Git git git git git git git git heroku git git heroku git git git git git



  • @boomzilla said:

    I never have any problem with ssh. So long as I'm not on a MS machine. OTOH, I can RDP from Linux no problem and I can easily get to Windows file shares from Linux. So why can't MS just fucking support ssh like the rest of the world? is the question you should be asking.

    "Why does Microsoft use a protocol that works automatically and not one where I have to dig out an invisible file somewhere deep down in my disk, copy 47 characters from it, paste them into a website, then maybe if I'm lucky I can connect but I still get a warning every single time about the 'trusted hosts list' I don't understand?"

    The answer is duh.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    Why does Microsoft use a protocol that works automatically and not one where I have to dig out an invisible file somewhere deep down in my disk, copy 47 characters from it, paste them into a website, then maybe if I'm lucky I can connect but I still get a warning every single time about the 'trusted hosts list' I don't understand?

    Why are you doing all that shit instead of just clicking on some tiny connection script? I thought you cared about usability.


  • ♿ (Parody)

    @blakeyrat said:

    @boomzilla said:
    I never have any problem with ssh. So long as I'm not on a MS machine. OTOH, I can RDP from Linux no problem and I can easily get to Windows file shares from Linux. So why can't MS just fucking support ssh like the rest of the world? is the question you should be asking.

    "Why does Microsoft use a protocol that works automatically and not one where I have to dig out an invisible file somewhere deep down in my disk, copy 47 characters from it, paste them into a website, then maybe if I'm lucky I can connect but I still get a warning every single time about the 'trusted hosts list' I don't understand?"

    The answer is duh.

    You don't necessarily need ssh keys to use ssh. It's an option for a server to require them. They require a little bit of setup and then make your life a lot easier. Of course, you have to be careful with them, but you don't have to deal with typing in passwords all the time. Or maybe you secretly admire durowin for admitting what you cannot: that you don't think security is good.

    Maybe the question is...why doesn't Microsoft have something that does what ssh does?

    Anyways, thanks for demonstrating my previous point about your interest in and ability to learn.



  • @boomzilla said:

    You don't necessarily need ssh keys to use ssh.

    I do.

    @boomzilla said:

    They require a little bit of setup and then make your life a lot easier.

    No. No they do not.

    Especially when the site that requires that setup fails to mention it in their documentation. Like Heroku for example.

    @boomzilla said:

    Of course, you have to be careful with them, but you don't have to deal with typing in passwords all the time.

    I'd rather type in the password. Now if I decide to do a Heroku deploy from my laptop I have to do that whole stupid setup again. Oh and if I go back to my desktop an hour later, now I have to do that whole stupid setup AGAIN AGAIN.

    Tying authentication to *computer* instead of *user* is fucking retarded.

    @boomzilla said:

    Or maybe you secretly admire durowin for admitting what you cannot: that you don't think security is good.

    You must first demonstrate Microsoft's RDP implementation is less secure.

    Wait, you're boomzilla. What am I talking about. You only understand grunts and chirps.

    @boomzilla said:

    Maybe the question is...why doesn't Microsoft have something that does what ssh does?

    Because they already have something better.

    @boomzilla said:

    Anyways, thanks for demonstrating my previous point about your interest in and ability to learn.

    I'm happy to learn. The problem is these products have no learning curve whatsoever.

    Computers are hard-to-use. This is a problem. A huge problem. Companies like GitHub and Heroku (and Git's developers) are not solving this problem. They are making the problem worse. They should be criticized for that. I am criticizing them for that.



  • @boomzilla said:

    you don't have to deal with typing in passwords all the time

    Ever seen how the /savecred option on the Windows runas command works? Look into it, it will make you laugh.

    The particular thing that made me laugh the hardest is finding out the hard way that if you have ever actually used /savecred for any purpose, then any subsequent net use - say, the one in a domain logon script - will default to using the credentials saved with /savecred, instead of the logged-in user's credentials, when connecting to network shares.

    Blakey's rather baffled approach to security is really no surprise if he's working with a system designed by people who would do that.



  • I am hating my own subject line so I am changing it

    @flabdablet said:

    Ever seen how the /savecred option on the Windows runas command works? Look into it, it will make you laugh.

    The particular thing that made me laugh the hardest is finding out the hard way that if you have ever actually used /savecred for any purpose, then any subsequent net use - say, the one in a domain logon script - will default to using the credentials saved with /savecred, instead of the logged-in user's credentials, when connecting to network shares.

    Blakey's rather baffled approach to security is really no surprise if he's working with a system designed by people who would do that.

    Look you're the super space alien huge brained security genius. Fine, whatever. I don't give a shit.

    All I care about is that Git and Heroku are terrible products that are fucking awful to use. That is the focus of this thread. Now go the fuck away.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    Especially when the site that requires that setup fails to mention it in their documentation. Like Heroku for example.

    @boomzilla said:

    Of course, you have to be careful with them, but you don't have to deal with typing in passwords all the time.

    I'd rather type in the password. Now if I decide to do a Heroku deploy from my laptop I have to do that whole stupid setup again. Oh and if I go back to my desktop an hour later, now I have to do that whole stupid setup AGAIN AGAIN.

    Dafuq?

    Blakey, you do understand you can copy the key to another computer, right? And failing that, you can probably put multiple keys into your heroku account. I know GitHub supports multiple ssh keys per user.

    The point of a ssh key is that the remote server never knows your password (or private key) at any point. If you use password auth, anyone who has the server's private key can read your password in transit. This is true of ANY system that uses a password that gets sent over the network.


  • ♿ (Parody)

    @blakeyrat said:

    @boomzilla said:
    You don't necessarily need ssh keys to use ssh.

    I do.

    No, you don't any more than anyone else does. You need them with Heroku, apparently. Anyways, this wasn't an attempt at pedantic dickweedery, except to try to explain a little about this ssh stuff. How long have you been in your time pod again?

    @blakeyrat said:

    @boomzilla said:
    Maybe the question is...why doesn't Microsoft have something that does what ssh does?

    Because they already have something better.

    They have something different. It's useful in some ways that ssh is not, and is not useful in ways that ssh is. Well, there's a prerequisite for keyboard use, so I can see why you're against it.

    @blakeyrat said:

    Computers are hard-to-use. This is a problem. A huge problem. Companies like GitHub and Heroku (and Git's developers) are not solving this problem. They are making the problem worse. They should be criticized for that. I am criticizing them for that.

    I agree with you (well, I have zero experience with Heroku and GitHub, and very little with git) in principle, but this is mainly a documentation problem, which is huge and all over. The most reliable documentation I've ever found, that helped me solve a problem in how to use software was in man pages. Otherwise, it's asking people or looking on forums or whatever.

    We like to poke at you because you so obviously try hard not to learn about things. Not that a lot of your criticism is invalid, but you don't figure anything out even after it's spelled out for you. We are amused by your willful ignorance and blind rage.


  • ♿ (Parody)

    @blakeyrat said:

    That is the focus of this thread.

    Threads around here don't have "focus," though some have attractors.



  • Re: I am hating my own subject line so I am changing it

    @Ben L. said:

    Blakey, you do understand you can copy the key to another computer, right?

    Not according to the guide I read. If that's wrong, well, then you open source people write shitty software and shitty documentation. HEY HERE'S AN IDEA: why don't you make a system so easy to use I don't even NEED to Google 57 websites whenever I have problems? HOW ABOUT THAT?

    @Ben L. said:

    And failing that, you can probably put multiple keys into your heroku account.

    There's only one text field for it.

    @Ben L. said:

    If you use password auth, anyone who has the server's private key can read your password in transit.

    OH NOES the server admin can read the password I sent to the server. OH NOES!!! SKY FALLING! PANIC!!

    Oh wait doesn't the server admin already have 453272 different ways to impersonate me if he wanted?

    @Ben L. said:

    This is true of ANY system that uses a password that gets sent over the network.

    And I use 99.99% of them without trouble every day. If it's good enough for Amazon, Google, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc why the fuck isn't it good enough for Heroku?

    Look, you are still missing the point because you have the IQ of a insect: I DO NOT GIVE A SHIT HOW THEY DO AUTH AS LONG AS IT'S EASY TO USE. Ok? Got that? Is it slowly sinking into your jelly-like skull? Are you making firing some neurons up in that shrunken brain of yours? Will your reply utterly ignore this paragraph and still go on about things I don't give a shit for? (Survey says: yes.)



  • @blakeyrat said:

    Now if I decide to do a Heroku deploy from my laptop I have to do that whole stupid setup again. Oh and if I go back to my desktop an hour later, now I have to do that whole stupid setup AGAIN AGAIN.

    Tying authentication to *computer* instead of *user* is fucking retarded.

    Actually, ssh authentication by public key is tied to the key, which is just a pair of files: one with no filename extension containing a private key, and one with a .pub extension containing a public key. Both files need to be in the same folder, which can be anywhere you like; some ssh clients will refuse to work unless that folder's access permissions are set so that only the current user can see inside it. The default folder location on Windows is usually %USERPROFILE%\.ssh and the default key filenames are id_rsa and id_rsa.pub; if you use these defaults then most ssh-based stuff will use public-key authentication instead of asking for a password.

    One way to manage keys is to generate them independently on every computer you use, which makes your ssh identity per-user-per-computer, but there is nothing stopping you from simply copying key files around to suit your own use case. Ssh-based command line tools will generally have a -i option that lets you specify the pathname of the private key you want to authenticate with, which lets you use different keys with different services if you want to.

    I know virtually nothing about heroku, but I had no difficulty at all tracking down its ssh key management help page; looks like you could install one key for your laptop and another for your desktop if you'd rather not simply use the same key files on both.

    /me sits back, sips scotch and awaits blakeyrat explosion for unsolicited help



  • Re: I am hating my own subject line so I am changing it

    @boomzilla said:

    I agree with you (well, I have zero experience with Heroku and GitHub, and very little with git)

    Then don't fucking come here and tell me how great they are! You haven't even FUCKING USED THEM! FUCK OFF AND DIE BOOMZILLA YOU ARE THE WORST PERSON FUCK OFF AND DIE

    @boomzilla said:

    We like to poke at you because you so obviously try hard not to learn about things.

    That is a fucking blatant lie and you know it. I love using and learning about new things.

    What I refuse to do is learn about a new thing by being required to read a 4373424 page textbook on it before being able to execute even a single command. There's this concept called a "learning curve". Everything has a learning curve. Even the most difficult-to-use 3D modeling program (Blender, BTW) lets you simply drag a sphere from the toolbar and render it without looking at a help file. Do you understand? Even the shittiest GUI program, you can open up and do something interesting in it right away. Because they have a learning curve, they are learnable.

    You can't with Git. That's not my problem, that's Git's problem. So maybe you're right, I'm not "learning" Git. Fine. But whose fault is that? Mine? Or the team that published the unlearnable software? Hint: your answer is going to be "blame the user" which is always the wrong answer.

    These concepts aren't fucking new! There were reams of material on all of this ages before even Apple started building the first usable GUI! Why the fuck hasn't software like Git gotten the fucking message? Why the fuck are they still developing like it's 1974? WHY THE FUCK AREN'T YOU IDIOTS USING IT DEMANDING BETTER!? You're being served shit and you love it!

    And it's not just wrong from a software development perspective, it's wrong from a *moral* perspective. It's wrong to build a building without a wheelchair ramp, we as a society agree that a person shouldn't be prohibited from entering your building due to a difference in physical capabilities. It's equally wrong to build software that excludes people of different physical capabilities.

    And while the open source camp is jeering and mocking Microsoft (and to a lesser extent Apple), those companies are doing their damndest to ensure *everybody* can use their software-- they put in alternate display modes, they make everything accessible from both the CLI and the GUI, they add text-to-speech and speech-to-text features, they support alternative pointing devices and work fine if you only have a pointing device but also work fine if you only have a text-entry device. Because they know that is the *RIGHT THING TO DO*.

    Do you understand? The Git team didn't just build software that's "quirky", they built software with an eye to exclusiveness. They wanted to ensure nobody could use Git except for people exactly like them. That's despicable. That's criminal. Do you get it?

    THIS SHIT IS FUCKING IMPORTANT.


  • ♿ (Parody)

    @blakeyrat said:

    I DO NOT GIVE A SHIT HOW THEY DO AUTH AS LONG AS IT'S EASY TO USE

    "Easy to use" is not the same thing as" blakeyrat understands it," or even "good documentation exists." But you've intrigued me. I went to heroku, found the "Documentation" link and typed "ssh" into the search box. The second link was Managing Your SSH Keys.


  • ♿ (Parody)

    @blakeyrat said:

    Even the shittiest GUI program, you can open up and do something interesting in it right away. Because they have a learning curve, they are learnable.

    You can't with Git. That's not my problem, that's Git's problem.

    Multiple people have pointed out that you're completely wrong on this point. I can type "git" on the CLI and I get a basic reference on common usage and a way to get more information on a particular command. All I have to do is read it. Oh...I see what the problem is now.

    @blakeyrat said:

    Do you understand? The Git team didn't just build software that's "quirky", they built software with an eye to exclusiveness. They wanted to ensure nobody could use Git except for people exactly like them. That's despicable. That's criminal. Do you get it?

    I get that this is how you feel. Not everyone can pick things up quickly, and it takes different amounts of effort to become proficient in different things. For instance, if you don't understand the DVCS paradigm and are stuck in a subversion-style mode, then no amount of intuitive software will help you understand how to avoid and fix some of the issues you've encountered. I'm not talking about actual bugs (like Morbs' "git ate my repo" or whatever...that's obvious shit) but what stuff like what happens when you forget to pull and merge other stuff before you push out your changes.

    I've seen other very bright people struggle with this concept, because they want it to work just like their old svn works. You're the same way with everything Windows / Visual Studio. It's like it doesn't occur to you that there could be a different way of doing things, so nothing makes sense from your frame of reference. My favorite example of this was how you've never been able to understand how apt repositories work and can be used to centralize software management, even after multiple people explained it multiple times.



  • @boomzilla said:

    "Easy to use" is not the same thing as" blakeyrat understands it," or even "good documentation exists." But you've intrigued me. I went to heroku, found the "Documentation" link and typed "ssh" into the search box.

    Why would I have done that? What I was trying to do was deploy. Type in "heroku deploy" and see if you get any information on SSH keys. (Hint: you get this page, which I've already linked in the thread, which says NOTHING about the SSH key requirement.)

    I love your logic here. "Well obviously if you want to deploy to Heroku from Git, you should have Googled "SSH" because duh!" Brilliant.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    They wanted to ensure nobody could use Git except for people exactly like them. That's despicable. That's criminal.

    That's a straw man.

    Git's target user base is people who write code for a living, because the problems git solves are problems faced by those people. The target users are not "exactly like" git's developers, merely people capable of writing and maintaining code and therefore in need of tools that address the problems inherent in doing so. If you have the skills required to write and maintain computer programs complex enough to need a version control system, you have the skills required to script with git or any other CLI-based tool.

    The existence of a minority of users who also benefit from git's capabilities but don't have those skills says nothing at all about the suitability of git for its target user base, or the morality of it even having a target user base in the first place.

    If the only reason you can be productive with source code is because your IDE takes care of details you have trouble keeping track of yourself, but you can't be productive with git because your IDE doesn't know about git commands, why blame git for that and not the IDE? Git is just another computer language.



  • @boomzilla said:

    Multiple people have pointed out that you're completely wrong on this point. I can type "git" on the CLI and I get a basic reference on common usage and a way to get more information on a particular command. All I have to do is read it. Oh...I see what the problem is now.

    You didn't even read my last post. Fuck you Boomzilla. I mean that from the bottom of my heart. I joke around with a lot of people on this forum and I throw around a lot of dumb insults, but you are the only one here I truly and honestly hate.

    @boomzilla said:

    I get that this is how you feel. Not everyone can pick things up quickly, and it takes different amounts of effort to become proficient in different things.

    That is true; and it's the job of the software developer to ensure that the majority of people can learn and use their software effectively. If the software can be improved, it is the job of the software developer to improve and evolve it over time. Git's developers failed at their original task, and they're also failing to evolve the software forward. Git is bad software, and the Git developers are bad developers.

    @boomzilla said:

    For instance, if you don't understand the DVCS paradigm and are stuck in a subversion-style mode, then no amount of intuitive software will help you understand how to avoid and fix some of the issues you've encountered.

    How would you know? The intuitive software doesn't exist. You're just pontificating about some fantasy-universe here.

    I would argue that, BY DEFINITION, if an intuitive DVCS program existed, then I would be able to understand it quite easily-- otherwise, the software would not be intuitive at all.

    @boomzilla said:

    I'm not talking about actual bugs (like Morbs' "git ate my repo" or whatever...that's obvious shit) but what stuff like what happens when you forget to pull and merge other stuff before you push out your changes.

    I've seen other very bright people struggle with this concept, because they want it to work just like their old svn works.

    Blah blah blah. I'm talking about Git the software.

    And I have no particular attachment to Subversion, except that I've used Subversion on Windows and compared to Git it was extremely pleasant. I also have no particular unwillingness to learn DVCS, but you know that, you're just ignoring that particular point so you can make me hate you more.

    @boomzilla said:

    You're the same way with everything Windows / Visual Studio. It's like it doesn't occur to you that there could be a different way of doing things, so nothing makes sense from your frame of reference.

    The only reason I like Visual Studio is that it's the only IDE that's actually useful and usable. Obviously I know there are "different" ways of doing things; the only question that concerns me is whether there are better ways of doing things. (For example, there's no point to me learning Eclipse, a "different" way of doing things, since it's not a "better" way of doing things. It is in fact much shittier.) So once again you're missing the point in an epic fashion.

    If you can suggest *better* development tools than Visual Studio, than please be my guest. I'll happily try them, just as I've happily tried: Eclipse, NetBeans, IronRuby, Aptana, GitHub for Windows, etc in the past. You've read my posts here, you know, you know that I've tried all of those products. So don't lie and claim otherwise; you can use Google to search this forum if you need a refresher.

    @boomzilla said:

    My favorite example of this was how you've never been able to understand how apt repositories work and can be used to centralize software management, even after multiple people explained it multiple times.

    What the fuck are you talking about. I know how APT repositories work.


  • ♿ (Parody)

    @blakeyrat said:

    @boomzilla said:
    "Easy to use" is not the same thing as" blakeyrat understands it," or even "good documentation exists." But you've intrigued me. I went to heroku, found the "Documentation" link and typed "ssh" into the search box.

    Why would I have done that? What I was trying to do was deploy. Type in "heroku deploy" and see if you get any information on SSH keys. (Hint: you get this page, which I've already linked in the thread, which says NOTHING about the SSH key requirement.)

    I love your logic here. "Well obviously if you want to deploy to Heroku from Git, you should have Googled "SSH" because duh!" Brilliant.

    Huh? I didn't google anything. This is a tough problem. How much of the underlying tools do you document in your project? In this case, you have to ask yourself...how am I connecting and communicating with the heroku servers? I dunno...I know git uses various methods, ssh being among them. How did you have your git client set up to authenticate? Wouldn't / shouldn't that have given you the ssh clue?

    OK, so let's start at the beginning:
    @Getting started said:

    Step 3: Login

    After installing the Toolbelt, you’ll have access to the heroku command from your command shell. Authenticate using the email address and password you used when creating your Heroku account:

    If you have previously uploaded a key to Heroku, we assume you will keep using it and do not prompt you about creating a new one during login. If you would prefer to create and upload a new key after login, simply run heroku keys:add.

    $ heroku login
    Enter your Heroku credentials.
    Email: adam@example.com
    Password: 
    Could not find an existing public key.
    Would you like to generate one? [Yn] 
    Generating new SSH public key.
    Uploading ssh public key /Users/adam/.ssh/id_rsa.pub
    

    Hmmm....



  • @flabdablet said:

    @blakeyrat said:
    They wanted to ensure nobody could use Git except for people exactly like them. That's despicable. That's criminal.

    That's a straw man.

    '

    It's truth. It's capital-T Truth.

    @flabdablet said:

    Git's target user base is people who write code for a living, because the problems git solves are problems faced by those people.

    I write code for a living; I can't make heads or tails out of Git. I know a dozen other people who are the same way. Every time I post something like the tirade that started this thread, I get tons of "amen, brother!"

    Once again we roll back to: Git is a bad product, and Git's developers are bad developers. Since they obviously did not satisfy their use-case.

    @flabdablet said:

    The target users are not "exactly like" git's developers, merely people capable of writing and maintaining code and therefore in need of tools that address the problems inherent in doing so. If you have the skills required to write and maintain computer programs complex enough to need a version control system, you have the skills required to script with git or any other CLI-based tool.

    That statement is demonstrably false. I'm your counter-example.

    @flabdablet said:

    The existence of a minority of users who also benefit from git's capabilities but don't have those skills says nothing at all about the suitability of git for its target user base, or the morality of it even having a target user base in the first place.

    Git's only target base should be: "human beings who need to track revisions of documents". But even if it were, "software developers who need to track revisions of documents", as I pointed out above, they've failed utterly at that.

    The only explanation is that that is not their target base. Their target base is actually, "software developers who use the CLI and think exactly like Linux Torvalds who need to track revisions of documents". And when you get to that level, yes, that's where I say developing to that level is immoral and wrong and software like that should never have been released to the public.

    @flabdablet said:

    If the only reason you can be productive with source code is because your IDE takes care of details you have trouble keeping track of yourself, but you can't be productive with git because your IDE doesn't know about git commands, why blame git for that and not the IDE?

    The Git developers released Git 1/3rd of the way done. If they had finished their product, this would be a non-issue because my IDE would speak it... it's not like Visual Studio lacks hooks for source control systems, and it's not like Visual Studio is an unpopular product only used by a dozen people.

    Once again we roll back to: Git is a bad product, and Git's developers are bad developers. Because they didn't even finish writing their program before releasing it to the public. (And in the, what, 7 years?, since releasing it, they've never revised it to fix the shortcomings.)

    @flabdablet said:

    Git is just another computer language.

    Well I can't fault that statement, since of course it's technically true. But usability is important for languages too. Computer languages need to have consistent, predictable syntax and keywords. Git doesn't have that. On the contrary, Git creates its own terminology radically different from any other similar tool. Computer languages need to have useful, descriptive error messaging. Git certainly doesn't have that, not even remotely close. So Git is a failure by this criteria, as well.

    Is there any criteria by which Git is a success? Any?



  • @boomzilla said:

    Huh? I didn't google anything.

    Look, the TASK I was trying to accomplish was to deploy a site to Heroku. Why would I have searched for anything except "Heroku deploy site from git" or something similar?

    @boomzilla said:

    This is a tough problem. How much of the underlying tools do you document in your project?

    Well here' a pro-tip: on the page I linked it gives a step-by-step instruction from start to end of the task. It's just COMPLETELY MISSING THE STEP ABOUT SSH. So how about this to answer your question: if you're going to make documentation consisting of step-by-step instructions, DON'T NEGLECT TO INCLUDE THE FIRST STEP.

    @boomzilla said:

    In this case, you have to ask yourself...how am I connecting and communicating with the heroku servers?

    I don't give a shit. This is all implementation detail. The only thing I care about is, "I want to deploy this website in Git to Heroku." That's it. In an ideal world, that's the ONLY thing I need to know (other than the required passwords of course.) Ideally there's a big-ass icon on my desktop which says, "Deploy to Heroku" and I double-click that and it JUST FUCKING WORKS.

    But no. That would be too easy. We're open source! We need to make things unnecessarily fucking hard for no reason! It would take upwards of 4 hours to make a GUI to deploy an app, what a waste of our time! It's much more efficient to waste the time of thousands of clients!

    @boomzilla said:

    I dunno...I know git uses various methods, ssh being among them.

    Well then you know more than me. But ask yourself this: why should you know that? It's implementation detail. I don't give a shit if it connects with SSH or Telnet or fucking messenger pigeons. I only give a shit that it works.

    @boomzilla said:

    How did you have your git client set up to authenticate?

    I downloaded it from GitHub and then typed in my GitHub username and password.

    @boomzilla said:

    Wouldn't / shouldn't that have given you the ssh clue?

    I can't see how.

    @boomzilla said:

    OK, so let's start at the beginning:

    So again, you're saying if I my task is "deploy app to Heroku", I should have Googled for something UTTERLY DIFFERENT. I'm sorry Boomzilla but I do not have your telepathic powers. If I want to deploy an app to Heroku, I type "deploy app to Heroku" into Google and follow the resulting instructions.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    Even the most difficult-to-use 3D modeling program (Blender, BTW) lets you simply drag a sphere from the toolbar and render it without looking at a help file.
     

    Blender is kind of like the vim of GUI applications, so I'll believe that when I see it.

     



  • @blakeyrat said:

    Their target base is actually, "software developers who use the CLI and think exactly like Linux Torvalds
    +1



  • @dhromed said:

    Blender is kind of like the vim of GUI applications, so I'll believe that when I see it.

    Well you can't do anything MORE than render a primitive. But yeah I figured out how to render a primitive in about 5 minutes. Then I got hopelessly stuck. Also I got the window panes in some weird configuration where the editing ones went away and I couldn't figure out how to get it back. Then I uninstalled it.


  • ♿ (Parody)

    @blakeyrat said:

    You didn't even read my last post.

    Eh...maybe I didn't at the time I typed that. The way you think and talk about things is so unintuitive, it's practically immoral for you to be sharing your thoughts.

    @blakeyrat said:

    Fuck you Boomzilla. I mean that from the bottom of my heart. I joke around with a lot of people on this forum and I throw around a lot of dumb insults, but you are the only one here I truly and honestly hate.

    You're a funny little man-child. It makes me happy that I've touched at least one soul on this forum.

    @blakeyrat said:

    I'm talking about Git the software.

    I understand that. My point, which a literate person would understand is that you'll never be proficient with the software if you can't comprehend the things it's trying to do. And the DVCS paradigm is subtly but critically different from the way current CVS programs work. So since you don't understand the concepts behind the implementation, you don't have a chance at figuring out unfamiliar jargon. You don't even know what questions to ask.

    So while, again, you have a lot of valid criticisms against git the software, some of them are not, simply because you're using the tool incorrectly, like trying to, urm...write your resume in Visual Studio or something.

    @blakeyrat said:
    What the fuck are you talking about. I know how APT repositories work.

    Oh. So you understand now how it's easy to incorporate 3rd party repositories? And then you only need a single thing that checks for software updates? Because you never seemed to get that bit. Do you hate it as much as I do that MS hasn't figured out such a simple and useful thing yet?



  • @blakeyrat said:

    Well you can't do anything MORE than render a primitive.
     

    Phew! I was worried my poster child for bad UI might have mended its ways.



  • @boomzilla said:

    Eh...maybe I didn't at the time I typed that. The way you think and talk about things is so unintuitive, it's practically immoral for you to be sharing your thoughts.

    "Oh my God, he's not part of the group-think! Quick mock him! Dismiss his ideas!"

    Fuck you. I don't know what kind of commie shithole you grew up in, but I'm an American, and in our country we value the open and free exchange of ideas.

    @boomzilla said:

    I understand that. My point, which a literate person would understand is that you'll never be proficient with the software if you can't comprehend the things it's trying to do.

    If the software requires that understanding, the software must teach that understanding.

    @boomzilla said:

    So while, again, you have a lot of valid criticisms against git the software, some of them are not, simply because you're using the tool incorrectly, like trying to, urm...write your resume in Visual Studio or something.

    Which specific criticism is not valid? In what way am I using the tool incorrectly? Please. Enlighten me.

    @boomzilla said:

    Oh. So you understand now how it's easy to incorporate 3rd party repositories? And then you only need a single thing that checks for software updates? Because you never seemed to get that bit.

    I honestly have no fucking clue what you're talking about. Of course I know APT can connect to 3rd party repositories.

    @boomzilla said:

    Do you hate it as much as I do that MS hasn't figured out such a simple and useful thing yet?

    Microsoft won't implement it for legal reasons, not technical reasons.



  • @boomzilla said:

    You're a funny little man-child. It makes me happy that I've touched at least one soul on this forum.
     

    I'm going to picture your face and voice as Gul Dukat from now on.

    @boomzilla said:

    My point, which a literate person would understand is that you'll never be proficient with the software if you can't comprehend the things it's trying to do.

    That's not right. See Blender, for example. Obviously it's trying to offer the same tools as 3DSMax, Cinema, Softimage XSI, etc. I have used these programs. I have done 3D modelling and scene rendering in various forms. I know what to expect. But Blender... sheesh! I like to believe there's a usable program in there, but it's trying really hard to be opaque!

     


  • ♿ (Parody)

    @blakeyrat said:

    @boomzilla said:
    OK, so let's start at the beginning:

    So again, you're saying if I my task is "deploy app to Heroku", I should have Googled for something UTTERLY DIFFERENT. I'm sorry Boomzilla but I do not have your telepathic powers. If I want to deploy an app to Heroku, I type "deploy app to Heroku" into Google and follow the resulting instructions.

    I don't know why you keep dragging google into this. I found all this stuff using the search box on heroku. The page I linked is their "Getting Started" page. Are you saying that in order to use some trendy service you shouldn't see if they have any documentation on how to do things? I believe I searched for "git configure" when I stumbled upon this arcane poorly labeled obvious place to start.

    Are you really this allergic to common sense? It's like you have no problem solving or critical thinking skills when you think there might be an open source type of license lurking nearby.

    @blakeyrat said:

    This is all implementation detail. The only thing I care about is, "I want to deploy this website in Git to Heroku." That's it. In an ideal world, that's the ONLY thing I need to know (other than the required passwords of course.)

    Yes. How did you get started with heroku? If you followed their Getting Started page, you'd see that this ssh key business is taken care of right there. It's OK, you don't have to admit that you're being an idiot, we can all see that clearly enough.

    @blakeyrat said:

    @boomzilla said:
    How did you have your git client set up to authenticate?

    I downloaded it from GitHub and then typed in my GitHub username and password.

    And that would magically work with heroku or something? Does it surprise you when other computers will ask for your credentials to log in after you've clearly logged into the one you're using?



  • @blakeyrat said:

    but I'm an American, and in our country we value the open and free exchange of ideas.

     

    HAHAHAHAHA, no no we CLAIM to value that but the vast majority do their level best to insure that it doesn't happen.


  • ♿ (Parody)

    @blakeyrat said:

    @boomzilla said:
    Eh...maybe I didn't at the time I typed that. The way you think and talk about things is so unintuitive, it's practically immoral for you to be sharing your thoughts.

    "Oh my God, he's not part of the group-think! Quick mock him! Dismiss his ideas!"

    Fuck you. I don't know what kind of commie shithole you grew up in, but I'm an American, and in our country we value the open and free exchange of ideas.

    You don't even remember your own posts well enough to know when they're being parodied.

    @blakeyrat said:

    Which specific criticism is not valid? In what way am I using the tool incorrectly? Please. Enlighten me.

    Based on previous things you said, you don't seem to understand the commit then merge paradigm and the consequence that you often end up with multiple heads in a particular branch (this is mercurial terminology, I think git calls them different things). I've seen a lot of people run into trouble with this. They don't understand why they can't just commit and then push their stuff up to a central repo and have it all magically merge with whatever everyone else is doing. They don't understand why this paradigm is good for them and the resist it and resent it because they can't work like the always used to.

    @blakeyrat said:

    @boomzilla said:
    Do you hate it as much as I do that MS hasn't figured out such a simple and useful thing yet?

    Microsoft won't implement it for legal reasons, not technical reasons.

    People like to say this, but it makes no sense to me, and sounds like something paranoid you'd read on slashdot. Seriously, what are the legal issues that prevent 3rd party commercial organizations from willingly supplying a URL to Windows Update (or whatever) that it could periodically check and, say, download an updated MSI file and install it? Is there some serious legal opinion somewhere that I've missed?



  • @locallunatic said:

    HAHAHAHAHA, no no we CLAIM to value that but the vast majority do their level best to insure that it doesn't happen.
     

    Why do you desire to disrupt this beautiful verbal duel between Kira Nerys and Gul Dukat?



  • @boomzilla said:

    Yes. How did you get started with heroku?

    I didn't. I was handed this bullshit project when someone else on my team went on vacation, and then of course the site needed some "emergency" fixes two days later.

    If I had had anything to do with the conception of this project, I can guarantee I'd never have picked Heroku. I don't get what it offers that you can't already get for cheaper by using AWS directly.

    The project already existed on Heroku. The Git repository was already connected to it (or so I thought-- turns out no, that's machine-specific, not something stored in the repo itself). Why would I have visited the "get started with Heroku" page when it was already started?

    @boomzilla said:

    And that would magically work with heroku or something?

    See above. I had no idea the Heroku connection didn't travel with the repo. How would I have known that? My co-worker, when he handed it off, said it was all set up. (In retrospect, maybe he assumed it traveled with the repo also. Who knows. He's on vacation, I can't ask.)

    Again: I am not telepathic. I'm sorry I'm not telepathic, but sometimes we just have to cope with our lack of superpowers and I'm doing the best I can. Despite your retarded criticisms here, you *do* realize I was able to successfully publish the code, right?



  • @boomzilla said:

    They don't understand why they can't just commit and then push their stuff up to a central repo and have it all magically merge with whatever everyone else is doing. They don't understand why this paradigm is good for them and the resist it and resent it because they can't work like the always used to.
     

    wall of text!

    I'm a VSS user and see trouble a mile coming when/if we work on sizeable web projects with more than 1 developer at a time. This one time I was doing layout/css stuff while my coworker did implementation stuff. Sometimes we'd have work on the same file. That's bound to be a merge problem whether you work on a local copy or on the same server. I first got the impression that my work and his work were going to be two separate updates to the production website. so that's going to be a problem with one update clobbering the other. Problems problems problems. I was told to keep a list of files I'd changed in some text file or whatever. I balked at this obvious nonsense, but I have no experience with The Better Way and couldn't offer good counter methods. In the end I think I just checked-in my stuff, my coworker did one last Get Latest, and made his build, and that was the one update. So I guess it worked out in the end... ?


  • ♿ (Parody)

    @dhromed said:

    @boomzilla said:
    You're a funny little man-child. It makes me happy that I've touched at least one soul on this forum.

    I'm going to picture your face and voice as Gul Dukat from now on.

    I approve.

    @dhromed said:

    @boomzilla said:
    My point, which a literate person would understand is that you'll never be proficient with the software if you can't comprehend the things it's trying to do.

    That's not right. See Blender, for example. Obviously it's trying to offer the same tools as 3DSMax, Cinema, Softimage XSI, etc. I have used these programs. I have done 3D modelling and scene rendering in various forms. I know what to expect. But Blender... sheesh! I like to believe there's a usable program in there, but it's trying really hard to be opaque!

    Yes, I agree that it's possible to make utterly incomprehensible software. But imagine that you thought any of those was meant to be a 2D paint program. My point is that some things are the fault of shitty software and some things are the fault of people who don't know WTF they're doing. Some of it is like someone who only knows VB blaming Visual Studio because his C# code won't compile. I'm pointing out other problems, not dismissing shitty software. Blakeyrat has a rich history of not understanding things and of refusing simple corrective action in the name of usability purity or whatever.

    He won't really read this, but I agree that software should be better, and I try hard (and succeed a lot less than I'd like to admit) to make the stuff I build be user friendly and intuitive. But how do you argue with someone who disagrees that following a "Getting Started" tutorial is an intuitive way to get started with a service you're not familiar with?



  • @blakeyrat said:

    Why would I have visited the "get started with Heroku" page when it was already started?
     

    In such situations, I like to pretend that I'm not already "started".



  • @boomzilla said:

    But how do you argue with someone who disagrees that following a "Getting Started" tutorial is an intuitive way to get started with a service you're not familiar with?

    BECAUSE THE PROJECT WAS ALREADY STARTED YOU FUCKING DICK. Not just started, it was live and in "support mode". Why the fuck would I visit the "getting started" page when the project is already set up and live and running for like 8 months!? WHY? EXPLAIN TO ME WHY!?

    Goddamned the only bug I had to fix was that the username validation on the "reset password" page was subtlety different than the username validation elsewhere in the app, and therefore one of the client's users was unable to reset his password. It was a 1-line fix. The only reason it was an emergency was because the client came to us yelling about it. (He could have easily reset the password himself using the admin page.)



  • @boomzilla said:

    But imagine that you thought any of those was meant to be a 2D paint program.
     

    I'm not going into hypotheticals here when there's a rich vein of real software to be mined for examples.

    @boomzilla said:

    My point is that some things are the fault of shitty software and some things are the fault of people who don't know WTF they're doing.

    Some people praise the usability of blender. It's a matter of statistics. I don't really care. There's a whole forest of false reasoning that comes from that.* What matters to me is whether this case is shitty software or shitty user, or both.

    And now I'm going to make dinner, and then some Warframe with buddies. It's gonna be good. I need that morphics drop.



  • @Ben L. said:

    If you use password auth, anyone who has the server's private key can read your password in transit. This is true of ANY system that uses a password that gets sent over the network.

    So what? If someone has the server's private key, you're probably fucked anyway.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    Not just started, it was live and in "support mode". Why the fuck would I visit the "getting started" page when the project is already set up and live and running for like 8 months!? [...] Goddamned the only bug I had to fix was that the username validation on the "reset password" page was subtlety different than the username validation elsewhere in the app, and therefore one of the client's users was unable to reset his password. It was a 1-line fix.
     

    Oh god we could have prevented this entire thread!


  • ♿ (Parody)

    @dhromed said:

    Sometimes we'd have work on the same file. That's bound to be a merge problem whether you work on a local copy or on the same server.

    @dhromed said:
    In the end I think I just checked-in my stuff, my coworker did one last Get Latest, and made his build, and that was the one update. So I guess it worked out in the end... ?

    Yes, I guess it did. If you were working on different parts of the file, and those parts didn't really interact, then the danger of something bad happening was probably low. But think about the alternative. He pulled down your changes, and the VCS had to merge his changes with yours. Note that before he could commit, he probably had to do this (this is how svn works, at least). So in the case where your work can interfere with what he's doing, it can be difficult for him to know exactly what he changed vs what got further changed by the merge process.

    I like to use mercurial, and I'll tell you how this would have played out there. You would have committed and pushed your changes. He would have committed his changes and then tried to push. He'd get an error telling him that he'd be creating multiple heads (you can force it to do this, but it stops you by default). So then he'd pull your changes down and try to merge the both of them. In this case, it would have been a really simple operation (based on what you said). Then he'd commit the merged changes and push it up.

    But at the end, you have a record of the changes that you did as well as his changes, and you can see how the two were merged. And it's easy enough to go back and fix the merge if something went wrong, because you can easily see exactly what happened. As opposed to what did happen, which was merging stuff with uncommitted changes, which always scares me when using VCSes that do this.

    There's no particular reason that centralized version control needs to operate this way. I think it just didn't occur to people, or maybe the branching and merging utilities simply weren't mature enough until DVCS became big. But that's one reason why I will not choose to start anything new with a VCS that works that way.



  • @flabdablet said:

    oth files need to be in the same folder, which can be anywhere you like

    No they don't. You only need the private key to authenticate. I usually don't even keep public keys on my laptop.


  • ♿ (Parody)

    @blakeyrat said:

    @boomzilla said:
    But how do you argue with someone who disagrees that following a "Getting Started" tutorial is an intuitive way to get started with a service you're not familiar with?

    BECAUSE THE PROJECT WAS ALREADY STARTED YOU FUCKING DICK. Not just started, it was live and in "support mode". Why the fuck would I visit the "getting started" page when the project is already set up and live and running for like 8 months!? WHY? EXPLAIN TO ME WHY!?

    Oh, so did you take over the workstation of the developer who was in charge of this? No? THEN YOU WERE GETTING STARTED WITH HEROKU YOU IMBECILE.

    I know, I know. It's ridiculous to encourage people to become familiar with the tools and services they'll have to use. I like to joke about putting together bikes and stuff that the first thing you do is throw away the instructions, but I didn't think there were actually people dumb enough to believe that.

    @blakeyrat said:

    Goddamned the only bug I had to fix was that the username validation on the "reset password" page was subtlety different than the username validation elsewhere in the app, and therefore one of the client's users was unable to reset his password. It was a 1-line fix. The only reason it was an emergency was because the client came to us yelling about it. (He could have easily reset the password himself using the admin page.)

    Hey, I can't help it if your company puts out such immorally unintuitive software that users can't figure out how to change passwords. That's just wrong.



  • @flabdablet said:

    ...because the problems git solves are problems faced by those people.

    Bullshit. git's a clusterfuck. There was almost no thought into building a usable UI for it.

    @flabdablet said:

    If you have the skills required to write and maintain computer programs complex enough to need a version control system, you have the skills required to script with git or any other CLI-based tool.

    I could also write my own kernel. Why the fuck would I do that? Why would I waste my time using inferior tools? Your entire argument seems to be "Because you can!" which is just asinine.

    @flabdablet said:

    ...but you can't be productive with git because your IDE doesn't know about git commands, why blame git for that and not the IDE?

    Actually, he already said Visual Studio is the best git client he's used and he's complaining about the shitty CLI tool.

    @flabdablet said:

    Git is just another computer language.

    What the fuck? I think you were trying to make a point here, but I hope to God it wasn't this. Calling git a computer language is quite a stretch. Also, none of this changes the fact that git is a poorly-thought-out, poorly-executed "language". The UI is incredibly cumbersome for simple tasks; far more so than it needs to be.


  • ♿ (Parody)

    @blakeyrat said:

    The project already existed on Heroku. The Git repository was already connected to it (or so I thought-- turns out no, that's machine-specific, not something stored in the repo itself). Why would I have visited the "get started with Heroku" page when it was already started?

    Assuming the repo knew how to connect isn't totally unreasonable, though I don't think I would have assumed it. Anyway, as I stated before, if I were you, I would be getting started, personally with heroku, so I would read up a bit to see what I'd been thrown into.

    @blakeyrat said:

    Again: I am not telepathic. I'm sorry I'm not telepathic, but sometimes we just have to cope with our lack of superpowers and I'm doing the best I can. Despite your retarded criticisms here, you do realize I was able to successfully publish the code, right?

    Yes, I realize that you figured it out eventually. I'm pointing out that you got stuck, and instead of thinking something along the lines of, "Hmm, did I skip or mess up something in the process of getting this all to work?" you went into rant mode. I guess you contacted heroku support, which is a reasonable thing to do, but you seem incredibly non-proactive as far as figuring out what's wrong. That's not a horrible thing, unless you're in a role where you're expected to be able to help out others or learn new things.

    I've encountered many things where the solution was simple but very difficult to find. That doesn't seem to be the case here, unless you start from the assumption that it should all just work by magic and if it doesn't a tantrum is the appropriate response. Not that I haven't done similar things, but then after the fact I'm willing to admit when I was TRWTF, like Lorne and his car music, and like blakeyrat never.



  • @morbiuswilters said:

    @flabdablet said:
    ...but you can't be productive with git because your IDE doesn't know about git commands, why blame git for that and not the IDE?

    Actually, he already said Visual Studio is the best git client he's used and he's complaining about the shitty CLI tool.

    Yes, and that's only because Microsoft got off their ass and wrote it themselves. Which I guess I should see as a "win" for the open source philosophy, but instead I see it as, "why should someone else have to swoop in and fix the broken shit you refused to fix for 7 years?"

    And that all said, the Microsoft VS plug-in still sucks in many fundamental ways. But it sucks a hell of a lot less than the CLI client or the GitHub for Windows client.



  • @boomzilla said:

    Assuming the repo knew how to connect isn't totally unreasonable, though I don't think I would have assumed it. Anyway, as I stated before, if I were you, I would be getting started, personally with heroku, so I would read up a bit to see what I'd been thrown into.

    As it turns out, I am not you.

    THANK FUCKING GOD.

    @boomzilla said:

    Yes, I realize that you figured it out eventually. I'm pointing out that you got stuck, and instead of thinking something along the lines of, "Hmm, did I skip or mess up something in the process of getting this all to work?" you went into rant mode.

    1. Bad software makes me angry. Software with ZERO consideration for the user makes me angry. I honestly don't understand how other people find this shit acceptable.

    2) Ranting about a problem is not the same as giving up on a problem. I ranted *and* solved it.

    @boomzilla said:

    I guess you contacted heroku support, which is a reasonable thing to do, but you seem incredibly non-proactive as far as figuring out what's wrong.

    Why do you say I wasn't proactive? Can you see my computer screen from there? What the fuck are you talking about?

    Shit like this is why I usually don't respond to you Boomzilla. You pull these little nuggets out of your ass and shit them in the thread as if they were fact. How the fuck do you, how the fuck COULD you, know how proactive I was in solving it?

    Oh right. Telepathy.

    @boomzilla said:

    That's not a horrible thing, unless you're in a role where you're expected to be able to help out others or learn new things.

    Why the fuck do you keep saying I'm not willing to learn new things. STOP REPEAT THIS BULLSHIT. STOP IT. If your brain just a solidified chunk of rock incapable of accepting new stimulus? Is that it? Maybe the power of telepathy has dire consequences for every other function the brain normally performs?

    @boomzilla said:

    That doesn't seem to be the case here, unless you start from the assumption that it should all just work by magic and if it doesn't a tantrum is the appropriate response.

    There's nothing wrong with complaining about a shitty user experience. The problem here is that you think there is-- you're just contributing to the proliferation of shitty software by not calling out problems as you see them.

    And like I said above, this is a moral issue. This is IMPORTANT. This isn't just some trivia.


  • ♿ (Parody)

    @blakeyrat said:

    Why do you say I wasn't proactive? Can you see my computer screen from there? What the fuck are you talking about?

    Shit like this is why I usually don't respond to you Boomzilla. You pull these little nuggets out of your ass and shit them in the thread as if they were fact. How the fuck do you, how the fuck COULD you, know how proactive I was in solving it?

    I shouldn't expect you to remember what you've posted previously. To refresh your goldfish-like memory, it has something to do with the fact that in roughly my first 5 minutes on the heroku website I showed that this:

    @blakeyrat said:

    @Blakeyrat's Twitter said:
    Ok I'm desperate, does anybody know how to work Heroku? Their documentation is utterly wrong and incomplete.

    ...was utter bullshit. But no, you're obviously right. I made it all up.

    @blakeyrat said:

    Why the fuck do you keep saying I'm not willing to learn new things. STOP REPEAT THIS BULLSHIT. STOP IT.

    I can only base my opinion of you based on what you tell us, because otherwise I'd be making shit up. You've been in multiple threads where you refuse to admit you were wrong after several people have explained something to you. Or that something as simple as following "Getting Started" instructions when you're, well, getting started, is a good idea. No, you ALREADY KNOW EVERYTHING YOU NEED TO KNOW. You make that clear, that your knowledge as of yesterday should be sufficient to grab an unfamiliar product and deploy it to an unfamiliar service. OK, I'll admit to a bit of hyperbole, but at best, you need to be dragged kicking and screaming into the light of new knowledge.

    @blakeyrat said:

    The problem here is that you think there is-- you're just contributing to the proliferation of shitty software by not calling out problems as you see them.

    Oh, so you are telepathic now? I am calling out the problems as I see them. I don't use git or github or heroku, so I can't comment on obscure error messages, but I can point and laugh when you ignore even the getting started information that's easily accessible and would have solved your problem before you knew it was a problem.



  • @boomzilla said:

    Or that something as simple as following "Getting Started" instructions when you're, well, getting started, is a good idea.

    I wasn't "getting started".

    Maybe you and I and Dhromed and Heroku disagree on what "getting started" means, but I'm not wrong when I say I was not "getting started". So stop bringing up that bullshit.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    @boomzilla said:
    Or that something as simple as following "Getting Started" instructions when you're, well, getting started, is a good idea.
    I wasn't "getting started".

    Maybe you and I and Dhromed and Heroku disagree on what "getting started" means, but I'm not wrong when I say I was not "getting started". So stop bringing up that bullshit.

    OK, then what would you call it when you've not used something before and now are using it?  Or phrasing that how most would: when you are getting started with something?  People are just calling you on the fact that it is really simple if you use the standard terms for something instead of what is apparently used in your little world.


  • ♿ (Parody)

    @blakeyrat said:

    @boomzilla said:
    Or that something as simple as following "Getting Started" instructions when you're, well, getting started, is a good idea.

    I wasn't "getting started".

    Maybe you and I and Dhromed and Heroku disagree on what "getting started" means, but I'm not wrong when I say I was not "getting started". So stop bringing up that bullshit.

    Yes, it's perfectly clear now that you were an old hand at working with Heroku.


Log in to reply