I tried renaming a file in Ubuntu
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@Salamander said:
@nonpartisan said:
Look, you asked for a reason. I gave you a reason. You may not think it's a "good" reason but it may be the best reason there is out there. Don't bitch at anyone on the forum for mis-naming php.ini; no one here did it.Because Rasmus Lerdorf made a mistake in naming it with a .ini extension and it stuck. Shall we bow to you as the programmer who has never made a mistake?
Generally when people make mistakes, they, I dunno, try and fix them.
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@blakeyrat said:
What elegance? You are insane.
You're 100% right. Everything I know is wrong. Everything you know is the one and only eternal truth. There is no better way of working than yours. My own three decades of experience in this profession have all been a complete waste of your time; I have clearly learned nothing useful. My attitude is wrong, my preferences are wrong, my life is wrong. Only you have a true and correct worldview. This is why my comments on computing topics generally display an unseemly equanimity, while yours reveal a righteous and upright fury and frustration.
All better now?
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@BC_Programmer said:
@gilhad said:
And who cares about idiotic ways WINDOWS shoot themself to leg? If there is text based config file, then it can contain anything, the author of the file/program consider usefull, regardless of some Windows stupidity. Text config files was here before Windows, text config files will be here after windows and your stupid restrictions will be abnomination, which hit only the fuking shitty Windows.
So why in the name of FUCK is it called "php.ini"? If it's not an ini file, it shouldn't be called a fucking ini file.
Maybe because it contains some values to INItialize the PHP? Initialization files was here long before Gates bought Quick and Disty OS and rename that to MS DOS.
@BC_Programmer said:
That would be like saying "oh, the configuration file is happy.doc and it is in XML format.
And why not? I had seen a lot of files ending in .DOC (like a DOCument) log before Miscrosoft even start to writing his Word.@BC_Programmer said:
Ideally the file extension- even on Linux
There are not extensions on Linux, there are fileneames, which can contain a lot of characters, like alhabet, dots and so.@BC_Programmer said:
should give some clue as to the contents. At the very least it shouldn't be some completely separate piece of information that tells you nothing about the file contents.
so php.ini INtialize PHP internal values. I think it is good clue. @BC_Programmer said:@gilhad said:
because INtialize PHP internal values. This is, was the file does.So we agree, that WINDOWS INI files are shit, while this problem do not affect other textfiles configs.
why is the file in question called php.ini?
@BC_Programmer said:
@gilhad said:
Linux config textfiles are documented and they are not those shity WINDOWS INI files, who cannot contain even longer line. So again, we agree, that this problem hits only those shitty WINDOWS INI files, not textfiles configs per se.
That's weird. I've not seen any documentation. The configurations of each application seem to differ entirely. Some use one format, some use another. All of them seem to add their own special features to their formats. Some use .ini extensions for their special config format, others use .config. I even saw one use .xml for a Linux configuration file... it wasn't xml.
And I had seen a lot of documentation for Linux text config files. Some of them even have their own man paeges. Usually the format is choosen to fit the needs of the application, which uses the config file.
@BC_Programmer said:
@gilhad said:
No, he was talking about all text config files in general.@BC_Programmer said:Which affects only those shity WINDOWS INI files not textfiles configs per se.
He's talking about ini files.
php.ini. Again. I repeat: why is it called php.ini, and not php.config. Give me ONE good reason. There isn't one.
Maybe because it contains some values to INItialize the PHP?
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@nonpartisan said:
I expected the reader to have an imagination.
It's not my job to finish your arguments.
@nonpartisan said:
now you can't get the software up to regenerate the config because it's trying to read a corrupted configuration and you're screwed.
Configuration tools do not run off the files they are reading in the same way a text editor does not configure itself with a text-based configuration file that it opens. You fucking retard.
@nonpartisan said:
There's no guarantee that everything is in an unrecoverable state. You may be able to verify the system can be operational while implementing a more detailed remediation plan.
So your solution to the problem of "Random chunks of the filesystem may or may not actually be in any valid state" is "Not all of it might be broken, therefore everything should operate on the assumption that it will explode into a ball of fire at any minute"?
@nonpartisan said:
The file is an application configuration file that got hit during an ungraceful shutdown. CHKDSK says the filesystem is clean save for an orphan cluster that held part of the configuration file in question. Now my application isn't working.
The filesystem is incapable of handling ungraceful shutdowns, so that task now falls to sysadmins and text editors?
How about just get a better filesystem?@nonpartisan said:
I had a PC at one of our trauma/resuscitation rooms that corrupted for reasons unknown. Registry was corrupt, wouldn't boot, BSOD. Last Known Config wouldn't work. With text files, I may have been able to get it back up and running until I could schedule a downtime for it. As it was, I couldn't do anything and had to reimage/rebuild at an inopportune time.
Things are not as black and white/absolute as you seem to want to think they are. Welcome to the real world.So you had a computer which was completely and utterly broken for unknown reasons, which if it used plain text config files and you spent several hours on it, could possibly have gotten it working? If you were lucky?
And you think this proves your point?
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@nonpartisan said:
@Salamander said:
Look, you asked for a reason. I gave you a reason.Generally when people make mistakes, they, I dunno, try and fix them.
I did not ask for a reason. Even if I did, what you gave is not a reason; its an excuse.
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@gilhad said:
Maybe because it contains some values to INItialize the PHP?
That's bullshit and you know it. He was ripping-off Microsoft's INI file format without bothering to actually read the file format documentation.
Gilhad, I'm done with you. You keep typing these posts full of bullshit, with zero self-awareness. You're not fooling anybody.
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@nonpartisan said:
@Salamander said:
@nonpartisan said:
The file is an application configuration file that got hit during an ungraceful shutdown. CHKDSK says the filesystem is clean save for an orphan cluster that held part of the configuration file in question. Now my application isn't working.But it IS possible to corrupt the file without corrupting the entire filesystem and making the system unusable.
Cite a reason where a file gets corrupted and the system is not in an undefined state.
When I was teching in an emergency department many years back, I had a PC at one of our trauma/resuscitation rooms that corrupted for reasons unknown. Registry was corrupt, wouldn't boot, BSOD. Last Known Config wouldn't work. With text files, I may have been able to get it back up and running until I could schedule a downtime for it. As it was, I couldn't do anything and had to reimage/rebuild at an inopportune time.
Things are not as black and white/absolute as you seem to want to think they are. Welcome to the real world.
I second that. I take (as part of my work) care of a lot of computers, which run non-critical, but visible tasks. Those computers are spread geografically. Because of being non-critical, any and all cost-cuts was probabelly applied, starting from cheap HW going thru no redundancy and endind with bad treating (like not stabilized power (forget UPS totally), hot temperature, dirt, accidental poweerouts, just name it ...). No wonder, that sometimes some files get corrupted (with or without FS). Many times there is possibility to reapear the FS automatically/remotely.Then there are working FS and maybe some corupted files.
Usually I am able to fast fix things so it runs again, just by repairing/restoring one or two files.
Granted, there is no guaratee, that there is nothing other broken. But given the choise between:
A) having the computer taken out to repair for days
B) having only few minutes outage (and low possibility of later problems)
the customer, who pay for it choose B) all times. His money, his problems, but usually it just works months or years after without visible glitch.
It is not ideal world and being able repair system to some functionality now andfix everything over that later is sometimes really usefull.
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@blakeyrat said:
@gilhad said:
INI files don't support Unicode. - WINDOWS ONLY PROBLEM
The INI file format does not support Unicode. It's well-documented; there is no debate about this.
The problem you have is that a bunch of Linux-using idiots read existing .ini files, assumed they knew the file format based on what they saw, and shat out something like php.ini. But php.ini isn't an INI file; it violates the spec in a million different ways.
The problem I see here is you began on text-based configuration files citing that binary blobs are far more efficient (I presume you're talking about the registry), but your proof is that Windows INI files suffer from these problems. Does a text-based coniguration file like web.config suffer from the same drawbacks?
And if php.ini isn't a INI file, then it's not really an example of what's wrong with INI files. I'll agree that php.ini is a WTF, but it doesn't support your rail against the deficiencies of the INI file spec.
I also get the impression you mistakenly believe all Linux config files are always text-based.
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@blakeyrat said:
You keep typing these posts full of bullshit, with zero self-awareness. You're not fooling anybody.
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@blakeyrat said:
@gilhad said:
@BC_Programmer said:
php.ini. Again. I repeat: why is it called php.ini, and not php.config. Give me ONE good reason. There isn't one.
Maybe because it contains some values to INItialize the PHP?That's bullshit and you know it. He was ripping-off Microsoft's INI file format without bothering to actually read the file format documentation.
Gilhad, I'm done with you. You keep typing these posts full of bullshit, with zero self-awareness. You're not fooling anybody.
Question was, why somebody named some file some way. I think it is the reason, why he named it this way. I would not name it this way and I would structured it different way too (and for sure not by those botched WINDOWS INI rules). But I am not autor PHP and I was not consulted him, how he should name his INItialization file. It seems to me, that the autor just wanted his config file this way, so he did it. If you do not like it, then do not use it. Your problem.
Anyway I can name config of my program JPG.INI.COM.EXE.ELF.BIN.XML.TXT.DOC.truskavec and you cannot do anything about it. You can refuse to use my program, but you cannot stop me from using such name. So live with it.
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@gilhad said:
Anyway I can name config of my program JPG.INI.COM.EXE.ELF.BIN.XML.TXT.DOC.truskavec and you cannot do anything about it. You can refuse to use my program, but you cannot stop me from using such name. So live with it.
If you dare to use .truskavec without conforming to the spec, I will personally come to your workplace and pour syrup in your keyboard.
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@blakeyrat said:
Windows updates itself silently at 3:00 AM overnight.
Yes, because every Windows computer is left on overnight, so the updates never install at a random time after the computer is powered on, and they never start bugging you with "This computer will restart in 10 minutes to finish installing updates if you don't click Cancel NOW" (or worse, in Windows 8 where it'll just initiate a restart in the hopes you've noticed the warning on the lock screen).
@blakeyrat said:I'm also a big fan of software that's not trying to upsell me every five minutes
New Windows version comes with even more features (or whatever the original English phrase is - I don't have any English Windows 7 or 8 to check).
@blakeyrat said:The INI file format does not support Unicode. It's well-documented; there is no debate about this.
This is actually wrong - INI files on NT support Unicode, as long as the file uses UTF-16 (it is a very well kept secret though).
@Salamander said:Files do not just magically become corrupted with the exception of entire filesystem corruption, at which point a damaged config file is the least of your concerns.
http://www.virtualdub.org/blog/pivot/entry.php?id=24
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@gilhad said:
So all your rants about how WINDOWS INI files are fucked, because the definition of WINDOWS INI files is fucked is totally irrelevant to this debate. Also all your arguments why are text config files wrond, based on how SPECIFIC WINDOWS INI files are totatlly fucked.
Yeah, but also, don't forget that at some point, Microsoft defined something and associated it with the extension "ini", so anyone who comes after that is either stupid for using Microsoft's stupid file format or stupid for ignoring Microsoft's stupid file format. As with much of what blakeyrat says, it's stupid / stupid. For whatever reason, he's completely incapable of seeing beyond the specific argument, or that anyone should be able to improve on something.
It's like how he bitches (with good reason) about how some people go back and forth (also often with good reason) the different between Linux and various distributions. Except his argument makes less sense.
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@boomzilla said:
@gilhad said:
So all your rants about how WINDOWS INI files are fucked, because the definition of WINDOWS INI files is fucked is totally irrelevant to this debate. Also all your arguments why are text config files wrond, based on how SPECIFIC WINDOWS INI files are totatlly fucked.
Yeah, but also, don't forget that at some point, Microsoft defined something and associated it with the extension "ini", so anyone who comes after that is either stupid for using Microsoft's stupid file format or stupid for ignoring Microsoft's stupid file format.
MS asociated a lot of previously used extensions with something stupid. I can do that too. Anybody can.
Who cares about MS? Not me.
Should all MS based products disapper in one moment, nothing important would came to me. Maybe 2 or 3 servers I use for relaxation would have some downtime - oh, big deal.
OTOH should all unix based products disapper in one moment, then Internet would stopped totally too (and lot of tablets, TVs and other devices). So why care about how one fucked company is fucking co called "standards" which nobody else need?
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@gilhad said:
Should all MS based products disapper in one moment, nothing important would came to me. Maybe 2 or 3 servers I use for relaxation would have some downtime - oh, big deal.
All my games!
I would be forced to get an ouya and play terrible games for all eternity!
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@Salamander said:
@nonpartisan said:
My solution to all of the above is to employ an admin with an IQ higher than the latest Chrome version. An admin that can actually assess the situation in context, not just scream, "OMG!! ONE BIT IS OUT OF PLACE REBUILD REBUILD NOW RED ALERT ABANDON SHIP!!!!!" There is such a thing as a middle ground, if only temporarily.There's no guarantee that everything is in an unrecoverable state. You may be able to verify the system can be operational while implementing a more detailed remediation plan.
So your solution to the problem of "Random chunks of the filesystem may or may not actually be in any valid state" is "Not all of it might be broken, therefore everything should operate on the assumption that it will explode into a ball of fire at any minute"?
@nonpartisan said:
The file is an application configuration file that got hit during an ungraceful shutdown. CHKDSK says the filesystem is clean save for an orphan cluster that held part of the configuration file in question. Now my application isn't working.
The filesystem is incapable of handling ungraceful shutdowns, so that task now falls to sysadmins and text editors?
How about just get a better filesystem?@nonpartisan said:
I had a PC at one of our trauma/resuscitation rooms that corrupted for reasons unknown. Registry was corrupt, wouldn't boot, BSOD. Last Known Config wouldn't work. With text files, I may have been able to get it back up and running until I could schedule a downtime for it. As it was, I couldn't do anything and had to reimage/rebuild at an inopportune time.
Things are not as black and white/absolute as you seem to want to think they are. Welcome to the real world.So you had a computer which was completely and utterly broken for unknown reasons, which if it used plain text config files and you spent several hours on it, could possibly have gotten it working? If you were lucky?
And you think this proves your point?I would NOT have spent several hours trying to piece together text files. My point is that I would have had the option to do so if I could follow the boot process, determine where it was hanging, and fix it. 30 minutes and if no progress, rebuild. As it was, my rescue utility (System Commander? Something like that; it has been close to 10 years and I tech no longer) showed the filesystem was in good shape. I spent at least 30 minutes using the utilities I did have at my disposal. Truly, it mysteriously corrupted. Malware? Power bump? Beats me. I never determined a cause and I wasn't in the department to witness it go down. After not being able to determine a cause and not making any progress with Microsoft's blob of binary goo, I pulled out my reimaging disks. The machine provided long and happy service from that point on.
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@blakeyrat said:
@gilhad said:
Maybe because it contains some values to INItialize the PHP?
That's bullshit and you know it. He was ripping-off Microsoft's INI file format without bothering to actually read the file format documentation.
Gilhad, I'm done with you. You keep typing these posts full of bullshit, with zero self-awareness. You're not fooling anybody.
I'm sorry but is PHP seriously catching flak for not implementing all the serious flaws outlined by Raymond Chen in the original specification? Are you saying that PHP would have been a better product if its configuration lacked Unicode support and stopped working after you exceeded 64KB?
I don't think any sane person could make that argument, so I'm assuming you're just being difficult here. After all, you're the one usually with the stance that just because something's been broken a long time doesn't mean we shouldn't fix it; and that's what happened here: the developer saw serious deficiencies in the original spec, and fixed them. And you're opposed to it???
Would it placate you if he published a INI v2 spec?
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@nonpartisan said:
an IQ higher than the latest Chrome version
In a few years this will be a high compliment.
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@joe.edwards said:
@nonpartisan said:
an IQ higher than the latest Chrome version
In a fewyearsdays this will be a high compliment.
FTFY
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@joe.edwards said:
@nonpartisan said:
Indeed. So for context my phone was running Chrome 29 at the time I originally posted that.an IQ higher than the latest Chrome version
In a few years this will be a high compliment.
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This thread in a nutshell:
"I don't know how to use or develop on Linux therefor Linux is terrible and bass-ackwards."
Shit man, using mv to rename stuff isn't a hard concept to grasp. The first time you learn to use it, sure, I understand the confusion. mv moves files. A file can moved to a new destination with a new or same name. That's all you should have to hear to get that "Oh, I can just mv files to their current location with a new name."
Asking how to set up web applications and deploy projects? Might as well be asking how to edit a file. There is no one Supreme Answer. It depends on the application, your experience, team size, environment, deployment process, etc.
My suggestion for you is to go tell your boss you don't know wtf you are doing and they should hire a jr. sys admin while giving you a pay cut.
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@nonpartisan said:
Don't bitch at anyone on the forum for mis-naming php.ini; no one here did it.
Are you sure about that one? You really should stop with the spokeperson syndrome.
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@nonpartisan said:
The file is an application configuration file that got hit during an ungraceful shutdown. CHKDSK says the filesystem is clean save for an orphan cluster that held part of the configuration file in question. Now my application isn't working.
The only filesystem in the past 20/30 years where this was a real problem was the FAT variants. Nobody uses them for applications any more; they're only really on memory sticks now. Real computers use filesystems that are designed to be much more resistant to abuse. (Paranoid programmers then use a heavily tested database engine on top of that, so that they get true transactional updates. Most programmers aren't that paranoid though.)None of which has anything to do with what OS you're using.
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@dkf said:
Real computers use filesystems that are designed to be much more resistant to abuse.
In the case Ender cited above, the issue was caused by a one-bit error in a Registry file header and the result was complete inaccessibility of the Registry hive concerned and a non-starting system. The error was most likely a RAM glitch (alpha particle hit? noise spike?) because the header checksum was consistent with the erroneous header value.
It is of course completely impossible to render a computer immune to all conceivable single-bit errors because opcodes. However, the files holding registry hives need to get rewritten any time any value inside them changes, and the Registry holds frequently-updated state information as well as what would normally be thought of as configuration, so those writes happen quite frequently. Together, those two facts make the Registry a single point of failure with a relatively high risk of failing. This is exactly why Windows goes to such lengths to preserve its integrity, with application-level journalling and an inbuilt Registry equivalent of chkdsk.
The point about using ordinary files in the ordinary filesystem to hold config, rather than a special-purpose loop-mounted strongly-typed filesystem like the Registry, is that the config information gets the benefit of journalling and filesystem checks that need to be done anyway. Well designed filesystems are resilient against corruption because they maintain redundant copies of important metadata. It would be incredibly rare for a single-bit error on disk to cause complete inaccessibility of any modern filesystem.
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@ubersoldat said:
Man, I'm sooooo tired of reading stupid ass rants like this that I'm starting to wonder if much more so called "IT" professionals are simply spoiled brats who their parents never told them what work is and that they sucked at everything they did.
You're complaining about a set of tools that have been around for more than 30 years, that you don't even comprehend how they work and that your so self-impossed genius is above reading a single man page. Yes, Bash is broken, ugh! The terminal is so stupid, bah!
I wouldn't have wasted my time answering your autodefensive post (because clearly you are the problem) if it wasn't because someone might read this and feel entitled to think in the same wrong way of blaming the tool for their incompetency.
One last thing, it's not "Ubuntu", it's not Linux, it's not even whatever shell you're using (you probably don't even know, because, come on, you're a genius who can't afford to read), it's your incompetence which fails to rename a file.
The ones of us not writing stupid rants are working. You don't know who we are. You don't hear from us. But if one of us goes missing, all you will be left with is a screaming moron on the other side of the phone telling you how your bank account went missing because the Unix commandline doesn't have good discoverability.
Have a nice day.
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@Mo6eB said:
The ones of us not writing stupid rants are working. You don't know who we are. You don't hear from us. But if one of us goes missing, all you will be left with is a screaming moron on the other side of the phone telling you how your bank account went missing because the Unix commandline doesn't have good discoverability.
Have a nice day.
