Closed Poll: How do you feel about Discourse on TDWTF?
-
25 years can do a lot...
Quite - it's changed in the 6 years I've been working round here.
Until it shut, this was the closest
pubdump to the Tyne. Next nearest pub is probably a 5 minute walk right from that short, or a Slug and Lettuce 3 mins left.
-
Can't say I recognize it... but then it's daylight in StreetView ;-) Anyway, it was just a short stay in Newcastle - the starter for some weeks of hitchhiking Scotland.
I worked in Carlisle for half a year a while later, but I never managed to go to Newcastle during that time.
-
abarker said:how Discourse displays the two
It is a bit more subtle than that; bbcode is translated into HTML, and whether there is a cr lf after the bbcode quote tag apparently matters when it should not. This does not happen when quoting with Markdown, which is also a lot less characters e.g. >
Based on the context of the portion of my post that you chose to quote, it appears that you are arguing about whether this is a display bug. If that's the case, then keep this in mind:
- bbcode quotes render as:
<aside class="quote"><blockquote><p>Your text here</p></blockquote></aside> - markdown quotes render as:
<blockquote><p>Your text here</p></blockquote></aside>
Discourse, at some point, is translating each of those to HTML, and they aren't getting translated into the same thing. This can give different results when they should give the same results, which is a bug.
Now, if you were arguing that it's not a bug that the two work differently when quoting someone else, then I must ask: why the hell isn't it a bug to quote someone else's markdown quote?
If you weren't arguing either of those things, then what the hell were you trying to say?
- bbcode quotes render as:
-
Well, there is one side effect of Discourse, I'm a long time lurker that finally joined up to try out Discourse and see just how bad it really is, knowing that TDWTF community can be sometimes unfairly scathing. I was, however, not disappointed.
-
It's a little ironc that we're criticising @codinghorror for trolling on a forum where the rest of us make a regular habit out of trolling the shit out of each other.
If he were trolling in a topic where everyone is trolling, that's one thing. But this all started with the disagreement about certain elements of Discourse. Now that a good number of those things have been taken care of and the topics that he trolls have been generally more about Jeff himself, I've not had a problem with his style of response (though the videos are annoying no matter who posts them. I'm not watching a stupid youtube clip of a character saying something that was already typed in the comment).Is it really so inappropriate to suggest that perhaps Jeff could both be a Discourse founder and a regular member of the community and engage in the banter/trolling should he so choose?
Is he not basically a member of the community at this point? No one here is liked by everyone anyway. I'd say he probably ranks somewhere between @ben_lubar and @swampy right now... The only maddening thing left right now is his propensity for moderating the crap out of the fforum. On CS I didn't even know there were moderators until one said something here. Here the moderating has been in your face blatant.I'm reminded of the little exchange that this comment kicked off which was a bit of fun for all involved. Do the rest of you somehow lose the capacity to figure out the difference between a bit of trolling for humour's sake and genuine derision as soon as you read a post from @sam or @codinghorror?
I haven't had a problem with @sam. There were a couple of blow-ups, but he has admitted them and moved on. Since then, he generally replies in at least a semi-professional manner and has seemed quite open-minded about things. Took a while longer to get used to @codinghorror's style.If I remember correctly, one of the first replies when Jeff posted for the first time was saying that we troll pretty much all the time. Seems to me he's just trying to fit in.
Less moderating, more listening, more trolling topics that were meant to be trolled and not genuinely serious bug/feature requests. Then he'd fit right in. He's clearly a good resource.
-
On CS I didn't even know there were moderators until one said something here. Here the moderating has been in your face blatant.
+1.
-
-
I haven't had a problem with @sam. There were a couple of blow-ups, but he has admitted them and moved on. Since then, he generally replies in at least a semi-professional manner and has seemed quite open-minded about things.
+1
Though admittedly, early on I did get into it a bit with @sam, but that's behind us now.Now that we've realized @sam is here to help, and @sam has realized that we really were trying to help (and not just be pains in his ass), things have been a lot nicer with him.
-
-
Tell me how far you are from York and I'll triangulate your position and come and stalk you.
This behaviour is scary.
-
-
How far are you away from York, Nagesh?
Archbishop Of York's C E Junior School
Copmanthorpe Lane, York YO23 2QT
(T) +44 1904 551630
-
If there only was a feature to indicate a +1 without making useless posts.
And without feeling like you were indicating love. Maybe it could look like
.
-
though the videos are annoying no matter who posts them. I'm not watching a stupid youtube clip of a character saying something that was already typed in the comment
Much of @codinghorror's snarky trolling is completely lost on me*. I'm not watching those clips at work, regardless of whether the video duplicates something in the text or not, and it's very unlikely I'll bother finding them again later, if I even remember.
* Not that it is any great loss from my point of view.
-
Archbishop Of York's C E Junior SchoolCopmanthorpe Lane, York YO23 2QT(T) +44 1904 551630
That's too close.
Filed under: Moving house
-
* Not that it is any great loss from my point of view.
Nothing is great loss from any point of view.
-
You miss the subtler point behind that post.
-
Nothing is great loss from any point of view.
Losing my sight would be a great loss from my point of view.
Filed under: Rimshot
-
Losing my sight would be a great loss from my point of view.
Both Dhritarashtra and Gandhari did not miss it.
-
And without feeling like you were indicating love. Maybe it could look like
If you're hitchhiking in this neighbourhood, I suspect there would be a lot of love involved.
Filed under: Don't panic, it's just a babelfish.. or is it?
-
Good call. Maybe
or 
?
-
We definitely need an emoji for 'Don't Panic' too.
-
-
-
:vegeta: ?
Indeed. It's the first image that pops into my mind every time when I see
Filed under: cue DBZ fans' confusion comments
-
How far are you away from York, Nagesh?
Personally, I am 0 meters away from York.
Filed under: Click my profile if you don't get it
-
Indeed. It's the first image that pops into my mind every time when I see
I knew that looked familiar!
-
Personally, I am 0 meters away from York.
Filed under: Click my profile if you don't get it
So you are York. The person not the place. Which one in this photograph is you?
-
Honestly, I don't like it. It doesn't feel like a forum, and really comes off as pretentious. Of course given it's an Atwood thing, I'm not surprised. See Stackoverflow and related sites for another pretentious way of doing things.
-
Though admittedly, early on I did get into it a bit with @sam, but that's behind us now.Now that we've realized @sam is here to help, and @sam has realized that we really were trying to help (and not just be pains in his ass), things have been a lot nicer with him.
This, entirely, @codinghorror not so much.
And I was at a stag weekend in Newcastle 4 years ago; ex Royal Navy ordnance disposal divers and a bunch of Scottish farmers. And me in my ITness... Only just made it out of the weekend alive...
-
And I was at a stag weekend in Newcastle 4 years ago; ex Royal Navy ordnance disposal divers and a bunch of Scottish farmers. And me in my ITness... Only just made it out of the weekend alive...
A sorta had that feeling once in Rose Street, Edinburgh... (same holiday, '88) "The Pub inside the Pub" I think it was called. The bouncer looked like Jimmy Somerville in a black suit, was chewing gum and training his handmuscles with hand grippers. Inside, in the cellar bar, a couple of girls on the dance floor and four or five guys with crew cuts at the bar, eying the girls. Each with a rather large personal space around him... the atmosphere in there was like "one false move, look or whatever and you will need the bouncer to come to your rescue". We only stayed for the one drink included in the entrance fee, then left for some friendlier place.
-
Honestly, I don't like it. It doesn't feel like a forum, and really comes off as pretentious. Of course given it's an Atwood thing, I'm not surprised
I can't say I like Jeff's attitude in regards to force some behaviour on the users, but I wouldn't call Discourse itself pretentious.I've been thinking a lot about it for the last few weeks, but if you were to develop a "modern" forum software (whatever that might mean), you would have to implement a lot of things you find in Discourse.
Infinite scrolling would definitely be a feature you would expect a forum software to be able to do these days, but I would let the user decide what he wants to use (you have to implement pagination anyway so that Google can crawl your forum).
An AJAX driven editor would also be a must have, but I would definitely offer a CGI driven method to post as well. A "Like" button is standard.
Nested quotes? I would definitely implement the forum software in a way that nested quotes are supported. If then a forum operator comes up and says "hey, not on my forum": let him switch the possibility off in the settings. Same for image uploads. Such stuff should be site policy.Overall, I would try to keep the orientation for the user as simple as possible - this is one thing that's quite confusing in Discourse. Moved posts, "reply as new topic" posts and the like. It's possible, so you have to flag it somehow and this is where the right sidebar becomes difficult to "read".
That said, I would probably get as much flak for what I would come up with. Just because it looks simple to me, doesn't mean it looks simple to anybody else.
Still, would be a fun project to do...
-
Still, would be a fun project to do...
It definitely has been a fun project for me. The last few weeks have been some of my funnest times working on Discourse, having a community that uses the shit out of your software like TDWTF teaches you a lot.
-
It definitely has been a fun project for me. The last few weeks have been some of my funnest times working on Discourse, having a community that uses the shit out of your software like TDWTF teaches you a lot.
Yeah, I would think it does - I mean, this site is dedicated to bad examples of code or software, so test-running some software with this community is like building a toy and then giving it to a toddler. If the toddler can't break it, it's probably ready for the shelves :-)But you have been very calm and sensible in your approach - you listen, you look at the problems and you try to fix them as they come up. You didn't let yourself get drawn into fundamental policy discussions. So, keep up the good work :-)
Actually, the way you and codinghorror reacted in the first few weeks reminds me of the "good cop, bad cop" strategy (or the strategy in "Smokey and the Bandit"). Codinghorror draws the flak and you can concentrate on your work.
-
-
This guy doesn't know how good he has it.
-
This guy doesn't know how good he has it.
I don't have the heart to point him to the relevant TDWTF Disccourse topics. Do you?
-
I don't have the heart to point him to the relevant TDWTF Disccourse topics. Do you?
That would require a meta.discourse account. Fuck that noise.
-
I did actually start an account over there originally, don't know if it's still active... I waded into the discussion about Discourse being GPL and how that might affect plugins but naturally I was completely wrong (never mind having observed this specific situation play out in a court case with WordPress)... never been back.
-
I have not completed reading the rest of the conversation but I wanted to throw in that you as a person don't have to leave in my opinion. Once things have settled down, you might as well stay and share WTFs, agree with Morbs and derail some topics yourself!
Is he not basically a member of the community at this point? No one here is liked by everyone anyway.
Nope, he has yet to be agreed with or rant like a ragin psychopath! I thought that was a requirement hence I never joined.
Sidenote:
Now I read through a whole topic and replied to 2 different posts that are both more than 30 posts before the end of the thread. This greatly disturbes my workflow and stops me from trying to be relevant to the current subplot!
In all honesty, though, it does feel weird to reply to such old posts. Thats something pagination handles pretty well... because you have a much harder time to reply to stuff that is more than 20 posts away.
I also don't know if I even did this correctly because I replied to @codinghorror differently than to @darkmatter . Oh well.
-
Well, after 4 days, and the results pretty closely fit a bell curve, aside from the dip in the middle.
Apparently, we are pretty divided on the whole Discourse thing. Though I do wonder: who wants Discourse's babies and who wants to burn it down?
-
never mind having observed this specific situation play out in a court case with WordPress
Are you referring to this?
A question on GPL licensing and the current WordPress debacle
I saw in @codinghorror’s post that this wants to be the WordPress of discussion forums, including adopting their business model. This was linked to a page of “how to build a business around WordPress”. Unfortunately, WordPress (and Drupal) believe that all plugins and themes, including images and...
I understand licensing issues around plugins are very complex.
-
Something like that, yes. The simple fact is that when you release code that directly interacts with GPL code, it must itself be GPL or GPL compliant.
In the case of WP, the theme code itself that's the PHP part that interacts with WP's own GPL code, that must be GPL - but the images and CSS are separated enough that it's OK for them to not be GPL. GPL's definition on this one is a bit complicated but there is talk about loading resources through a defined interface where there is a clear separation.
In the case of Discourse, you're doing a ton on both client and server, meaning that you could possibly get away with a theme that doesn't interact with Discourse's own JS too significantly (not significantly enough that you would consider it actually linked), but anything that isn't just CSS is almost certainly going to need to be GPL.
Which makes selling it rather tricky. GPL by definition does permit selling. The part that the GPL advocates tend to forget is that someone can legitimately purchase a GPL thing, even if it is paid-for - and then freely redistribute without any issues or questions or any ability to stop it because that's the terms of the GPL. Onward redistribution cannot be prevented if the entire thing is GPL. The only way you can actually meaningfully charge for something GPL is to sell something related in the way Discourse itself plans to do with what amount to hosting plans. You wouldn't be selling the software, you'd be selling complementary services for the software and that's all good under the GPL.
On the other hand, straight up plugins are interacting with the code and those things are messed up because the code falls under the clause in the GPL about execution. So plugins must be GPL. Which sort of gives you trouble for selling them.
Now, February 2013 would have been the time around which I commented on the subject, but I can't find any emails to validate when I contributed but certainly I commented on the subject at the time when it was discussed, having observed this in the WP environment, as well as observing this in the forum space too - MyBB transformed from GPL to LGPL specifically for this reason. SMF also had to give up a bridge to Joomla because Joomla felt even a bridge had to be GPL (as Joomla is GPL) and at the time SMF's licence was firmly not compatible with GPL.
Yes, it's a complex and terrible mess, and means choosing a licence is a very complex business. Depending on how clean your plugin API is, MPL 2.0 might be a better fit, but I couldn't recommend GPL for something that is intended to build a third party ecosystem around it where you want to encourage premium content.
-
Well, after 4 days, and the results pretty closely fit a bell curve, aside from the dip in the middle.
Pretty interesting. I wonder if any of the 3 or 4 people who ditched the forums altogether came back to vote.
-
Thats something pagination handles pretty well
Must be your imagination; pagination doesn't work because Jeff says so.
-
SMF also had to give up a bridge to Joomla because Joomla felt even a bridge had to be GPL (as Joomla is GPL) and at the time SMF's licence was firmly not compatible with GPL.
Is it all in one process? If not, it's very hard to say that the licensing infects. GPL doesn't infect over a public API; if it did, the Joomla stance would mean that everyone's browser has to be GPL and that's just not going to happen. (While the GPL zealot might not like the situation, it's what is most compatible with existing court decisions.)
Filed under: I prefer nothing stronger than the LGPL before breakfast
-
Yes, the boundary is processes. If you have a defined interface that keeps them apart (which the SMF/Joomla bridge did not) then you're good. It's like how you can write non GPL applications in PHP and use the GPL version of MySQL. (Though that caused trouble in itself when PHP stopped being GPL and had to replace the bindings to libmysqlclient for that reason!)
Whatever leaves Joomla and hits the browser is going over a defined interface (HTTP) and so their jurisdiction ends.
It's a bit more complex when you are dealing with something that doesn't have a concrete idea of processes (like the client side JS in Discourse), so the alternative definition of 'sharing memory structures' get invoked. It's a horribly, bloody mess to have to deal with.
-
It's a bit more complex when you are dealing with something that doesn't have a concrete idea of processes (like the client side JS in Discourse), so the alternative definition of 'sharing memory structures' get invoked.
It's not that much more complex. If someone starts waving around the GPL and claiming that they're entitled to the source to everything in the browser because they read a Discourse-based website with it, the browser maker will just pat them on the head and tell them to keep on taking the dried frog pills. In short, the infection only really propagates when the non-GPL side is demonstrated to depend critically on the GPL side (though the aggregation might be GPL); otherwise, there's just not enough of infraction to force a license change.
The really stinky license is the AGPL but I don't think that's been court-tested yet.
-
Of course, but that's not what I was talking about. I'm not talking about what the site serves up for the browser to process as being GPL - at least in context of content.
I'm talking about plugins. Presumably any plugin that modifies things browser-side is going to interact with Discourse's JS, which means the plugin must also be GPL if Discourse is GPL because that's interacting at code level sharing a memory structure. The aggregation of code by definition must be GPL.
-
I wonder if any of the 3 or 4 people who ditched the forums altogether came back to vote.
No, and that's the entire problem here. Alex said wait a few weeks. Fucking Jeff says wait a few MONTHS. And then Discourse gets "ok" and "used". Yeah, sure-- by the few remaining community members who haven't been driven away, told to fuck off, or left out of frustration.
edit: okay, what started as just a short reply has ended up being everything I wanted to say, so I'll just start a new topic...
