Coding Horror with a keyboard?
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someone pressing typewriter keys using the tip of a jackhammer
For a while I had a program that emulated this exact scenario. It was a good break from what was happening before... Almost therapeutic.
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So, to my knowledge, there are four original types of cherry mx switches, and then different companies like razer now have their own (orange?).
Blue and _____ are clicky, and red and brown are not. I don't know quite what the difference is between the pairs, however. I know red is the recommended type for gaming, because a very slight press will trigger them, and that blue is recommended for typing, because you get maximum feedback. But brown and _____? No idea.
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At home I have "Blue" switches. Good thing I live alone because they sound like someone pressing typewriter keys using the tip of a jackhammer. If I had to replace that one I'd switch to Browns.
It sounds more like somebody tossing Lego bricks into a big pile - not extremely loud but nonetheless annoying for bystanders.
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It looks like (now, at least), there's a lot more than 4 variants of Cherry MX switches.
Best I can find for more "original" switch details is http://www.daskeyboard.com/blog/mechanical-keyboard-guide/ - which indicates
- Black (60 cN force, linear - no break point, quiet)
- Red (45 cN force, linear, quiet)
- Brown (55 cN force, moderate tactile bump - a break point, middling noise)
- Blue (60 cN force, heavy tactile bump, loudest)
- Clear (65 cN force, heavy tactile bump, middling noise)
The Razer Black Widow keyboard I have has Blue switches. Apparently there are Black Widow "Stealth" editions that come from the factory with Brown switches. And the various articles I have read suggest that Red is the Holy Grail1 for gaming switches.
1Thou shalt count thy switches to three...
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different companies like razer now have their own (orange?)
The best part is that Razer are using a cheaper ripoff switch and tout the miniscule differences as "serious improvements".
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But brown and _____?
The fourth color is black, which is a clicky red.
Browns are just blues that don't make the really loud sound.
Green and clear are two relatively common ones, but they're just variants (IIRC) of the main four, with different break weights or something.
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It's unlikely to be noticeable, even for the most twitch gamer.
The link I posted earlier quotes an 18.77 ms - 32.75 ms scan interval for USB and 2.83 ms - 10.88 ms for PS/2. That's huge from a gaming perspective.
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It may be worth pointing out that the original patent cherry mx had ended recently, which is why there are so many colors now. There are only four in the original set afaik, and those are the only ones I know.
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The link I posted earlier quotes an 18.77 ms - 32.75 ms scan interval for USB and 2.83 ms - 10.88 ms for PS/2. That's huge from a gaming perspective.
I'd love to see if the numbers have changed since (the article is from 2002). Because, holy fuck, 15-30ms is a long time.
I recall seeing somebody talking about a game loop that polls IO multiple times, while running at 60 FPS. (After the first IO poll, it estimates what's likely to happen and then uses consecutive IO updates to correct the estimates.)
FWIW, I have a R.A.T gaming mouse that advertises a 1000Hz polling rate. Always been curious about what that actually means.
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I'd love to see if the numbers have changed since (the article is from 2002). Because, holy fuck, 15-30ms is a long time.
Yeah, I'm curious if it's changed as well. But still - that is a massive difference (like you said). I wonder if we could test it somehow...
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Yeah, I'm curious if it's changed as well. But still - that is a massive difference (like you said). I wonder if we could test it somehow...
I browsed through the original paper, and I got the impression that it included a description of how they measured stuff there. Didn't read it, though, but maybe I'll have a quick look tomorrow.
Otherwise - not sure. I thought about trying to measure input latency a few times (mostly out of curiosity, so I never spent too much time on it), but never really came up with a simple method that only involves common household stuff. The main problem (IMO) is that almost anything connected to a computer will have some latency that you'd need to compensate for.
To measure the latency from the OS and onwards, one of these might be sufficient.
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Hmm...I've been meaning to get a teensy for a while. Perhaps this will
provide a good excuse to finally go and buy one.
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when typing more than 80 wps.
To be fair, very few people can type 80 words per second.FWIW, I have a R.A.T gaming mouse that advertises a 1000Hz polling rate. Always been curious about what that actually means.
The people who make mice are confident that gamers will buy anything with a bigger number?
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The people who make mice are confident that gamers will buy anything with a bigger number?
I suppose you don't understand how a mouse works, or don't use one in a capacity in which you'd be able to appreciate the differences the faster polling rate makes. But please go on to tell us how everything is useless if it contains numbers that are bigger than other numbers. Link
While often people do just buy things because "the numbers are bigger," i.e. camera megapixels, this isn't always the case and often it does make a difference, even if it's something you don't understand.
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I used to wear out a $15 - 30 rubber-dome keyboard about once a year. Then I spent ~$100 for a mechanical and 5 years later it works just as well as the day I got it.
20 USD is an expensive keyboard. None of my keyboard ever lasted less than 5 years. I can buy a cheap keyboard that lasts a year for 5 bucks. 100 for a keyboard is madness
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What do you people do with your keyboards?!
My keyboard at home is some Microsoft wireless keyboard from like 7 years ago, it's still working fine. The keyboards at work are the stock HP and Lenovo ones that came with the desktops... at least 3 years on, still going fine.
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What do you people do with your keyboards?!
I think I eventually spill something or the paint on the keys starts to wear off or whatever and then I go buy another $10 keyboard and I'm happy. But I just use them to type and stuff. The mouse handles all of my gaming requirements quite well, TYVM.
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What do you people do with your keyboards?!
On a good day, I can type 120 WPM. Cheap keyboards do not survive actual use.
My keyboard at home is some Microsoft wireless keyboard from like 7 years ago, it's still working fine. The keyboards at work are the stock HP and Lenovo ones that came with the desktops... at least 3 years on, still going fine.
One of my workstations at work had a cheap Dell keyboard, the kind that's standard-issue with any new workstation system. Probably cost all of $4. That keyboard lasted about three weeks before I had serious problems with some keys not working anymore. And that was a secondary workstation that only gets mild use.
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@mott555 said:
I can type 120 WPM.
Do you type with a hammer?!
Since I mostly use mechanical keyboards I could easily* type with a hammer without damaging anything.
* easily not damage anything, not easily type
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@mott555 said:
I used to wear out a $15 - 30 rubber-dome keyboard about once a year. Then I spent ~$100 for a mechanical and 5 years later it works just as well as the day I got it.
20 USD is an expensive keyboard. None of my keyboard ever lasted less than 5 years. I can buy a cheap keyboard that lasts a year for 5 bucks. 100 for a keyboard is madness
I got tired of replacing the damn things. It's a waste of my time to deal with a broken keyboard until I get the new one and my local selection are the kinds of places that would charge you $20 for a $5 keyboard (Big-Box stores).
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Mostly gaming and programming.
So, lots of (fairly quick, 50-60 WPM before accounting for all the @accalia's) typing when I'm being a good little worker bee.
And lots of hair-trigger button mashing with a fair amount of emphasis when I'm being lazy.
Plus, I have fairly thick fingers, so the itsy bitsy chiclet keyboards with no gap between keys and no curvature on the key drives me absolutely batshit insane.
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@loopback0 said:
@mott555 said:
I can type 120 WPM.
Do you type with a hammer?!
Since I mostly use mechanical keyboards I could easily* type with a hammer without damaging anything.
* easily not damage anything, not easily type
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I can type 120 WPM
Unfortunately, my internal processing makes achieving this impossible while maintaining intelligence behind the content.
For straight transcription though I can get to about 50...
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I've got a razor blackwidow, it occasionally double-registers keypresses which is annoying as hell. Nice keyboard otherwise.
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The only time I was having problems with that was due to hair buildup under the keys.
The keys are super easy to get off even without a specialized tool (though, of course, the proper tool is recommended, especially for the bigger keys), and the keyboard is really easy to clean.
Harder to remember to put the long keys on before you start putting the regular keys back together though. And to put the long keys on in the correct order (top of keyboard to bottom) so that you can get them all on without cussing too much.
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Do you throw them away when the keycaps are worn off, or do they actually not work?
I have like a first-gen Microsoft ComfortCurve 2000. The keycaps are all worn out except a few, but it still works as good as the day I unpacked it.
Mouses, now I wear those out all the time. I also buy RAT5 mouses, and while I love them, they ain't much in the "reliability" department.
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Well, with the cheapos, I had a tendency to actually break the switches, more so than just wearing away the labeling on the cap (besides, would anyone on this forum be even moderately hampered by a keyboard with no labels?). And a lot of the cheapos have switches like a laptop keyboard... once those flimsy little white hinge thingies, it's certainly not worth $20 worth of effort to fix, and I don't know if you even can fix it that quickly.
Mostly though, I'm a keyboard snob now that I've experienced the
soundfeel of the black widow.
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I suppose you don't understand how a mouse works, or don't use one in a capacity in which you'd be able to appreciate the differences the faster polling rate makes. But please go on to tell us how everything is useless if it contains numbers that are bigger than other numbers.
I didn't say it was useless. My point was that @cvi bought the mouse without knowing what a 1000Hz polling rate means (though I admit the polling rate wasn't necessarily a factor in that purchasing decision), so it's reasonable to assume that there's a segment of the population that will buy a mouse with a high polling rate because "it must be better".As the link you pointed me to says:
A higher polling rate could be useful, but the difference between 500 Hz and 1000 Hz will be hard to notice.
Frankly I don't see how it would be possible to notice the difference between a 125 Hz polling rate and a 500 Hz polling rate either, given that the reaction time of the nervous system is generally quoted to be around 1/10 of a second. I certainly admit I'm no expert on this, but that same article lists only one potential benefit of a higher polling rate:A higher polling rate could decrease the lag that occurs between when you move your mouse and when the movement shows up on your screen.
What difference does it make whether the mouse is polled at 125 Hz (every 0.008 seconds) or at 1000 Hz (0.001 seconds)? An increase in lag of 0.007 seconds is not going to be noticeable by anybody. For that matter, for something to show up on the screen you're going to be limited by the monitor refresh rate anyway.So yes, the conclusion I draw from the article you linked me to is basically that a high polling rate for a mouse is pointless. Did you have another one you wanted me to look at?
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My point was that @cvi bought the mouse without knowing what a 1000Hz polling rate means
To elaborate a bit on the original question - what I'm wondering is whether or not the mouse actually reports a new position to the host more often (i.e. at 1kHz), or if it just internally reads the sensor at a higher rate which allows it to (potentially) return more accurate readings.
Or maybe it's even just empty marketing numbers, I haven't seen anybody actually measure the precision or update rate in any reproducible manner.
(though I admit the polling rate wasn't necessarily a factor in that purchasing decision)
It wasn't. Neither was the X gazillion DPIs (although I have come to appreciate the on-mouse button for switching between different resolutions). Mostly I just find it a bit more comfy. Which, considering that I use the damn thing all day long, counts for something. Plus it looks cool.
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Nobody seems to have mentioned the real reason for using an expensive 'mechanical' keyboard with discrete keyswitches as opposed to a cheapo rubber dome (or worse, collapsing rubber tube) board (which are also mechanical, but which use a different mechanism). Which implies to me that most of the people commenting thus far have bought into the hype or "teh clicky" rather than the science of it.
The common rubber dome keyboard has keyswitches which comprise some sort of mechanism holding the keycaps, which impinges on a rubber dome. Pressing the keycap presses the dome, and the resistance of the key increases until the dome collapses. The resistance of the key then effectively drops to or below zero, the dome collapses completely, and a contact is made with the membrane underneath, thus closing the circuit. The actuation point of the switch is therefore at the point where the switch bottoms out.
A discrete keyswitch, on the other hand, has a "resistance profile" which is dissociated from the actuation point, and, most importantly, the actuation point is above the bottoming-out point of the switch. Using a discrete keyswitch allows one to choose the resistance profile and weight, click or silent, and so on by choice of keyswitch.
But the real win is that you no longer need to slam your fingers to the bottom of the keystroke. Actuation happens before bottoming out, which typing is vastly less tiring / damaging to your hands. It may also mean typing is faster, but the fact you're not slamming your fingertips into a hard surface with every keypress is the real win.
Sadly, though, most mechanical keyboards retain the QWERTY layout, with horizontally staggered keys and no thought for ergonomics. There's more ergonomic win to be had from a split, tented and profiled column-staggered keyboard with shit keyswitches than from a horizontally staggered board with the best switches in the world.
More than 2KRO is nice to have, and only absolutely necessary for gamers. Full NKRO is for e-peen only. And NCIS style "2 hackers, one keyboard" usage.
Remember, always check your URLS before clicking.
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Besides that they last longer, I really like how consistent the keys are on a mechanical. All too often the rubber dome types have one key that requires a certain force and other keys that have a totally different actuation force. There's no consistency, and I always end up with a few keys that don't register unless I press much harder than I'm used to.
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And NCIS style "2 hackers, one keyboard" usage.
Remember, always check your URLS before clicking.
Wow, the corp. firewall didn't catch that. Nice.Edit: WTF, it did get blocked on the Guest network though. :WTF:
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Sorry. Nice job you had there.
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Nice job you had there.
:giggi -- oh wait , probably not what you were going for.
TBH 2g1c is damn boring and unoriginal, 2/10 would not want to watch again.
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2/10 would not want to watch again.
I would have gone with swap.avi, but it didn't fit with the comment.
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Don't. Really. Just don't.
The Horrible Saga of SWAP.avi
The history and reality of SWAP.avi, the worst video clip ever unleashed upon the Internet, thanks to the horrible, disturbed mind of Goons.
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Just
Well, if it's making causing you warn me away, it must definitely be serious....
*reads article... *
Wow, a whole hour of this shit? The world is definitely more annoying now than it was previously.
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The resistance of the key then effectively drops to or below zero
Negative resistance? In a simple electrical switch? Really?
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Negative resistance? In a simple
electricalmechanical switch? Really?I think he means that the switch gains clairvoyance and pulls itself down (along with your finger) as you're typing. This has the obvious benefit of reducing strain and fatigue.
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Ugh. People who use "resistance" in the context of an electrical device to mean mechanical resistance without saying as much.
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There's more ergonomic win to be had from a split, tented and profiled column-staggered keyboard with shit keyswitches than from a horizontally staggered board with the best switches in the world.
There are some options if you don't mind spending $$$$:
Kinesis Advantage2 Ergonomic Keyboard
Split, contoured design that maximizes comfort and boosts productivity. Mechanical switches, onboard programmability and more.
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I got one of these (in black, black is cool):
Cost about $400 (IIRC), but it makes up for it in positional range. Wish I could get my office to buy one for me...
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People who use "resistance" in the context of an electrical device to mean mechanical resistance without saying as much.
I would have thought it obvious I was talking about armed resistance. Twat.
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I was just searching for a nice mechanical keyboard (my IBM keyboard of 15+ yo has died this weekend).
Luckily for you, they're still building those.
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I never could get used to writing on those broken up keyboards. Probably because I have this 8 finger typing system where sometimes my fingers are going into the others realm.
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How do you type with boxing gloves on?
