edition is designed to create applications for. This is covered on MSDN, which no one apparently bothered to read. Also the need for the Update was also covered in the documentation.

     So TRWTF is a failure to RTFM.

    Let's read the manual then:

    http://:microsoft/express

    The documentation for the Windows 8 version is as follows:

    You have an idea for an app that could change lives around the world. Visual Studio Express for Windows 8 delivers everything you need to bring it to millions of customers. And those changed lives we were talking about? One of them could be yours.

    Yep, that explains exactly what it does.

    Build the next killer app, submit it to the Windows Store, and instantly reach a global audience of millions.

    Easily transition your skills to develop Windows 8 apps by using XAML in conjunction with C#, VB.NET and C++

    Hint... a manual has more than a cover page...



  • @TheCPUWizard said:

    @Ben L. said:
    @TheCPUWizard said:

     Ronald was correct. The "For Windows 8" is the type of application that the express edition is designed to create applications for. This is covered on MSDN, which no one apparently bothered to read. Also the need for the Update was also covered in the documentation.

     So TRWTF is a failure to RTFM.

    Let's read the manual then:

    http://:microsoft/express

    The documentation for the Windows 8 version is as follows:

    You have an idea for an app that could change lives around the world. Visual Studio Express for Windows 8 delivers everything you need to bring it to millions of customers. And those changed lives we were talking about? One of them could be yours.

    Yep, that explains exactly what it does.

    Hint... a manual has more than a cover page...

    Hah! Everything I need? Psshhh!! ... If I read the whole manual for everything I might want to install, I wouldn't actually get any installing done, much less anything else.

    Build the next killer app, submit it to the Windows Store, and instantly reach a global audience of millions.

    Easily transition your skills to develop Windows 8 apps by using XAML in conjunction with C#, VB.NET and C++

    The Express edition is targeted (at least in part) at beginning programmers, right? So how would that be a skill transition? And beginning programmers won't be making "killer apps." So why doesn't it accept a simple ("Hello world") VB project (that opens in every other version of VS or VSE)? VS version backwards incompatiblity? If so, it doesn't even try or ask to import the "outdated" project.

    Maybe this is a misunderstanding on the part of multiple people, including myself. The instructor for the class recommended VSE for the students, this student has Win8 and so installed VSE4Win8, everyone expecting it to be similar to other versions of VSE. But if it doesn't accept the pre-initialized class projects, it won't work as a teaching tool for the class. Maybe this goes back to "backward incompatibilities" in Win8?



  • @Jedalyzer said:

    The Express edition is targeted (at least in part) at beginning programmers, right? So how would that be a skill transition? And beginning programmers won't be making "killer apps." So why doesn't it accept a simple ("Hello world") VB project (that opens in every other version of VS or VSE)? VS version backwards incompatiblity? If so, it doesn't even try or ask to import the "outdated" project.

    Maybe this is a misunderstanding on the part of multiple people, including myself. The instructor for the class recommended VSE for the students, this student has Win8 and so installed VSE4Win8, everyone expecting it to be similar to other versions of VSE. But if it doesn't accept the pre-initialized class projects, it won't work as a teaching tool for the class. Maybe this goes back to "backward incompatibilities" in Win8?

     There are many Express Editions [not one that can be referred in the singular], and they are each targeted to the TYPE OF APPLICATION...they have nothing to do with the Operating System that is installed on your box [at least not directly]. Yest there is misunderstanding on this. It is unclear if it was the instructor or the student that had the original minunderstanding. The former would be a WTF but the latter would be understandable (play on words intentional, even if poor).



  • @TheCPUWizard said:

    @Jedalyzer said:
    The Express edition is targeted (at least in part) at beginning programmers, right? So how would that be a skill transition? And beginning programmers won't be making "killer apps." So why doesn't it accept a simple ("Hello world") VB project (that opens in every other version of VS or VSE)? VS version backwards incompatiblity? If so, it doesn't even try or ask to import the "outdated" project.

    Maybe this is a misunderstanding on the part of multiple people, including myself. The instructor for the class recommended VSE for the students, this student has Win8 and so installed VSE4Win8, everyone expecting it to be similar to other versions of VSE. But if it doesn't accept the pre-initialized class projects, it won't work as a teaching tool for the class. Maybe this goes back to "backward incompatibilities" in Win8?

     There are many Express Editions [not one that can be referred in the singular], and they are each targeted to the TYPE OF APPLICATION...they have nothing to do with the Operating System that is installed on your box [at least not directly]. Yest there is misunderstanding on this. It is unclear if it was the instructor or the student that had the original minunderstanding. The former would be a WTF but the latter would be understandable (play on words intentional, even if poor).

    One thing that can be annoying with the new VS Express approach is that it has become difficult (if not impossible) to create apps for older versions of Windows. You want to write a simple desktop app (or recompile an old library) that only requires the Framework 2.0 so it works out of the box on Windows XP? Forget it. You need to manually change the project files (outside of Visual Studio) and even then once in a while it just kinda reverts it.

    Even the Express version of Visual Studio is way better than most IDE but only as long as what you need to do falls in the mainstream use case for which that version is released.



  • @TheCPUWizard said:

    @Jedalyzer said:
    The Express edition is targeted (at least in part) at beginning programmers, right? So how would that be a skill transition? And beginning programmers won't be making "killer apps." So why doesn't it accept a simple ("Hello world") VB project (that opens in every other version of VS or VSE)? VS version backwards incompatiblity? If so, it doesn't even try or ask to import the "outdated" project.

    Maybe this is a misunderstanding on the part of multiple people, including myself. The instructor for the class recommended VSE for the students, this student has Win8 and so installed VSE4Win8, everyone expecting it to be similar to other versions of VSE. But if it doesn't accept the pre-initialized class projects, it won't work as a teaching tool for the class. Maybe this goes back to "backward incompatibilities" in Win8?

     There are many Express Editions [not one that can be referred in the singular], and they are each targeted to the TYPE OF APPLICATION...they have nothing to do with the Operating System that is installed on your box [at least not directly]. Yest there is misunderstanding on this. It is unclear if it was the instructor or the student that had the original misunderstanding. The former would be a WTF but the latter would be understandable (play on words intentional, even if poor).

    I think it was the student's misunderstanding. (And mine, because I hadn't looked into the different VS versions much.)

    So I could use Visual Studio for Windows 8 on Windows 7 to make an app for Windows 8? Or something like that?

    @Ronald said:

    One thing that can be annoying with the new VS Express approach is that it has become difficult (if not impossible) to create apps for older versions of Windows. You want to write a simple desktop app (or recompile an old library) that only requires the Framework 2.0 so it works out of the box on Windows XP? Forget it. You need to manually change the project files (outside of Visual Studio) and even then once in a while it just kinda reverts it.

    Even the Express version of Visual Studio is way better than most IDE but only as long as what you need to do falls in the mainstream use case for which that version is released.

    This is why I prefer third-party IDEs for the most part, unless I particularly need something special in VS.


  • @Jedalyzer said:

    So I could use Visual Studio for Windows 8 on Windows 7 to make an app for Windows 8? Or something like that?

    Microsoft came up with new names for the apps. Now it's either "Windows Store App" (i.e. the ones working only in the Metro mode in Windows 8 or in Windows RT, like the tiles) or "Desktop app" (working on Windows 8 Desktop and possibly on Windows 7, but not Windows RT).

    You could in theory write "Windows Store Apps" on Windows 7 and would not even need Visual Studio, as it can be done in HTML5 and javascript. But you could not deploy them at all since they can only be installed from the Windows Store (unless you happen to use Windows 8 Enterprise and you have an admin account on the domain). Pushing something on the Store requires a paid account and all apps are reviewed by Microsoft before being made available - and they also decide how long they remain available. A lousy approach.

    You can however install Visual Studio Express for Windows Desktop and write apps that will work on both Windows 7 and Windows 8 (Desktop). For those you can either distribute the EXE/DLL or make a typical setup (Installshield, Wise, etc), the Store is not needed.



  • First off, Visual Studio Express for Windows 8 is literally for Windows 8 apps, not deskop apps or web apps.  What you probably wanted was Visual Studio Express for Web or Visual Studio for Windows Desktop.  The express products are broken down in strange ways and with limitiations .  They are not an all-in-one IDE like the professional and above levels, so your web components end up being done in one version, and your GUI clients in another, etc.



  • Ah, ok. Thanks, I think I got it now. The naming system still seems really odd to me: having a name that could be taken two different ways appears counter-intuitive. But at least it sorta makes sense now.



  • @The Bytemaster said:


    [b]First off[/b], Visual Studio Express for Windows 8 is literally for Windows 8 apps, not deskop apps or web apps.  What you probably wanted was Visual Studio Express for Web or Visual Studio for Windows Desktop.  The express products are broken down in strange ways and with limitiations .  They are not an all-in-one IDE like the professional and above levels, so your web components end up being done in one version, and your GUI clients in another, etc.

    Err, no. That's more "fourth off" or "fifth off" as at least four other people have already announced that in this thread.

    Thanks for your other contributions, though! No, wait, other people have also made exactly these same points...



  • @Jedalyzer said:

    Ah, ok. Thanks, I think I got it now. The naming system still seems really odd to me: having a name that could be taken two different ways appears counter-intuitive. But at least it sorta makes sense now.

    It was a little easier to follow on the 2005-2010 versions, or if you had already dealt with any of those before trying to use 2012, because they used to be things like "Visual C# Express" and "Visual Basic Express" that made it a little more clear they were named for their limitations. With the 2012 versions, "Visual Studio Express 2012 for Web" is probably the only one for which I'd have jumped to that conclusion without first thinking the same thing as in the WTF...athough upon seeing "Visual Studio Express 2012 for Windows Phone" I would have been somewhat skeptical.



  • @skotl said:

    @The Bytemaster said:
    First off, Visual Studio Express for Windows 8 is literally for Windows 8 apps, not deskop apps or web apps.  What you probably wanted was Visual Studio Express for Web or Visual Studio for Windows Desktop.  The express products are broken down in strange ways and with limitiations .  They are not an all-in-one IDE like the professional and above levels, so your web components end up being done in one version, and your GUI clients in another, etc.

    Err, no. That's more "fourth off" or "fifth off" as at least four other people have already announced that in this thread.

    Thanks for your other contributions, though! No, wait, other people have also made exactly these same points...

    That wasa WTF moment on my part.  I resumed my system from the last time I was using it and saw that I hadn't cliked post.  Having the same reaction that I do when I get interrupted and do not click send on an e-mail, I just finished the unfinished sentance and clicked post, being half a sleep at the time and it not occuring to me that others could have posted in the two days since I first started writing it.



  • When this sort of thing happened back when I was serving my time at the hell desk, I used to point the 'student and professor' (in my case it was 'intern and clueless project manager') to the magical GNU compiler collection and Eclipse



  • @Ben L. said:

    http://:microsoft/express

    Aren't you just the cutest thing!



  • @Ben L. said:

    @TheCPUWizard said:

     Ronald was correct. The "For Windows 8" is the type of application that the express edition is designed to create applications for. This is covered on MSDN, which no one apparently bothered to read. Also the need for the Update was also covered in the documentation.

     So TRWTF is a failure to RTFM.

    Let's read the manual then:

    http://:microsoft/express

    The documentation for the Windows 8 version is as follows:

    You have an idea for an app that could change lives around the world. Visual Studio Express for Windows 8 delivers everything you need to bring it to millions of customers. And those changed lives we were talking about? One of them could be yours.

    Yep, that explains exactly what it does.

     

    I went to that page, clicked Download, clicked Visual Studio Express 2012, and clicked Visual Studio Express 2012 for Windows 8.  The section that expands says this right at the top: "Visual Studio Express 2012 for Windows 8 provides the core tools that are required to build compelling, innovative Windows Store apps."(link was in the text and I'm too lazy to remove it)

     



  • @powerlord said:

    I went to that page, clicked Download, clicked Visual Studio Express 2012, and clicked Visual Studio Express 2012 for Windows 8.  The section that expands says this right at the top: "Visual Studio Express 2012 for Windows 8
    provides the core tools that are required to build compelling, innovative Windows Store apps."(link was in the text and I'm too lazy to remove it)
    And we are expected to be mind readers and infer (cue blakeyrant™) that this is the only kind of application that can be built with it, rather than that it provides this ability in addition to other Windows 8 applications. Right. Thanks, MS, for making that clear.



  • @HardwareGeek said:

    And we are expected to be mind readers and infer (cue blakeyrant™) that this is the only kind of application that can be built with it
    No, you’re expected not to infer that it does anything besides Windows Store Apps, when that’s the only thing mentioned on the tin.


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @Sir Twist said:

    @HardwareGeek said:

    And we are expected to be mind readers and infer (cue blakeyrant™) that this is the only kind of application that can be built with it
    No, you’re expected not to infer that it does anything besides Windows Store Apps, when that’s the only thing mentioned on the tin.


    How was I supposed to know this app wouldn't do my taxes?


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