UK DEVELOPER WAGES



  • <FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2>Morning.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT>

    <FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2>I just wanted an opinion... What do you reckon a .net developer with 2 years experience should be getting paid for developing fairly large web sites (e-commerce)<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT>

    <FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2>Bearing in mind: <o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT>

    <FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2>Education: GCSEs, Highers (in <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Scotland</st1:place></st1:country-region>) and HND Software Development.
    Experience 2 Years hardware/Software support inc building and configuring web servers.
    1 Year web support (Fixing existing asp + asp.net web sites)
    2 Years Developing asp.net sites (c# asp.net 1.1 + 2.0)<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT>

    <FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2>Basically I have been at this company for 2 years - I am the longest serving member of a 6 person web team and I think that I’m having the piss ripped out of me each and every pay day! I know that there are people on the team that have only been with the company for 6 months with no experience (but with degrees) who are on more than me...<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT>

    <FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2>Opinions please.<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT>

    <FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2>Cheers<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT>

    <FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2>David<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT>

    <FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2> <o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT>

    <FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2>PS. ignore spelling mistakes its very late!<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT>

    <FONT size=2></FONT> 



  • @technites said:

    Probably best to phone some recruiters and ask, but I'd guess £25K plus? It varies a lot, the finance area pays a lot more but they'll only take people from top universities.

     

    Yeah, thats about what I thought... unfortunatly its considerably more than I get...



  • maybe that is fortunate.  that means you can make more money!



  • @technites said:

    Probably best to phone some recruiters and ask, but I'd guess £25K plus? It varies a lot, the finance area pays a lot more but they'll only take people from top universities.

    I'm just leaving a job in finance, and I don't have a degree.



  • I would say around the 30K mark with 2 years .Net experience, all depends on what experience you have and who with.  Forget about degrees I've found they are pretty much worthless when landing a job experience and knowledge counts 99% IMO.

    However forget permanent salaries become a self employed comtractor, Ii'm 24 with no degree but 7 years worth of software development experience, currently doing contract work and earning around the 55-60K mark and thats just the start of it.  As long as you can back up your experience and your sure you know your stuff, then its contract all the way.



  • @Leed said:

    I would say around the 30K mark with 2 years .Net experience, all depends on what experience you have and who with.  Forget about degrees I've found they are pretty much worthless when landing a job experience and knowledge counts 99% IMO.

    However forget permanent salaries become a self employed comtractor, Ii'm 24 with no degree but 7 years worth of software development experience, currently doing contract work and earning around the 55-60K mark and thats just the start of it.  As long as you can back up your experience and your sure you know your stuff, then its contract all the way.



    My long-term experience with contract work is that you have a fast start (i.e. earn more than a employee of the same age), but it's really hard to raise your hourly rates. My current rates are the same like 8 years ago, which means a net loss due to inflation.


  • @ammoQ said:

    @Leed said:

    I would say around the 30K mark with 2 years .Net experience, all depends on what experience you have and who with.  Forget about degrees I've found they are pretty much worthless when landing a job experience and knowledge counts 99% IMO.

    However forget permanent salaries become a self employed comtractor, Ii'm 24 with no degree but 7 years worth of software development experience, currently doing contract work and earning around the 55-60K mark and thats just the start of it.  As long as you can back up your experience and your sure you know your stuff, then its contract all the way.



    My long-term experience with contract work is that you have a fast start (i.e. earn more than a empoyee of the same age), but it's really hard to raise your hourly rates. My current rates are the same like 8 years ago, which means a net loss due to inflation.

    Yes of course your rates are gonna fluctuate with the market but I think contract rates are always gonna be higher that pernanent. I reckon I will look for a permanent job in about 5-10 years time anyway, when I've made enough money to pay off my debts lol

    Also from what I can see there alot of scope for improvement as my experince increses, I beleive I am towards the bottom end of the market in terms of rate really. Still it's more money that I could hope for with a permanent job.



  • @Leed said:


    Yes of course your rates are gonna fluctuate with the market but I think contract rates are always gonna be higher that pernanent. I reckon I will look for a permanent job in about 5-10 years time anyway, when I've made enough money to pay off my debts lol

    Sounds like a good plan.


    Also from what I can see there alot of scope for improvement as my experince increses, I beleive I am towards the bottom end of the market in terms of rate really. Still it's more money that I could hope for with a permanent job.

    It's not always easy to get those well-paid contracts, but I have the feeling that the next 1-3 years will offer us a lot of good opportunities. At least the activity of my phone (people calling me and asking if I have time to work for them) has been sharply increasing during the last 6 months, after several years of relative silence.


  • Yeah it definately has! we are definately at the start of a mini boom (hope I dont jinx it sorry) think I got into it just at the right time judging by the amount of work out there.



  • <FONT face=Arial size=2>Getting back on topic for a second < 17k = pathetic.</FONT>

    <FONT face=Arial size=2>Plus - Why TF does the delete key not work in the html editor?</FONT>



  • I am sorry to hear that you have a low wages.



    The only advise I can give is that:


    1. Have you expressed how dissappointed you are with the wages? If so,
      what's the outcome by the managment. Ask your manager pin down what
      factors lower ur wages.


    2. Are you in a job catchment area? eg M4 corridoor That can make the bargain a hell lot of different.


    3. People always compare. Are you less technical than the others? If
      other team members are WAY technical than you AND they are willing to
      teach you. Then stay for a while, learn as much as you can. Knowledge
      is an asset that no one can take from you. Equally, u can quit and
      learn from the others in next job.


    4. Also, how old are you if you don't mind me asking? If you are in ur
      mid 20, then I advise you ask for pay rise now, otherwise leave. You
      probably end up 25k when you are 35. Let say they bump that to 19k, you
      immediately start looking for a new job pay around 25k. Because when
      you jump to next job, they may ask you what's your current salary. I am
      sure you can bluff and hope they won't check. The person who will
      employ you would also bargain, they may be less willing to pay someone
      from < 17k to 25k than 19k to 25k. U know what I mean



      In technical career, a job should be paid based on how competent,
      knowledgeable, hands-on, multi-tasking and how much team worker you
      are, NOT qualification.



      Good luck.






  • @Exom said:

    I am sorry to hear that you have a low wages.

    The only advise I can give is that:

    1. Have you expressed how dissappointed you are with the wages? If so, what's the outcome by the managment. Ask your manager pin down what factors lower ur wages.

    2. Are you in a job catchment area? eg M4 corridoor That can make the bargain a hell lot of different.

    3. People always compare. Are you less technical than the others? If other team members are WAY technical than you AND they are willing to teach you. Then stay for a while, learn as much as you can. Knowledge is an asset that no one can take from you. Equally, u can quit and learn from the others in next job.

    4. Also, how old are you if you don't mind me asking? If you are in ur mid 20, then I advise you ask for pay rise now, otherwise leave. You probably end up 25k when you are 35. Let say they bump that to 19k, you immediately start looking for a new job pay around 25k. Because when you jump to next job, they may ask you what's your current salary. I am sure you can bluff and hope they won't check. The person who will employ you would also bargain, they may be less willing to pay someone from < 17k to 25k than 19k to 25k. U know what I mean

    In technical career, a job should be paid based on how competent, knowledgeable, hands-on, multi-tasking and how much team worker you are, NOT qualification.

    Good luck.


     

    <FONT face=Arial size=2>Yup, </FONT>

    <FONT face=Arial size=2>in answer to your questions:</FONT>

    <FONT face=Arial size=2>Im 24.
    I am the most (if not only) technical person on the web team - only one that knows how to config servers etc.
    I also have a full 12 months more experience over everyone else on the team, and am the most experienced using c# (others only have accademic background and 2 came from PHP development)</FONT>

    <FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>The problem is that I work for one of the few web development companies in the area - they are growing very fast (global scale) and its only a 5 min drive from home...</FONT></FONT><FONT>

    </FONT>


  • Look for a new job that is much better paid. Once you have found a new prospective employer, tell your boss: "I like this job, the coworkers and everything, but the other company  would pay me (say) 10K p.a. more, sorry but I need that money."
    Either they will quickly make you a competitive offer (even if it is for some reason a bit lower, but still much more than you get currently) or you know that you have no future there anyway.



  • Not sure where you find these fantastic contracting jobs.  I've worked in the IT industry for 26 years, loads of experience leading teams, developing software etc, but haven't been able to find any contracting work - maybe it's an age thing!



  • @sarah said:

    Not sure where you find these fantastic contracting jobs.  I've worked in the IT industry for 26 years, loads of experience leading teams, developing software etc, but haven't been able to find any contracting work - maybe it's an age thing!



    Ex-employers and their customers are the first place to look. Another possibility are ex-classmates, ex-coworkers etc. Chances are some of them have reached a position where they can assign contract work.
    It's relatively hard (at least in my experience) to get into a contract without any prior contact and nobody recommending you. Therefore networking is a must for a freelancer.



  • @ammoQ said:

    Look for a new job that is much better paid. Once you have found a new prospective employer, tell your boss: "I like this job, the coworkers and everything, but the other company  would pay me (say) 10K p.a. more, sorry but I need that money."
    Either they will quickly make you a competitive offer (even if it is for some reason a bit lower, but still much more than you get currently) or you know that you have no future there anyway.

    Part of the problem is that I did this last year (when I was on 15k), I was offered a job paying 18k to start with chance of 22k after the first year, the problem for me was that this required about 2 1/2 hours travel each day (about 2 1/4 hours more than current travel time) and would have cost about 2k in fuel each year. So I went to my current employer and told them... their reponse was "See how the site for client X goes (at the time the largest site that our company had done), well, 3 months down the line, Client X's site is done, due to some cock ups along the way (hold my hands up - some mistakes were mine) I was told that the pay rise would not be comming and that if the other job was still there that I should go for it (by this time the web team had expanded from 2 to 6). Obviously the other position was gone.. so I stayed where I was and watched as new starters came in on the same wage as me, and after 6 months probation... started getting more than me...

    The moral... If you get offered a job either:

    a. dont tell your boss.
    b. If you do tell your boss make sure that you are not still working for him/her if the other job falls through...

    On the + side, I have been doing some freelance work for people and one of them emailed tonight to say that if the site is doing as well in december as it is projected that it will be there should be a "senior developer" position for me (22k + for 3 days a week with the other 2 days being left for development of my own design/development agency - which they would then have a % share in)... sounds a bit too good to be true at the moment, but its a start!!!



  • I think you should definitely start looking for a job. Your low wages
    only go to the credit of your manager or benefit shareholders.



    I moved to London for my first job, then gradually moved outside. I certainly think you have to move where jobs are.



    Do not worry about your boss upset or angry if (s)he found out you are
    looking for a job? (S)he is not stupid, with that kind of wages, (s)he
    is expecting you to hop for next job. In fact, probably ur boss
    surprises that u have stay that long.








  • I learned programming from an associates in Comp Sci but I never got my foot in the door with it.  Then I just started doing parts or whole websites for free while in the military.  It was the best education I ever got and it was free advertising because all the free sites had my tag/link at the bottom and a link to my own website.
             That's really the crutch of contracting.  There is a lot people who say they know how to program, but usually they're constantly looking up API functions/classes every step of the way or feeding off tutorial's and how to's....  So when you advertise your services and have a portfolio of websites that not only work but look good, that beats out someone who just has a degree, plus it proves to potential employeers/contractors that you know your shit.
        As for wages, I started at 25$/page for static content, 50-75$ for forms, and 50$ for dynamic content pages(non-flash).  Then I switched over to 25$/hour until I started working 25-30 hours a week so now I can justify rate increases by arguing supply/demand.



  • @devy said:

    Part of the problem is that I did this last year (when I was on 15k), I was offered a job paying 18k to start with chance of 22k after the first year, the problem for me was that this required about 2 1/2 hours travel each day (about 2 1/4 hours more than current travel time) and would have cost about 2k in fuel each year. So I went to my current employer and told them... their reponse was "See how the site for client X goes (at the time the largest site that our company had done), well, 3 months down the line, Client X's site is done, due to some cock ups along the way (hold my hands up - some mistakes were mine) I was told that the pay rise would not be comming and that if the other job was still there that I should go for it (by this time the web team had expanded from 2 to 6). Obviously the other position was gone.. so I stayed where I was and watched as new starters came in on the same wage as me, and after 6 months probation... started getting more than me...


    Your strategic mistake (everyone has to learn) was to accept the "let's wait and see" answer. Of course they knew that after 3 months the other job is gone.



  • @sarah said:

    Not sure where you find these fantastic contracting jobs.  I've worked in the IT industry for 26 years, loads of experience leading teams, developing software etc, but haven't been able to find any contracting work - maybe it's an age thing!

     

    You must not be looking hard enough?

    I found I had to REALLY put my CV about when I was looking for contract work, I mailshotted (is that a word lol) about 200 recruitment companies with my CV and and email explaining my situation,  it took me approx 3 weeks to find a contract, the sticking point was the month notice I had to give at my permanent job most contracts need you to start asap. But I held out and landed one (at a low rate mind you and only a month long) it was a risk but I went for it.  In the 3 weeks looking my phone did not stop ringing, from recruitment agencies EVERY DAY at least 5-10 calls and my CV isnt anything special.  I put my CV up on monster, jobsite, jobserve and cwjobs and I now get a constant but managable flow of job oppurtunities. Go to any of them sites and search for contract work, they are in abundance, just make sure every recruitment company in the land has your CV on their database and it wont take long trust me.


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